I have an O'Day 31 and presently have two #27 hybrid batteries which are used for starting and house.They are 4 years old and came with the boat. I was thinking of installing a starting battery on the #1 switch position and hooking up the two older hybrids in parallel to each other for house use only on the #2 switch position. I was also thinking of trying the trick where a diode is inserted in the regulator sensing circuit to fool the regulator into producing a higher charge rate. This helps charge the battery faster on a sailboat that doesn't use its engine for a long period of time. I read this in " Troubleshootig Marine Diesels" by Peter Compton. Comments please.
Battery setup
- Thread starter Tantallon
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- Status
I have an O'Day 31 and presently have two #27 hybrid batteries which are used for starting and house.They are 4 years old and came with the boat. I was thinking of installing a starting battery on the #1 switch position and hooking up the two older hybrids in parallel to each other for house use only on the #2 switch position. I was also thinking of trying the trick where a diode is inserted in the regulator sensing circuit to fool the regulator into producing a higher charge rate. This helps charge the battery faster on a sailboat that doesn't use its engine for a long period of time. I read this in " Troubleshootig Marine Diesels" by Peter Compton. Comments please.
Tantallon: There is another way to do it. I'm not a fan of a parallel battery system. If you have a problem with one battery in a parallel system it will drag the other battery down with it. I prefer to have my 3 batteries stand alone. In other words, I have a starting battery and house battery #1 and #2 (both house batts are group 30). I also have installed a regulator I purchased from a company in Newport Beach, Ca that fools the voltage regulator thus allowing for a faster charge. With your normal alternator, you will never get a full charge because the voltage regulator will kick off way before the full charge point. Here's how my system works and all I had to purchase was a simple Guest on/of switch. To start the boat, I switch ON the starting battery. Once the engine is running, I leave the start battery on for about 15 minutes. At that point, and this is very important, I turn the boat Guest switch to the 2 battery position thus now charging both house batteries. NEVER TURN THE STARTING BATTERY TO OFF BEFORE YOU SWITCH THE HOUSE BATTS TO ON. I then switch OFF the starting battery and it just sits there doing nothing until the next starting sequence. At anchor, I use house battery #1 on odd days and house battery #2 on even days. In the morning at anchor, I fire up the boat, charge up the starting battery and then engage both house batteries. Then I switch to the house battery I used the previous day, turn on the alternator devise and charge the depleted battery. It sounds complicated but it isn't. I have never had a battery problem since I switched to the stand alone setup.
Tantallon: There is another way to do it. I'm not a fan of a parallel battery system. If you have a problem with one battery in a parallel system it will drag the other battery down with it. I prefer to have my 3 batteries stand alone. In other words, I have a starting battery and house battery #1 and #2 (both house batts are group 30). I also have installed a regulator I purchased from a company in Newport Beach, Ca that fools the voltage regulator thus allowing for a faster charge. With your normal alternator, you will never get a full charge because the voltage regulator will kick off way before the full charge point. Here's how my system works and all I had to purchase was a simple Guest on/of switch. To start the boat, I switch ON the starting battery. Once the engine is running, I leave the start battery on for about 15 minutes. At that point, and this is very important, I turn the boat Guest switch to the 2 battery position thus now charging both house batteries. NEVER TURN THE STARTING BATTERY TO OFF BEFORE YOU SWITCH THE HOUSE BATTS TO ON. I then switch OFF the starting battery and it just sits there doing nothing until the next starting sequence. At anchor, I use house battery #1 on odd days and house battery #2 on even days. In the morning at anchor, I fire up the boat, charge up the starting battery and then engage both house batteries. Then I switch to the house battery I used the previous day, turn on the alternator devise and charge the depleted battery. It sounds complicated but it isn't. I have never had a battery problem since I switched to the stand alone setup.
Switch positions
Thanks for your quick reply. I think I understand you, but is this correct. Your old 1-2-both switch is used for the house system. After starting your engine and running for 15 min.( do you believe this is enough to charge fully?) you leave the start battery connected to the alternator while you connect both house batteries via the both setting on the old switch. This charges both house batteries and you could switch the 1-2-both switch to the house battery you used the previous evening for further charging. If you left the new start switch in the on position and the old 1-2-both in the both position would you then charge all the batteries? Could you give me the name of the company that sold you the hi charge rate regulator?
Thanks for your quick reply. I think I understand you, but is this correct. Your old 1-2-both switch is used for the house system. After starting your engine and running for 15 min.( do you believe this is enough to charge fully?) you leave the start battery connected to the alternator while you connect both house batteries via the both setting on the old switch. This charges both house batteries and you could switch the 1-2-both switch to the house battery you used the previous evening for further charging. If you left the new start switch in the on position and the old 1-2-both in the both position would you then charge all the batteries? Could you give me the name of the company that sold you the hi charge rate regulator?
