Battery setup

[ian19147]

Why bother with 1-2-BOTH ?

BillWith a simple ON/Off switch you never have to worry about, "So start with the starter battery, then ADD the second / alternate battery, then turn off the starter battery." When you turn the switch to ON, you are turning on both banks and with the use of the combiner, you will be charging both banks. You don't switch from one bank to the other. It's idiot proof, even I can't screw it up.

 

[ian19147]

Why bother with 1-2-BOTH ?

BillWith a simple ON/Off switch you never have to worry about, "So start with the starter battery, then ADD the second / alternate battery, then turn off the starter battery." When you turn the switch to ON, you are turning on both banks and with the use of the combiner, you will be charging both banks. You don't switch from one bank to the other. It's idiot proof, even I can't screw it up.

 

[Daniel Jonas]

1-2-Both

I agree with the idea of having the system charging be as simple as possible, and if you are going to hook everything up to one switch, why bother with a 1-2-Both switch. It just adds confusion. However, what about the switch for the starter battery, or are you wiring it direct to the starter with no way to disconnect? And, what if the starter bank is dead and you need the house bank to start?The point of a 1-2-Both is to allow selection and to allow the house bank to be used to start if the starter battery dies. The discussions here about eliminating the 1-2-Both switch for an on-off switch fail to mention that you will need two on-off switches...one for the house and one for the starter battery. And, if you have a combiner that allows it, you can parellel with the combiner, but if not, you need another on-off switch to allow for combining. In fact, you should have a physical way to combine just in case the combiner fails. So now you have three on-off switches.If you want simplicity and low cost (no combiner) than use the 1-2-Both switch and wire th starter battery to 1, the house to 2. When you start use either 1 or 2, does not normally matter much, but 1 will produce proof that the starter battery is sufficient. Then switch to both for 15 minutes or until you turn of the engine then switch to 2 (this assumes that the starter/alternator wire is attached to the common side of the switch, not always so). Don't turn the switch through Off while doing so. Simple, and not a major catastophe if you don't get it done right away.If you have a few more bucks, install a combiner and you only need to start on 1 to prove the starter battery is up and then immediately switch to 2 and leave it there. Both will be your physical back-up if the combiner fails.Or take a look at the Blue Sea 8080 panel. I don't have one, but it is one of the most straight forward and understandable battery management systems for a small sailboat with one house bank and a starter bank. Just add a combiner and you never have to switch anything.On our 356 we have a 1-2-Both that is hooked to our house batteries. House 1 and House 2. We have a separate on-off for the starter and a combiner. I know we could parellel the house 4D's on one side of the switch, but I like the idea of using one at a time. Someone here mentioned changing from one to another each day. We do that. Our batteries actually do not hook to the DC panel throught the 1-2-Both switch, but are bypassed to a circuit breaker that only allows one battery to be selected at a time (lockout). The 1-2-Both switch just selects the battery to send the charge too. And yes, we have an additional on-off switch down near the combiner to physically bypass it if it fails.The point is, you need to understand what you have before you decide how you want to modify it. It just does not make sense to have a lot of circuits or switch positions that do nothing. In a pinch or with an unfamiliar crew, it can just lead to things being more difficult.Dan Jonas (S/V Feije II)

 

[Daniel Jonas]

1-2-Both

I agree with the idea of having the system charging be as simple as possible, and if you are going to hook everything up to one switch, why bother with a 1-2-Both switch. It just adds confusion. However, what about the switch for the starter battery, or are you wiring it direct to the starter with no way to disconnect? And, what if the starter bank is dead and you need the house bank to start?The point of a 1-2-Both is to allow selection and to allow the house bank to be used to start if the starter battery dies. The discussions here about eliminating the 1-2-Both switch for an on-off switch fail to mention that you will need two on-off switches...one for the house and one for the starter battery. And, if you have a combiner that allows it, you can parellel with the combiner, but if not, you need another on-off switch to allow for combining. In fact, you should have a physical way to combine just in case the combiner fails. So now you have three on-off switches.If you want simplicity and low cost (no combiner) than use the 1-2-Both switch and wire th starter battery to 1, the house to 2. When you start use either 1 or 2, does not normally matter much, but 1 will produce proof that the starter battery is sufficient. Then switch to both for 15 minutes or until you turn of the engine then switch to 2 (this assumes that the starter/alternator wire is attached to the common side of the switch, not always so). Don't turn the switch through Off while doing so. Simple, and not a major catastophe if you don't get it done right away.If you have a few more bucks, install a combiner and you only need to start on 1 to prove the starter battery is up and then immediately switch to 2 and leave it there. Both will be your physical back-up if the combiner fails.Or take a look at the Blue Sea 8080 panel. I don't have one, but it is one of the most straight forward and understandable battery management systems for a small sailboat with one house bank and a starter bank. Just add a combiner and you never have to switch anything.On our 356 we have a 1-2-Both that is hooked to our house batteries. House 1 and House 2. We have a separate on-off for the starter and a combiner. I know we could parellel the house 4D's on one side of the switch, but I like the idea of using one at a time. Someone here mentioned changing from one to another each day. We do that. Our batteries actually do not hook to the DC panel throught the 1-2-Both switch, but are bypassed to a circuit breaker that only allows one battery to be selected at a time (lockout). The 1-2-Both switch just selects the battery to send the charge too. And yes, we have an additional on-off switch down near the combiner to physically bypass it if it fails.The point is, you need to understand what you have before you decide how you want to modify it. It just does not make sense to have a lot of circuits or switch positions that do nothing. In a pinch or with an unfamiliar crew, it can just lead to things being more difficult.Dan Jonas (S/V Feije II)

