Bedding a marelon fitting

Rodd

.
Jan 22, 2008
148
Pearson 424 East Hampton,NY
hey Maine-

Going to replace two old plastic thru hulls at the water line (scupper drains) with 2 marelon thru hulls (no seacock). I have some boat life life seal. Would this be a good sealant to use with the marelon product? I usually use life caulk, but read that it is not to be used with plastic, while the life seal says ok for plastic, abs, lexan etc.]

what sealant do you recommend for installing marelon fittings?

Thanks.
 
Feb 6, 1998
11,676
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
hey Maine-

Going to replace two old plastic thru hulls at the water line (scupper drains) with 2 marelon thru hulls (no seacock). I have some boat life life seal. Would this be a good sealant to use with the marelon product? I usually use life caulk, but read that it is not to be used with plastic, while the life seal says ok for plastic, abs, lexan etc.]

what sealant do you recommend for installing marelon fittings?

Thanks.
I will not and do not use Life Seal below water because it contains silicone. I use Sikaflex 291 or 3M 4200 on flanged seacocks and I'd use 3M-5200 if just a thru-hull..
 
Jul 25, 2007
320
-Irwin -Citation 40 Wilmington, NC
Anytime you are bedding a plastic product you want to use either a silicone or silicone hybrid because plastics leach oils that cause most sealants not to stick well. For under the water I would use the hybrid like Life Seal or 3M 4000. This is the single biggest reason people have trouble with leaking plastic portlights leaking. Follow the manufactures instructions as well. The polyurethanes such as 4200 do not adhere well to plastics.

Capt. Wayne Canning, AMS
www.projectboatzen.com
 
Feb 6, 1998
11,676
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
Anytime you are bedding a plastic product you want to use either a silicone or silicone hybrid because plastics leach oils that cause most sealants not to stick well. For under the water I would use the hybrid like Life Seal or 3M 4000. This is the single biggest reason people have trouble with leaking plastic portlights leaking. Follow the manufactures instructions as well. The polyurethanes such as 4200 do not adhere well to plastics.

Capt. Wayne Canning, AMS
www.projectboatzen.com
Marelon can safely be used with PU sealants and Forespar specifically advises as such.

Sorry but you could not pay me to use any silicone or silicone hybrid below water... I have removed piles of 5200 and other PU bedded Marelon fittings and the fitting is usually destroyed in the process because it stuck too well...

Some sealants like polysulfides can leach plasticizers out of certain plastics. I don't use polysulfides with Marelon but they do suggest the Zytel can easily handle it..

3M marine silicone for example is recommended by 3M for above water use, not for below water use.. I've not even touched on future silicone contamination for the next time you replace a seacock..
 
Jul 25, 2007
320
-Irwin -Citation 40 Wilmington, NC
The hybrids work well but I will not get into arguing about it. There are many that simply refuse to understand the benefits of silicones because they have had bad experience with the cheap hardware store types. I know that those folks will never be convinced and I will continue to get paid to fix leaks because of the wrong sealant being used. Silicones are not all evil as some think. But everyone has to do what they feel most comfortable with. I have had a lot of success using silicones in the right application.
I generally do not like using polyurethanes below the water line due to their low oil resistance. Oils in the bilge can and will affect them as well as the oils in the plastics. Plastic is an oil based product after all.
I will suggest the PO read this article on sealants and then make their own educated decision. http://www.projectboatzen.com/forum/content/157-understanding-using-marine-sealants.html and perhaps do some of their own research.

Like a lot of things in life there is no single "right" answer.

Capt. Wayne Canning, AMS
www.projectboatzen.com
 
Jan 30, 2012
1,123
Nor'Sea 27 "Kiwanda" Portland/ Anacortes
It has - since at least the mid 1970's - been a complete mystery why anyone would deliberately use a product containing silicone - absent an express direction requiring its use from a component manufacturer.

Silicone components (hybrid or not) contaminate every surface it touches. When rebedding time comes around - nothing will seal where silicone was used. When paint time comes around nothing will stick. I cannot think of a serious rebedding project that did not fail where silicone had been used. Neither have I been able to find any solvent that will successfully remove silicone remnants. Silicone products are most prone to attracting mold seemingly no matter the formula.

Absent an express sealant threat to a plastic part - a threat that only silicone will avoid - boat components and surfaces should be kept silicone free. Silicone products offer no advantage over other options like Boat Life's Life Calk (not Life Seal) Sika products, and some polyurethane 3M products.