Switch positions
Thanks for your quick reply. I think I understand you, but is this correct. Your old 1-2-both switch is used for the house system. After starting your engine and running for 15 min.( do you believe this is enough to charge fully?) you leave the start battery connected to the alternator while you connect both house batteries via the both setting on the old switch. This charges both house batteries and you could switch the 1-2-both switch to the house battery you used the previous evening for further charging. If you left the new start switch in the on position and the old 1-2-both in the both position would you then charge all the batteries? Could you give me the name of the company that sold you the hi charge rate regulator?
Thanks for your quick reply. I think I understand you, but is this correct. Your old 1-2-both switch is used for the house system. After starting your engine and running for 15 min.( do you believe this is enough to charge fully?) you leave the start battery connected to the alternator while you connect both house batteries via the both setting on the old switch. This charges both house batteries and you could switch the 1-2-both switch to the house battery you used the previous evening for further charging. If you left the new start switch in the on position and the old 1-2-both in the both position would you then charge all the batteries? Could you give me the name of the company that sold you the hi charge rate regulator?
Tantallon: Yes, 15 minutes is more than adequate to put the charge back into the starting battery. It just takes seconds to turn over the engine as I did not take a lot of juice out of it. I took a lot of strain out of the glo plug circuit, which made the engine start sequence much easier on the battery. On the older Catalina 30, the glo plug wiring goes all the way to the cockpit and then back to the glo plug, which results in a big voltage drop. I replaced that long wire run to about 1'. Now, about 5 seconds is all that is required to heat up the glo plugs. If you wanted to, you could charge the 3 batteries all the time but it is not necessary. The voltage regulator kicks in to prevent over charging so it is unnecessary to charge the starting battery all the time but you could if you wanted to. Additionally, when I was doing all this, I replaced the inadequate #4 wire with #1 wire. I think the batteries and alternator liked that better. The company I use was Lewco Electric Co, 456 Old Newport Blvd, Newport Beach, Ca. (949)548-8383. Originally, I looked at the systems WM sells but they were too complicated for my non electric background to hook up. With the Lewco, I took my alternator to them and they hooked up the system and all I had to do was mount it. It turned out that I was glad I brought the alternator to them because they found I had a couple of defective diodes. Had I tried to hook up a WN system, it never would have worked and I would have had no idea why it wouldn't. I think I have a picture of the Lewco on my web site. Send me an email at yankee3223@juno.com and I'll give you the site address. I can't provide it here because I sell my sail trim books and charts there.
Tantallon: Yes, 15 minutes is more than adequate to put the charge back into the starting battery. It just takes seconds to turn over the engine as I did not take a lot of juice out of it. I took a lot of strain out of the glo plug circuit, which made the engine start sequence much easier on the battery. On the older Catalina 30, the glo plug wiring goes all the way to the cockpit and then back to the glo plug, which results in a big voltage drop. I replaced that long wire run to about 1'. Now, about 5 seconds is all that is required to heat up the glo plugs. If you wanted to, you could charge the 3 batteries all the time but it is not necessary. The voltage regulator kicks in to prevent over charging so it is unnecessary to charge the starting battery all the time but you could if you wanted to. Additionally, when I was doing all this, I replaced the inadequate #4 wire with #1 wire. I think the batteries and alternator liked that better. The company I use was Lewco Electric Co, 456 Old Newport Blvd, Newport Beach, Ca. (949)548-8383. Originally, I looked at the systems WM sells but they were too complicated for my non electric background to hook up. With the Lewco, I took my alternator to them and they hooked up the system and all I had to do was mount it. It turned out that I was glad I brought the alternator to them because they found I had a couple of defective diodes. Had I tried to hook up a WN system, it never would have worked and I would have had no idea why it wouldn't. I think I have a picture of the Lewco on my web site. Send me an email at yankee3223@juno.com and I'll give you the site address. I can't provide it here because I sell my sail trim books and charts there.