 

[Bill18593]

Fred and Gord,

I read the thread as wanting to bypass some of the electrical switches and add an external switch to manage the battery that's specifically used for starting. When switching, the house batteries need to be added to the circuit BEFORE the starting battery is removed. Or at least a load needs to be present against the alternator during the switching.BTW, don't figure that all battery chargers are safe to disconnect when they are shut off. I have a small charger that continues to run its fan from battery current even after its disconnected from the AC. So there is still a small spark when the clips are pulled off of the battery. If the battery is gassing, there may be a little "pop". I hope I'm not standing near when that happens. (I'll get the manufacturer and model if you're interested)

 

[Bill18593]

Fred and Gord,

I read the thread as wanting to bypass some of the electrical switches and add an external switch to manage the battery that's specifically used for starting. When switching, the house batteries need to be added to the circuit BEFORE the starting battery is removed. Or at least a load needs to be present against the alternator during the switching.BTW, don't figure that all battery chargers are safe to disconnect when they are shut off. I have a small charger that continues to run its fan from battery current even after its disconnected from the AC. So there is still a small spark when the clips are pulled off of the battery. If the battery is gassing, there may be a little "pop". I hope I'm not standing near when that happens. (I'll get the manufacturer and model if you're interested)

 

[Fred Ficarra]

This is why I chickened out.

Whew!On my system, well, there's nothing to do. The shore-power comes into the boat and goes to the Prosine. That inverter then syncs the shore power Hz to its' own output and then switches over. There is no loss of service. Then the 100 amp charger takes over to top up the batteries. The computer distributes incoming power as demand dictates up to the capacity of the shore power breaker, as the computer was programmed by the owner. At reversal, with the inverter on standby, disconnecting shore-power causes instantaneous activation of inverter power. Only a slight flicker of AC lights can be observed. All this is automatic. I do nothing. Whew, again. Happy holidays

 

[Fred Ficarra]

This is why I chickened out.

Whew!On my system, well, there's nothing to do. The shore-power comes into the boat and goes to the Prosine. That inverter then syncs the shore power Hz to its' own output and then switches over. There is no loss of service. Then the 100 amp charger THAT'S BUILT IN to the ProSine takes over to top up the batteries. The computer distributes incoming power as demand dictates up to the capacity of the shore power breaker, as the computer was programmed by the owner. At reversal, with the inverter on standby, disconnecting shore-power causes instantaneous activation of inverter power. Only a slight flicker of AC lights can be observed. All this is automatic. I do nothing. Whew, again. Happy holidays

 

[Daryl2400]

K.I.S.S.

Keep is simple ......Buy a West Marine Combiner. When any battery (starter or house bank) is being charge they're all hooked together. When nothing is being charged and one pukes they're all not dragged down. Charge them from a alternator, charger or an inverter. No switches, diodes or fuss and it's IDIOT PROOF. IT WORKS!

 

[Daryl2400]

K.I.S.S.

Keep is simple ......Buy a West Marine Combiner. When any battery (starter or house bank) is being charge they're all hooked together. When nothing is being charged and one pukes they're all not dragged down. Charge them from a alternator, charger or an inverter. No switches, diodes or fuss and it's IDIOT PROOF. IT WORKS!

 

[ian19147]

Simplicity ? I don't think so!!!

Daniel wrote: "If you want simplicity and low cost (no combiner) than use the 1-2-Both switch and wire th starter battery to 1, the house to 2. When you start use either 1 or 2, does not normally matter much, but 1 will produce proof that the starter battery is sufficient. Then switch to both for 15 minutes or until you turn of the engine then switch to 2 (this assumes that the starter/alternator wire is attached to the common side of the switch, not always so). Don't turn the switch through Off while doing so." Daniel, no offense, but this sounds like a chinese fire drill. You are correct in pointing out that an ON/OFF switch is needed at the starter battery but it is rarely used. In three years, I think I have turned it OFF 5-6 times while doing work on the system. You asked: "what if the starter bank is dead and you need the house bank to start?" The WM Combiners have an emergency parallel switch.Daryl - You hit the nail on the head. Combiners are the way to go!!!!

 

[ian19147]

Simplicity ? I don't think so!!!