Charles
 
Jul 25, 2007
320
-Irwin -Citation 40 Wilmington, NC
Like all things silicone can and will fail when not used properly. The statements you make could be applied to most sealants. There was a time when everyone thought 5200 was THE only sealant to use. I have been working professionally in the marine industry for 40 years now and have seen silicone used successfully many times, in fact it is the only sealant recommended by many product manufactures. There is a reason silicone is made and sold and used successfully in many industries from construction to aircraft and yes even boats. I know there are those out there that I will never convince, so be it. But I stand by my experience as an engineer and marine professional silicone can and is used successfully every day on boats and should be used when plastics are involved. Why do I stand by this? Simply put, because I screwed up and believed what some others do, that it was not a good sealant but I learned. I have spend hours and days cleaning up the other wonder sealants when they failed miserably. If you do not believe me do the research I did and I learned. I am not going to convince everyone but that is ok

Capt. Wayne Canning, AMS
www.projectboatzen.com
 
Jan 30, 2012
1,123
Nor'Sea 27 "Kiwanda" Portland/ Anacortes
Through hulls get installed/bedded with the compound the manufacturer says.

As to other cases, please understand that the silicone "problem" does not arise in a first application case. It arises when one needs to attempt a reinstall/reseal of a component. Using 5200 as an example is simply not in point. Everyone agrees 5200 is not suitable for use as bedding material - either to start with or in refastening cases.

You ask what component fastenings fail when rebedding after a prior use of silicone material?

We all agree - no silicone sealant below the waterline. Otherwise, the list includes stanchion bases, dorade box to ventilator fittings, deck box cleats/fasteners, dorade box cleat/fasteners, winch bases, genoa track fasteners, cockpit scuppers/bilge pump discharge fittings at the water line, portlight spigots at the clamp ring-cabin side joint, tabernacles, cable through deck fittings.

We are all willing to learn. So please cite to the articles/research that explain why materials containing silicone are superior to polysulphide or polyurethane. (And - please do not cite cases where the odd manufacturer of plastic components specifically states that silicone is the only compound that must be used for his particular component - these are exceptions.)

Also - absent specific plastic cases - please cite any experiments/experiences you have personally conducted which support your conclusion that silicone containing materials offer any advantage to the other compounds we have mentioned.

Charles
 
Jul 25, 2007
320
-Irwin -Citation 40 Wilmington, NC
Like I say I m not going to get into an endless argument here it is clear your mind is made up. I suggest you read my article sited in a previous post I did a fair amount of research for that. This article will explain where silicone is the correct sealant to use. Like I said silicone is best when bedding plastics. The reason is very simple plastics leach oils and most sealants will not adhere well to them in the long run. this is where silicone is superior.There is no one sealant that is good for everything. All have there place and use.

For personal experience on my own boat which I have been restoring since I purchased it as insurance salvage 6 years ago. last summer I sailed from NC to Bermuda and back. The return trip was an unpleasant 10 day slog into 20 knot headwinds and 6-8 seas. over those 10 days we took thousands of gallons of water over the decks. Not one fitting I sealed with silicone leaks at all. The hull deck joint sealed with Butyl tape leaked like a sieve. Of course that sealant was 30+ years old and long dried out.
And like I say I have been in the boat business for 40 years I have seen lots of failures, one learns from those years and failures.

I have learned there simply is no winning an internet argument and I do not think anything I say will change your mind and that is fine.
 
Jan 30, 2012
1,123
Nor'Sea 27 "Kiwanda" Portland/ Anacortes
Capt. Wayne Canning

My mind is hardly "made up." And - by the way - discussions in this forum are not a contest in which there are winners or losers.

In this case - I simply asked for citations to articles/personal research that would be useful in testing a conclusion that silicone materials present any advantage over other materials.

In short, I am asking what facts lead us to ignore the adhesion risks attendant to using silicone. If adhesion risks cannot be eliminated then why should we ever use silicone?

Charles
 
Jul 25, 2007
320
-Irwin -Citation 40 Wilmington, NC
I thought I provided what you asked for. Did you read the article?

If you would like to continue this discussion I would in turn like you to provide citations to articles/personal research that would be useful in testing a conclusion that silicone materials present any disadvantage over other materials when used as I suggested.

It would also be helpful to know your expertise and background with using sealants in the marine industry.

Thanks
Capt. Wayne Canning, AMS
www.projectboatzen.com
 
Nov 9, 2008
115
Pearson 323 Bayfield
There are facts and there are facts...

Everyone contributing sounds logical and knowledgable. Yet there is strong disagreement. Ergo; the truth is not known. Or perhaps it's just that there is more than one way to skin a cat... or seal a deck fitting. Although the thread has lots of facts I see no data. Are there any valid studies giving objective data regarding sealant/adhesive?

I'm neither expert nor experienced in the topic. I have refurbished my boat and spent a great deal of time reading about the "right" way of doing things. It all leads back to the second line; the truth is not known.

My opinion, FWIW;

Adhesion and sealing are two entirely different qualities and should not be discussed together except when it is necessary to do both with one product. It rarely is.