Recharging Batteries
Tantallon: Re-charging a “Start” Battery should not take long, if the battery was (more or less) fully charged to begin with (prior to starting engine). ie: A large starter motor might draw as much as 400 Amps for 10 Seconds - hence consume less than ONE Amp/Hour of power (400A / 60 min. / 6 = 0.66 a/H), which might be replenished in under 15 minutes (assuming a charge rate of only 2.5 Amps). A proper Battery Selector Switch is “Make before Break” operation, so, unless you switch through “Off” position, you never disconnect the Alternator output from a Battery Load. Don’s system requires consistent attention to manual control, and may not work as well as he intends. I don’t recommend it. If his system connects the “Start” Battery to(say) position “1", and the “House Batteries are connected to positions “1" and “2". The. new On-Off Switch disconnects the “Start” battery from position”1", when recharging the “House” batteries. Hence, he is dividing his intended “Start” re-charge (unequally) between the “Start” and “House 1" batteries, and it may take considerably longer to recharge the “Start” battery than indicated above. Don: Please excuse me (and correct me), if I’ve misunderstood your actual connections. I’ve used a diode to create a voltage drop in my alternator “Sense” wire, thereby “fooling” the Alt’ into a higher output for a longer time. I don’t recommend the practice. A larger Battery Bank (like parallel batteries) will accept higher charging rates than a smaller one (single, stand alone battery), so is a much more efficient set-up for re-charging. You’ll also expect to reach a shallower depth of discharge on parallel house batteries, which will increase their life. FWIW, Gord
Tantallon: Re-charging a “Start” Battery should not take long, if the battery was (more or less) fully charged to begin with (prior to starting engine). ie: A large starter motor might draw as much as 400 Amps for 10 Seconds - hence consume less than ONE Amp/Hour of power (400A / 60 min. / 6 = 0.66 a/H), which might be replenished in under 15 minutes (assuming a charge rate of only 2.5 Amps). A proper Battery Selector Switch is “Make before Break” operation, so, unless you switch through “Off” position, you never disconnect the Alternator output from a Battery Load. Don’s system requires consistent attention to manual control, and may not work as well as he intends. I don’t recommend it. If his system connects the “Start” Battery to(say) position “1", and the “House Batteries are connected to positions “1" and “2". The. new On-Off Switch disconnects the “Start” battery from position”1", when recharging the “House” batteries. Hence, he is dividing his intended “Start” re-charge (unequally) between the “Start” and “House 1" batteries, and it may take considerably longer to recharge the “Start” battery than indicated above. Don: Please excuse me (and correct me), if I’ve misunderstood your actual connections. I’ve used a diode to create a voltage drop in my alternator “Sense” wire, thereby “fooling” the Alt’ into a higher output for a longer time. I don’t recommend the practice. A larger Battery Bank (like parallel batteries) will accept higher charging rates than a smaller one (single, stand alone battery), so is a much more efficient set-up for re-charging. You’ll also expect to reach a shallower depth of discharge on parallel house batteries, which will increase their life. FWIW, Gord
Recharging Batteries
Tantallon: Re-charging a “Start” Battery should not take long, if the battery was (more or less) fully charged to begin with (prior to starting engine). ie: A large starter motor might draw as much as 400 Amps for 10 Seconds - hence consume less than ONE Amp/Hour of power (400A / 60 min. / 6 = 0.66 a/H), which might be replenished in under 15 minutes (assuming a charge rate of only 2.5 Amps). A proper Battery Selector Switch is “Make before Break” operation, so, unless you switch through “Off” position, you never disconnect the Alternator output from a Battery Load. Don’s system requires consistent attention to manual control, and may not work as well as he intends. I don’t recommend it. If his system connects the “Start” Battery to(say) position “1", and the “House Batteries are connected to positions “1" and “2". The. new On-Off Switch disconnects the “Start” battery from position”1", when recharging the “House” batteries. Hence, he is dividing his intended “Start” re-charge (unequally) between the “Start” and “House 1" batteries, and it may take considerably longer to recharge the “Start” battery than indicated above. Don: Please excuse me (and correct me), if I’ve misunderstood your actual connections. I’ve used a diode to create a voltage drop in my alternator “Sense” wire, thereby “fooling” the Alt’ into a higher output for a longer time. I don’t recommend the practice. A larger Battery Bank (like parallel batteries) will accept higher charging rates than a smaller one (single, stand alone battery), so is a much more efficient set-up for re-charging. You’ll also expect to reach a shallower depth of discharge on parallel house batteries, which will increase their life. FWIW, Gord
Tantallon: Re-charging a “Start” Battery should not take long, if the battery was (more or less) fully charged to begin with (prior to starting engine). ie: A large starter motor might draw as much as 400 Amps for 10 Seconds - hence consume less than ONE Amp/Hour of power (400A / 60 min. / 6 = 0.66 a/H), which might be replenished in under 15 minutes (assuming a charge rate of only 2.5 Amps). A proper Battery Selector Switch is “Make before Break” operation, so, unless you switch through “Off” position, you never disconnect the Alternator output from a Battery Load. Don’s system requires consistent attention to manual control, and may not work as well as he intends. I don’t recommend it. If his system connects the “Start” Battery to(say) position “1", and the “House Batteries are connected to positions “1" and “2". The. new On-Off Switch disconnects the “Start” battery from position”1", when recharging the “House” batteries. Hence, he is dividing his intended “Start” re-charge (unequally) between the “Start” and “House 1" batteries, and it may take considerably longer to recharge the “Start” battery than indicated above. Don: Please excuse me (and correct me), if I’ve misunderstood your actual connections. I’ve used a diode to create a voltage drop in my alternator “Sense” wire, thereby “fooling” the Alt’ into a higher output for a longer time. I don’t recommend the practice. A larger Battery Bank (like parallel batteries) will accept higher charging rates than a smaller one (single, stand alone battery), so is a much more efficient set-up for re-charging. You’ll also expect to reach a shallower depth of discharge on parallel house batteries, which will increase their life. FWIW, Gord
I'm with Gord.