Daniel wrote: "If you want simplicity and low cost (no combiner) than use the 1-2-Both switch and wire th starter battery to 1, the house to 2. When you start use either 1 or 2, does not normally matter much, but 1 will produce proof that the starter battery is sufficient. Then switch to both for 15 minutes or until you turn of the engine then switch to 2 (this assumes that the starter/alternator wire is attached to the common side of the switch, not always so). Don't turn the switch through Off while doing so." Daniel, no offense, but this sounds like a chinese fire drill. You are correct in pointing out that an ON/OFF switch is needed at the starter battery but it is rarely used. In three years, I think I have turned it OFF 5-6 times while doing work on the system. You asked: "what if the starter bank is dead and you need the house bank to start?" The WM Combiners have an emergency parallel switch.Daryl - You hit the nail on the head. Combiners are the way to go!!!!

 

[Daniel Jonas]

Combiner

Ian,The point of my post was that the posts were talking about single on-off switches as a solution over a 1-2-Both. It takes three on-off switches to reproduce the same capabilities of a 1-2-Both switch.Actually, what I described is how most boats in a 30-36 foot range are delivered (at least the 15 or 20 I've spent time on), and really does not take much effort to accomplish. Start in 1, immediately move it to both, when you shut the motor off, turn it to 2. If that's a fire drill would hate to be along when something complicated has to be accomplished.If your combiner actually fails, you won't be able to effect the use of your house batteries without moving wires. Parelleling through the combiner requires it to be operational. The emergency switch just overrides the voltage connect setting and keeps it there for five minutes (I think that is the right amount of time). Dead combiner, no override. We tried to design the system on the larger boat to deal with a certain amount of equipment failure without immediate consequences. Hence, the physical bypass switch and separation of the 4D house batteries. Must be the old pilot in me.You have only turned off your start battery 5-6 times in three years? Mine is off right now and any time we are not using it. I figure the fewer wires that are hot when I'm off the boat, the better. My house bank remains on 1 or 2, really does not matter as the combiner takes care of the charging. So, I only really have one more switch than you and that provides me the physical ability to bypass the combiner. I'm not sure how I could make it simpler to operate (minimum switch movements) or more redundant.Keep in mined here Ian, I have two boats. The smaller boat is wired without a combiner and does require you to think about switch position while charging off the alternator. We set up the larger , boat to produce the same flexibility without having to move the switches except to manage resources.Again, the system you choose should be safe. After that, do whatever works best for the way you use the boat. Not everyone can or wants to invest in anything more than a few batteries and a single 1-2-Both switch. By remembering where those switches need to be, they probably have saved themselves a fair amount of money. And their system is actually pretty simply to trouble shoot.Dan Jonas (S/V Feije II)

 

[Daniel Jonas]

Combiner

Ian,The point of my post was that the posts were talking about single on-off switches as a solution over a 1-2-Both. It takes three on-off switches to reproduce the same capabilities of a 1-2-Both switch.Actually, what I described is how most boats in a 30-36 foot range are delivered (at least the 15 or 20 I've spent time on), and really does not take much effort to accomplish. Start in 1, immediately move it to both, when you shut the motor off, turn it to 2. If that's a fire drill would hate to be along when something complicated has to be accomplished.If your combiner actually fails, you won't be able to effect the use of your house batteries without moving wires. Parelleling through the combiner requires it to be operational. The emergency switch just overrides the voltage connect setting and keeps it there for five minutes (I think that is the right amount of time). Dead combiner, no override. We tried to design the system on the larger boat to deal with a certain amount of equipment failure without immediate consequences. Hence, the physical bypass switch and separation of the 4D house batteries. Must be the old pilot in me.You have only turned off your start battery 5-6 times in three years? Mine is off right now and any time we are not using it. I figure the fewer wires that are hot when I'm off the boat, the better. My house bank remains on 1 or 2, really does not matter as the combiner takes care of the charging. So, I only really have one more switch than you and that provides me the physical ability to bypass the combiner. I'm not sure how I could make it simpler to operate (minimum switch movements) or more redundant.Keep in mined here Ian, I have two boats. The smaller boat is wired without a combiner and does require you to think about switch position while charging off the alternator. We set up the larger , boat to produce the same flexibility without having to move the switches except to manage resources.Again, the system you choose should be safe. After that, do whatever works best for the way you use the boat. Not everyone can or wants to invest in anything more than a few batteries and a single 1-2-Both switch. By remembering where those switches need to be, they probably have saved themselves a fair amount of money. And their system is actually pretty simply to trouble shoot.Dan Jonas (S/V Feije II)

 

[Tantallon]

Thanks

Daniel, Thanks for your reply. This appears to be what I was looking for and I don't mind flipping switches when needed. It becomes automatic after awhile. Thanks, Paul

 

[Tantallon]

Thanks

Daniel, Thanks for your reply. This appears to be what I was looking for and I don't mind flipping switches when needed. It becomes automatic after awhile. Thanks, Paul