It is rarely necessary to use adhesion in boating applications. Look at the bolts holding your stations onboard, or your cleats, or your deck. If they are through bolted with proper backing that piece of hardware is not going to break loose. The deck will break first. So forget about adhesion. It's superfluous.

Boat hardware moves, no matter how tight the bolts are applied. A sealant must be flexible and able to expand and contract without losing its integrity. It must be non porous to water. It's interface with the metal and fiberglass must also form a non-porous interface, even when the two surfaces vary their distance.

Most calking products do this if applied properly. Thus the discussion needed is which product survives the environment it is used in. This discussion and sailvayu's article seem to cover this nicely. The debate points out there is a lot we don't know which leads to strong opinions. That's what makes life fun. Keep smiling. Shake hands. Sit down over a beer and talk about your sailing adventures.

Geoff
 
Jul 25, 2007
320
-Irwin -Citation 40 Wilmington, NC
Hi Goeff

Thanks for a rational post. Let me make a couple of points.

First you concussion about adhesion is somewhat wrong but I understand what you are saying. Adhesion is important as most sealants fail when they come loose from the surface they are sealing. This will allow moisture to seep in further causing release. You will see this when you remove a leaking fitting and see some parts come off easy while others stick very well. I have removed many fittings put down with 5200 that lifted the gel goat in some places while you could clearly see water stains in other areas that had let go of the surface. So a sealant must stick well to the surface. I think what you are talking about is the sealant strength or it ability to hold together, ie tensile strength. 5200 being very high on this scale butyl very low. So you want your sealant to adhere well although may not need a lot of strength.

The thing is most people working on boats need to understand is that there is no one sealant that will work in all applications. You have to use the correct sealant in the correct application. I get frustrated when someone makes the blanket statement that one sealant is better than others and the only one to use or that another should never be used at all. When I hear statements like that I know the person does not have a clear understanding of how sealants work.

Having been in the marine industry for 40 years building and repairing boats I have a large history to draw from and have learned what works where. This has been through trial and error on my boats and other peoples boats. 35 years ago everyone thought butyl was the best thing going, 20 years ago we all thought 5200 was, we have since learned. I have had the rare opportunity to survey boats I personally built 20 years before, very educational to say the least. (And yes I did make mistakes)

There are those out there that simply refuse to understand that silicone does have a place in boats and when used correctly will outperform most other sealants. It will remain flexible far longer than most other sealants, it has some of the best UV resistant of the marine sealants, it is high temperature resistance (Ever take the temp of an aluminum fitting on a hot summer day?) and most importantly it is one of the few sealants that will stick to plastics for the reasons I stated before. These are facts not opinions based of years of testing. The contamination argument is a myth and it is no worse than any other sealant other than paint will not stick to it so it makes it more noticeable as you cannot paint over the film. Cleaning takes the same care as with any other sealant when uncured and with the correct solvent no harder.

I am happy to continue a discussion on this subject but not if someone is just going to respond “You should never use sillycone” those folks clearly have made up their minds and that is fine, I am trying to help educate those that are open to understanding.

Capt. Wayne Canning, AMS
www.projectboatzen.com
 

FredV

.
Oct 16, 2011
148
Hunter 37-cutter Philadelphia, PA
I can understand why so many people have differing opinions on this (and just about everything else!), since opinions are usually based on experience, and many people have many different experiences. What I don't understand, however, is why someone would question using what the manufacturer specifically recommends.

Forespar's instructions for bedding their Marelon thru-hulls recommend using 3M 5200, so why would one question this? Wouldn't the manufacturer know best what bedding adhesive to use with their product?

I'm very interested in this discussion as I'm getting ready to replace all thru-hulls on my Hunter 37-C, and am now wondering how reliable manufacturers' recommendations actually are.
 
Nov 9, 2008
115
Pearson 323 Bayfield
Thanks, Capt. Wayne,

I tried a reply but it appears to be lost. If this is a duplicate I apologize.

Your explanation makes sense. If the sealant doesn't stick to the parts it is sealing it won't work. Thus the sealant has to have enough adhesion to retain contact with a moving part and enough flexibility to expand it's thickness as the part moves. But it doesn't have to be relied on to hold the part to the boat?

An interesting aside, my Pearson had rubber gaskets under its stanchion bases when I pulled them at 25 yrs age. There had been no leaks that I could see. They were, however, hard and with little flexibility. Ready, I think, to leak any day.

I used Boatlife's Life-Calk for re-bedding. So far (4 yrs) it's been fine. Boatlife has a chart on their sealants here. http://www.boatlife.com/media/img/Boatlife-Sealant-Chart-20121220.jpg. Interestingly, their write up makes silicone look great but their ratings on it are mediocre. I suspect commercialism is leading them to go with the flow of consumer opinion. Any thoughts about Boatlife products? My boat is full of it.