Larger EVERYTHING in a battery system is great, and SIMPLE makes it even better. Mine is both large and simple. I'm also thinking of increasing my bank size 50%. Here's what I do; First, no engine start battery, just a bank of golf cart six volts. The 'golf carts' take care of Dons' ruggedness concerns. These things are built for bouncing around and deep cycling. They are also serviceable and can be monitored for malfunctioning cells. OK, onward. They are located on the 'light' side of the boat where a water tank used to be. That helps trim. The only switch is located right in-front of the bank. It is reverse wired. In other words, it sends power to the engine (#1), the distribution panel (#2) or both. I leave it on 'both' for normal operation. The lead to the engine starter is 'tinned' cable, the size of a FIRE HOSE! That cable (or any cable) can not be too big. The result is that the engine spins so fast at startup that we could get home without fuel.
Now (seriously) for charging, I have an old Balmar alternator. Nothing special there. It is controlled by a Balmar 3 stage regulator. And that is the key for cruising. If you are worried about getting a good charge into a large battery bank when away from dockside, get one. OK, on my web site are over a 130 pictures with descriptions. For wiring, see #30-33. (that will get you on the road to 'simple') #53 has some charging info on my continually evolving system. #54 is the battery bank. That's all the batteries I have. #102 and #105 are more shots of 'simple'.
Larger EVERYTHING in a battery system is great, and SIMPLE makes it even better. Mine is both large and simple. I'm also thinking of increasing my bank size 50%. Here's what I do; First, no engine start battery, just a bank of golf cart six volts. The 'golf carts' take care of Dons' ruggedness concerns. These things are built for bouncing around and deep cycling. They are also serviceable and can be monitored for malfunctioning cells. OK, onward. They are located on the 'light' side of the boat where a water tank used to be. That helps trim. The only switch is located right in-front of the bank. It is reverse wired. In other words, it sends power to the engine (#1), the distribution panel (#2) or both. I leave it on 'both' for normal operation. The lead to the engine starter is 'tinned' cable, the size of a FIRE HOSE! That cable (or any cable) can not be too big. The result is that the engine spins so fast at startup that we could get home without fuel.
Now (seriously) for charging, I have an old Balmar alternator. Nothing special there. It is controlled by a Balmar 3 stage regulator. And that is the key for cruising. If you are worried about getting a good charge into a large battery bank when away from dockside, get one. OK, on my web site are over a 130 pictures with descriptions. For wiring, see #30-33. (that will get you on the road to 'simple') #53 has some charging info on my continually evolving system. #54 is the battery bank. That's all the batteries I have. #102 and #105 are more shots of 'simple'.
I'm with Gord.
Larger EVERYTHING in a battery system is great, and SIMPLE makes it even better. Mine is both large and simple. I'm also thinking of increasing my bank size 50%. Here's what I do; First, no engine start battery, just a bank of golf cart six volts. The 'golf carts' take care of Dons' ruggedness concerns. These things are built for bouncing around and deep cycling. They are also serviceable and can be monitored for malfunctioning cells. OK, onward. They are located on the 'light' side of the boat where a water tank used to be. That helps trim. The only switch is located right in-front of the bank. It is reverse wired. In other words, it sends power to the engine (#1), the distribution panel (#2) or both. I leave it on 'both' for normal operation. The lead to the engine starter is 'tinned' cable, the size of a FIRE HOSE! That cable (or any cable) can not be too big. The result is that the engine spins so fast at startup that we could get home without fuel. Now (seriously) for charging, I have an old Balmar alternator. Nothing special there. It is controlled by a Balmar 3 stage regulator. And that is the key for cruising. If you are worried about getting a good charge into a large battery bank when away from dockside, get one. OK, on my web site are over a 130 pictures with descriptions. For wiring, see #30-33. (that will get you on the road to 'simple') #53 has some charging info on my continually evolving system. #54 is the battery bank. That's all the batteries I have. #102 and #105 are more shots of 'simple'.
Larger EVERYTHING in a battery system is great, and SIMPLE makes it even better. Mine is both large and simple. I'm also thinking of increasing my bank size 50%. Here's what I do; First, no engine start battery, just a bank of golf cart six volts. The 'golf carts' take care of Dons' ruggedness concerns. These things are built for bouncing around and deep cycling. They are also serviceable and can be monitored for malfunctioning cells. OK, onward. They are located on the 'light' side of the boat where a water tank used to be. That helps trim. The only switch is located right in-front of the bank. It is reverse wired. In other words, it sends power to the engine (#1), the distribution panel (#2) or both. I leave it on 'both' for normal operation. The lead to the engine starter is 'tinned' cable, the size of a FIRE HOSE! That cable (or any cable) can not be too big. The result is that the engine spins so fast at startup that we could get home without fuel.
Now (seriously) for charging, I have an old Balmar alternator. Nothing special there. It is controlled by a Balmar 3 stage regulator. And that is the key for cruising. If you are worried about getting a good charge into a large battery bank when away from dockside, get one. OK, on my web site are over a 130 pictures with descriptions. For wiring, see #30-33. (that will get you on the road to 'simple') #53 has some charging info on my continually evolving system. #54 is the battery bank. That's all the batteries I have. #102 and #105 are more shots of 'simple'.I would rather be sailing!
While I certainly have nothing bad to say about the advise you are getting from knowledgable sailors on the list, IMHO opinion, the best system is one that does not require human intervention except during maintenance or repair. Rather than boring you with a lengthy explaination, take a close look at the West Marine Advisor "Creating a reliable Battery System". Then add a good "adjustable" multi-stage regulator, and a programmable battery combiner such as the Xantrex Pathmaker(not an isolator) and you will never have to worry about selector switches again during normal use. Once you have everything set properly, proper charging will occur behind the scenes. I haven't touched the battery switches in 4 months. All batteries are properly charged and as strong as when they were new. Jon McClain, P.S. Just read Fred's post and he is right on! Unfortunately, some of us are stuck with what we have until they decide to die! LARGER is good advise no matter what! You will be amazed at the difference when you put in hefty wiring in a DC system, and relatively speaking it is the "best bang for the buck" of anything you can do.
While I certainly have nothing bad to say about the advise you are getting from knowledgable sailors on the list, IMHO opinion, the best system is one that does not require human intervention except during maintenance or repair. Rather than boring you with a lengthy explaination, take a close look at the West Marine Advisor "Creating a reliable Battery System". Then add a good "adjustable" multi-stage regulator, and a programmable battery combiner such as the Xantrex Pathmaker(not an isolator) and you will never have to worry about selector switches again during normal use. Once you have everything set properly, proper charging will occur behind the scenes. I haven't touched the battery switches in 4 months. All batteries are properly charged and as strong as when they were new. Jon McClain, P.S. Just read Fred's post and he is right on! Unfortunately, some of us are stuck with what we have until they decide to die! LARGER is good advise no matter what! You will be amazed at the difference when you put in hefty wiring in a DC system, and relatively speaking it is the "best bang for the buck" of anything you can do.
I would rather be sailing!
While I certainly have nothing bad to say about the advise you are getting from knowledgable sailors on the list, IMHO opinion, the best system is one that does not require human intervention except during maintenance or repair. Rather than boring you with a lengthy explaination, take a close look at the West Marine Advisor "Creating a reliable Battery System". Then add a good "adjustable" multi-stage regulator, and a programmable battery combiner such as the Xantrex Pathmaker(not an isolator) and you will never have to worry about selector switches again during normal use. Once you have everything set properly, proper charging will occur behind the scenes. I haven't touched the battery switches in 4 months. All batteries are properly charged and as strong as when they were new. Jon McClain, P.S. Just read Fred's post and he is right on! Unfortunately, some of us are stuck with what we have until they decide to die! LARGER is good advise no matter what! You will be amazed at the difference when you put in hefty wiring in a DC system, and relatively speaking it is the "best bang for the buck" of anything you can do.
While I certainly have nothing bad to say about the advise you are getting from knowledgable sailors on the list, IMHO opinion, the best system is one that does not require human intervention except during maintenance or repair. Rather than boring you with a lengthy explaination, take a close look at the West Marine Advisor "Creating a reliable Battery System". Then add a good "adjustable" multi-stage regulator, and a programmable battery combiner such as the Xantrex Pathmaker(not an isolator) and you will never have to worry about selector switches again during normal use. Once you have everything set properly, proper charging will occur behind the scenes. I haven't touched the battery switches in 4 months. All batteries are properly charged and as strong as when they were new. Jon McClain, P.S. Just read Fred's post and he is right on! Unfortunately, some of us are stuck with what we have until they decide to die! LARGER is good advise no matter what! You will be amazed at the difference when you put in hefty wiring in a DC system, and relatively speaking it is the "best bang for the buck" of anything you can do.
Electronics are not my bag (sail trim is), so I have probably not explained my system correctly. The system could not be simplier and there is not an over abundance of manual control. In addition to the normal 2 bank Guest switch, which everyone has, I installed another simple on/off switch for the starting battery. To start the engine I turn on that switch and in about 15 minutes I shut it off AFTER turning on the house battery switch. What could be simplier? I think the real discussion should be the advantage of a battery stand alone system verses the parallel battery system. With the stand alone, you do not need combiners or isolators. You don't need anything and you never have to worry about a bad battery sucking down your other battery. Before I converted to the stand alone system, I had a combiner, which I kept. I kept the combiner only because I had told my wife it was something "I just had to have" and I paid too much for it to just dump it, but in truth I kept it because I liked watching the lights flash!!!