Geoff
 
Jul 25, 2007
320
-Irwin -Citation 40 Wilmington, NC
Fred
I looked on Forespar's site and this is what I found "Bedding compounds such as 3M’s #5200, Sikaflex or Boatlife are to be recommended as well as others that are equally suitable."
So they seem to be saying use almost anything. That said I have used 3M 4000 (a hybrid) with success. Boatlife lifeseal another hybrid is also good and is approved for underwater. But if you do not feel at all comfortable with that the next best choice would be a Polysulfide like Boatlife. I would not use 5200. After having fixed many failures of 5200 I use it for very little these days, more as an adhesive than a sealant. It does glue crap together really well as we all know!

Geoff
I like Boatlife products and have been using them for nearly 40 years now and can say had few problems in that time. Polysulfide is a good general purpose sealant that can be used above and below the waterline. Boatlife also makes lifeseal which is a hybrid that so far seems very good.

Sealants and sealing is a complicated subject and there is a lot to understand but it must be kept in mind that even the best sealant will not work well if poorly applied or applied in the wrong application. You can likewise get good results from a poor sealant if you have done a good job of preparing your parts prior to installation. Like a lot of things in life the trick is to achieve a good balance. Use a good sealant that is right for the job with reasonable care in application and you will have good results.

Thanks
Capt. Wayne Canning, AMS
www.projectboatzen.com
 
Feb 6, 1998
11,676
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
Guys,

The original question was specifically about a Marelon thru-hull fitting not about other deck hardware.

Fact: Marelon/Zytel does not give off "oils" that cause adhesion problems. This is a fiberglass/nylon based product not a typical acrylic, ABS, PVC or polycarbonate "plastic".

Fact: Forespar specifically advises the use of polyurethane sealants (3M 4200, 3M 5200 Sika 291 etc..) with Marelon. They also say "Life Seal" is okay to use because it is not a pure silicone. They even say polysulfides are fine for use with Marelon. Other plastics can be badly damaged by polysulfides but not Zytel.

Fact: The only sealant Forespar specifically says not to use with Marelon are silicone sealants.

You are always welcome to speak with Art or Randy at Forespar and confirm these points but they are simply the facts straight from the manufacturer..

Fact: 3M Marine Silicone is not recommended for below water use.

Fact: Boat Life Marine Silicone is not recommended for below water use.

These facts are right in the tech data sheets for 3M and Boat Life.


Yes, MANY items above water require the use of a silicone. Beckson products, acrylic or polycarbonate ports or hatches are but some. Silicone does have uses on boats, and I do use it, where I have to.

I just will not personally use any product below water that contains a silicone and this includes Life Seal. I have not personally found Life Seal to be as reliable a sealant as some of the others. I like their polysulfide but don't find it nearly as good a polysulfide as the old 3M 101, which was unfortunately discontinued. Still I like polysulfides for certain uses.

I have also found cleaning the silicone contamination left over from Life Seal to be just as difficult as cleaning any other silicone. Future adhesion issues will arise if you do not 100% remove the contamination. If paint won't stick neither will a sealant for very long. I have piles of cases I can cite where silicone contamination has been a HUGE issue. I don't see these issues with polyurethanes, polysulfides or even the newer polyether sealants.

The biggest issue with ANY sealant is improper preparation and cleaning of the fitting and surfaces to be bedded. This is what leads to failures of any sealant. I have a number of vessels I work on that had seacocks bedded with non-silicone marine sealants over 40 years ago that are still leak free.

That said the OP really should have a valve on that thru-hull if it is below max heeled waterline...


Off Topic:

Most don't know this but for nearly two years I have been working with multiple chemical manufacturers who make "silicone removers" to come up with a product that works on gelcoat and fiberglass. As of yet none tested have been both safe for the fiberglass and also good at removing the silicone contamination.

My ultimate goal is to market a product, if I can come up with a formulation that works as advertised. I have probably done more physical testing of silicone removal on fiberglass substrates than anyone else in the marine industry. It has cost me well into the four figures category and as of yet NOTHING has proven to work. I have also tested every single "internet cocktail" to be mentioned and none of those has even come close to working.
 
Jul 25, 2007
320
-Irwin -Citation 40 Wilmington, NC
The hybrids are approved for below the waterline use but you are correct the pure silicones are not.

If you are having trouble cleaning the sealants you may not be using the right solvents to do this. Check the manufactures recommendations.

You use the term contamination but this is a bit misleading as all sealants will leave a film when wiped down. So all sealants will "contaminate" the surrounding surface. I think the reason you are calling it contamination is mainly because paint will not adhere to it. With other films left from other sealants you can paint over the film. So if paint is to be used it would be good to use a hybrid. With all sealants careful cleanup and using the correct solvent is important. As a matter of fact using the wrong solvent can often lead to premature sealant failure. 5200 in particularly sensitive to this.

Thanks
Capt. Wayne Canning, AMS
www.projectboatzen.com