More on "juicing" your boat
After reading these posts I have come to a conclusion. I have no future as an eveready sailsman! Wow. There are some smart folks here. So i would like to explain my setup because im not really sure where im at. I have only had the boat about 7 months and it is my first. I graduated the sixth grade but. K... my 336 has a high output alternator (55), 2500 watt inverter, shore power batt charger in engine bank compartment, 4 six volt golf carts (all new) for the house, and two 12 volters for the engine bank (again new). I can isolate both banks. The house bank in the forward salon has an on/off switch. They are in series. Oh and im doing this from memory cause im working and not sailing. bummer! Inverter has on/off switch (these are all the red ones) on some kind of "flux galvonic capacitor thingy". On the engine compartment wall, have two switches (1,2,all,off)> The forward switch (2 for house batts, 1 for engine batts) runs the dc system. The other switch is labeled to start engine (2 for house bank, 1 for engine bank) When on shore power I have been setting the aft switch to 1 so I charge engine bank off aft battery charger and the forward switch to 2 so I charge house batts from inverter. When I put to sea (read bay within sight of land), and running aux motor, I put front switch on all, and leave aft switch on 1. Under sail I turn front to 2(house bank) and aft to Off. I have run the stereo, fridge, water, victor radio, instruments, cabin fans for at least 5 hours and volts were still above 12 on house bank. Since engine bank is isolated, the little yanmar fires right up. Am I even close operating like this. Im busy learing one system at a time but have limited "brain ram". Any thoughts? I have no ego to bruise.. im not a sailor yet but working on it. Help me "obi Fred".. your my only hope Rick Whiskey Chaser
After reading these posts I have come to a conclusion. I have no future as an eveready sailsman! Wow. There are some smart folks here. So i would like to explain my setup because im not really sure where im at. I have only had the boat about 7 months and it is my first. I graduated the sixth grade but. K... my 336 has a high output alternator (55), 2500 watt inverter, shore power batt charger in engine bank compartment, 4 six volt golf carts (all new) for the house, and two 12 volters for the engine bank (again new). I can isolate both banks. The house bank in the forward salon has an on/off switch. They are in series. Oh and im doing this from memory cause im working and not sailing. bummer! Inverter has on/off switch (these are all the red ones) on some kind of "flux galvonic capacitor thingy". On the engine compartment wall, have two switches (1,2,all,off)> The forward switch (2 for house batts, 1 for engine batts) runs the dc system. The other switch is labeled to start engine (2 for house bank, 1 for engine bank) When on shore power I have been setting the aft switch to 1 so I charge engine bank off aft battery charger and the forward switch to 2 so I charge house batts from inverter. When I put to sea (read bay within sight of land), and running aux motor, I put front switch on all, and leave aft switch on 1. Under sail I turn front to 2(house bank) and aft to Off. I have run the stereo, fridge, water, victor radio, instruments, cabin fans for at least 5 hours and volts were still above 12 on house bank. Since engine bank is isolated, the little yanmar fires right up. Am I even close operating like this. Im busy learing one system at a time but have limited "brain ram". Any thoughts? I have no ego to bruise.. im not a sailor yet but working on it. Help me "obi Fred".. your my only hope Rick Whiskey Chaser
Rick, my son,,,
Have faith and you will succeed. You must use the force. Then one day all systems will appear in your imagination as if your boat was a hologram. Faith, just faith! Well, OK, maybe a couple of good books and an owners manual too. It's amazing what I'm still learning about my stuff from the owners manuals.
Have faith and you will succeed. You must use the force. Then one day all systems will appear in your imagination as if your boat was a hologram. Faith, just faith! Well, OK, maybe a couple of good books and an owners manual too. It's amazing what I'm still learning about my stuff from the owners manuals.
TY Fred
Just so ya know... right now it all kinda appears in my mind like fog mixed with Jack Daniels! Kiddin... I have read the owners manual from cover to cover to the point where I can quote line and verse. However, my electrical sys was modified by previous owner who apparently sailed off the edge of the world after he sold it to a korean doctor and his wife who are lovely people but NOT (boat only taken out twice in two years) sailors. I will keep looking for the prize at the bottom of the cereal box. Cheers Rick Whiskey Chaser
Just so ya know... right now it all kinda appears in my mind like fog mixed with Jack Daniels! Kiddin... I have read the owners manual from cover to cover to the point where I can quote line and verse. However, my electrical sys was modified by previous owner who apparently sailed off the edge of the world after he sold it to a korean doctor and his wife who are lovely people but NOT (boat only taken out twice in two years) sailors. I will keep looking for the prize at the bottom of the cereal box. Cheers Rick Whiskey Chaser
You lost me, but that's not hard to do!
Rick, You really know how to hurt a guy! I used to think that I was pretty good at this stuff, but after your system description the only thing on my mind was two fingers of Glenlivet. I think that I have a vague understanding, maybe!. At the risk of greater humiliation, I do have a few comments: 1. Do you have a Perkins engine? The 55 amp alternator w/internal regulator was standard as I recall. High output alternator usually refers to a rated capacity of from 80 to 100+ amps. When coupled with a good multi-stage external regulator and a alt. cutout switch at the helm, you can quickly recharge your batteries with out the risk of damage. 2. Golf cart batteries are great and very cost effective. I will probably do the same when the current bank of 12v'ers die. 3. The "galvonic thingy" is no doubt a galvanic isolator on your shore power service. It will help prolong the life of your zincs. 4. The second Start battery is probably not necessary. As soon as you start your engine your start battery will quickly charge back up. 5. When I am singlehanding, which is most of the time, I don't want to be running up/down minding switches. Hence, I like the Patchmaker combiner. It is all automatic if properly wired. The only thing I do when I get to the boat is turn off the shorepower at the service box, unplug the cable from the boat, start the engine and go. Nothing else until I return to the slip and plug back in. Jon McClain P.S. Don, I think that the Pathmaker combiner is the strongest component in the system. In addition to eliminating all the switching, if you get familiar with how it behaves it will give you advance warning of a weakening battery, even without the optional battery temperature sensors.
Rick, You really know how to hurt a guy! I used to think that I was pretty good at this stuff, but after your system description the only thing on my mind was two fingers of Glenlivet. I think that I have a vague understanding, maybe!. At the risk of greater humiliation, I do have a few comments: 1. Do you have a Perkins engine? The 55 amp alternator w/internal regulator was standard as I recall. High output alternator usually refers to a rated capacity of from 80 to 100+ amps. When coupled with a good multi-stage external regulator and a alt. cutout switch at the helm, you can quickly recharge your batteries with out the risk of damage. 2. Golf cart batteries are great and very cost effective. I will probably do the same when the current bank of 12v'ers die. 3. The "galvonic thingy" is no doubt a galvanic isolator on your shore power service. It will help prolong the life of your zincs. 4. The second Start battery is probably not necessary. As soon as you start your engine your start battery will quickly charge back up. 5. When I am singlehanding, which is most of the time, I don't want to be running up/down minding switches. Hence, I like the Patchmaker combiner. It is all automatic if properly wired. The only thing I do when I get to the boat is turn off the shorepower at the service box, unplug the cable from the boat, start the engine and go. Nothing else until I return to the slip and plug back in. Jon McClain P.S. Don, I think that the Pathmaker combiner is the strongest component in the system. In addition to eliminating all the switching, if you get familiar with how it behaves it will give you advance warning of a weakening battery, even without the optional battery temperature sensors.
Reading this thread is very painful...
The first problem we're having is that Tant, in his one & only post, never defined how he uses his boat and didn't tell us what his primary criteria for change are when posing his question. As a result, it's easy for everyone to let fly with their own views, which understandably are based on their use and their criteria but not necessarily Tant's. In trying to read between the lines, what I get from the original post is that Tant wants to do two things: optimize the efficiency of a house bank, and do it with minimal complication and expense. But it would be constructive if Tant actually told us how he uses his boat, what his energy budget looks like, gave us a feel for which DC systems need to be supported and confirmed his actual criteria (vs. the ones I or others would imply). The second problem with this thread is a function of how influential 'systems' have become in our general orientation of sailing and boating today. It is clearly the tail that wags the dog. We're quick to launch off on a recitation of black boxes and features, the need for which, in truth, is generated to one degree or another by WM catalogs, CW articles and advertisers, by boat mfgrs and our own eagerness for toys...but not necessarily by the sources of pleasure and satisfaction that come with sailing and boat ownership. And oh Lordy, electrical systems can be so devilishly complicated - and so unique, from one boat to the next over time - that I wonder what Tant must think when posing a pretty basic question and then reading some of these posts. Tant, here are four suggestions that I'm hoping are both relevant and helpful to you: 1. Tackle your two issues - house bank wiring and increased charging capabiolity - separately, as one is pretty simple and the other more complicated. Don't look for a 'one-step' fix. 2. For optimizing your house bank's performance, consider adding the engine start battery you mention (basically, so you can have an independent source for engine start) and parallel your two current batteries to improve your house bank performance. Gord gives you the reasons you should consider this; if you want another version of the same advice, read what Nigel Calder says in his Boatowner's manual. Don's warning about a dead cell affecting the entire house bank is narrowly correct but not really significant. One of the advantages of paralleling the batteries is how easy it is to jump out the battery with a dead cell, if/when that occurs - one nut, tape the terminal on the wire and your done. You will need to revisit your battery switch and battery wiring; I would encourage you to try avoiding Don's arrangement. It works fine for him but there are simply too many hands on too many switches, too often - with a blown diode one possibility with only one error. Your goal should be that, for normal operation in all conditions, you needn't touch any battery switches, period. You'll find examples of how to set this up in the WM Advisor, at Jack Rabbit Marine (http://jackrabbitmarine.com/(yqursfvelmhrzb55f321obfz)/bigImage.aspx?pID=553), in Calder or in other DC Electricity references, of varying complexity depending on your preferences. Remember: With all batteries healthy, you should never need to touch a switch. Now THAT's simple, and it's stupid-proof. 3. Reconsider just how badly you need to improve your alternator's charging capability. This is when things get incrementally more complex, more expensive, involve even more wiring, and more boxes. 'Smart' charging is definitely a quantum leap forward in electrical performance, and is very much in vogue these days...but of course it never used to be the norm, and I hope you actually have needs that justify smart charging if in fact that's the route you go. Yes, your diode idea is one way to trick an internal regulator. 20 years ago a common option was to stick with the stock alternator, crack its case, put a simple jumper in the field excitation line and hook up a rheostat to manually (and then later, automatically) control the charge. The same thing could be done today; you can read about it in Ed Beyn's DC & Alternator books. But my advice is more foundational: Do an energy budget based on how you use your boat, make your house bank changes (which will be useful whether or not you move to smart charging), and then consider what else - if anything - is necessary before heading down the slippery slope of smart charging. 4. Just rereading some of these posts will illustrate why the best single - and first -step you can take is to diagram your existing DC electrical system. Don't just accept the owner's manual; instead, trace the wires (it's a great winter project), lay it all down on paper or computer, and while doing so, check the connections for tightness, note & address signs of corrosion, note wire dimensions and generally confirm in your own mind that what you find makes sense and looks right. If unsure, use a general (Calder) or specific (one of the DC Books) reference while you're doing so. You'll better understand a critical system on your boat and you'll be ready to incrementally change it yourself as your needs mature. Good luck and let us know more details if you think it would improve the utility of our answers. Jack
The first problem we're having is that Tant, in his one & only post, never defined how he uses his boat and didn't tell us what his primary criteria for change are when posing his question. As a result, it's easy for everyone to let fly with their own views, which understandably are based on their use and their criteria but not necessarily Tant's. In trying to read between the lines, what I get from the original post is that Tant wants to do two things: optimize the efficiency of a house bank, and do it with minimal complication and expense. But it would be constructive if Tant actually told us how he uses his boat, what his energy budget looks like, gave us a feel for which DC systems need to be supported and confirmed his actual criteria (vs. the ones I or others would imply). The second problem with this thread is a function of how influential 'systems' have become in our general orientation of sailing and boating today. It is clearly the tail that wags the dog. We're quick to launch off on a recitation of black boxes and features, the need for which, in truth, is generated to one degree or another by WM catalogs, CW articles and advertisers, by boat mfgrs and our own eagerness for toys...but not necessarily by the sources of pleasure and satisfaction that come with sailing and boat ownership. And oh Lordy, electrical systems can be so devilishly complicated - and so unique, from one boat to the next over time - that I wonder what Tant must think when posing a pretty basic question and then reading some of these posts. Tant, here are four suggestions that I'm hoping are both relevant and helpful to you: 1. Tackle your two issues - house bank wiring and increased charging capabiolity - separately, as one is pretty simple and the other more complicated. Don't look for a 'one-step' fix. 2. For optimizing your house bank's performance, consider adding the engine start battery you mention (basically, so you can have an independent source for engine start) and parallel your two current batteries to improve your house bank performance. Gord gives you the reasons you should consider this; if you want another version of the same advice, read what Nigel Calder says in his Boatowner's manual. Don's warning about a dead cell affecting the entire house bank is narrowly correct but not really significant. One of the advantages of paralleling the batteries is how easy it is to jump out the battery with a dead cell, if/when that occurs - one nut, tape the terminal on the wire and your done. You will need to revisit your battery switch and battery wiring; I would encourage you to try avoiding Don's arrangement. It works fine for him but there are simply too many hands on too many switches, too often - with a blown diode one possibility with only one error. Your goal should be that, for normal operation in all conditions, you needn't touch any battery switches, period. You'll find examples of how to set this up in the WM Advisor, at Jack Rabbit Marine (http://jackrabbitmarine.com/(yqursfvelmhrzb55f321obfz)/bigImage.aspx?pID=553), in Calder or in other DC Electricity references, of varying complexity depending on your preferences. Remember: With all batteries healthy, you should never need to touch a switch. Now THAT's simple, and it's stupid-proof. 3. Reconsider just how badly you need to improve your alternator's charging capability. This is when things get incrementally more complex, more expensive, involve even more wiring, and more boxes. 'Smart' charging is definitely a quantum leap forward in electrical performance, and is very much in vogue these days...but of course it never used to be the norm, and I hope you actually have needs that justify smart charging if in fact that's the route you go. Yes, your diode idea is one way to trick an internal regulator. 20 years ago a common option was to stick with the stock alternator, crack its case, put a simple jumper in the field excitation line and hook up a rheostat to manually (and then later, automatically) control the charge. The same thing could be done today; you can read about it in Ed Beyn's DC & Alternator books. But my advice is more foundational: Do an energy budget based on how you use your boat, make your house bank changes (which will be useful whether or not you move to smart charging), and then consider what else - if anything - is necessary before heading down the slippery slope of smart charging. 4. Just rereading some of these posts will illustrate why the best single - and first -step you can take is to diagram your existing DC electrical system. Don't just accept the owner's manual; instead, trace the wires (it's a great winter project), lay it all down on paper or computer, and while doing so, check the connections for tightness, note & address signs of corrosion, note wire dimensions and generally confirm in your own mind that what you find makes sense and looks right. If unsure, use a general (Calder) or specific (one of the DC Books) reference while you're doing so. You'll better understand a critical system on your boat and you'll be ready to incrementally change it yourself as your needs mature. Good luck and let us know more details if you think it would improve the utility of our answers. Jack
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