Battery Replacement Questions...

MitchM · Dec 10, 2016

i second all the motions to g et rid of the 4Ds unless you a re going off the grid for very long periods. our boat came with 3 4Ds and we replaced them with 3 Lifeline 31XTs at 135 Ah each. the 31's are much easier to move and a lot cheaper. then 4 Ds. we may eventually go the 6 v golf cart oute to replace the 31 XT's which a after 4 years were shot...

u0958901 · Dec 11, 2016

Helpful user guide with wiring diagrams from Trojan Batteries. http://www.trojanbattery.com/pdf/TrojanBattery_UsersGuide.pdf

marchem · Dec 11, 2016

Gene Neill said:
Yeah, thanks for nuthin, @Maine Sail, now I know Albin Marin oriented my batteries the wrong way!

Since they're located down in the keel, there's no fixing it. Guess I'll have to use gel or AGM in the future.

Just don't ever heel the boat!

marchem · Dec 11, 2016

One thing to watch for if you wire your batteries in parallel: Don't wire the hot and ground to the same battery, which is usually physically easier. Connect the hot to one and the ground to the other. That helps balance the current flow through them.

I know Stu and MaineSail both mention that but it bears repeating.

marchem · Dec 11, 2016

SailFysh said:
Also check me here... hook starting battery to alternator only and house bank to charger only... is that correct?

You can wire it that way, but a more flexible setup is to connect both the charger and alternator to the house bank (fused, of course), then connect an ACR between the house and spare bank. Now your battery selector switch determines which bank is being drawn from, and both banks get charged by either the AC charger or alternator.
https://www.bluesea.com/prodcts/7610/SI-ACR_Automatic_Charging_Relay_-_12_24V_DC_120A
Both MaineSail and Stu have lots of info on how to do that, and what the advantages are.

rpwillia · Dec 11, 2016

SailFysh said:
Thanks rpwillia! I was suffering from overthinking and reading too many posts. Woke up this morning with a fresh coffee and your post. I think I can follow that.
So your picture shows the 4 battery 6 volt as 1 house bank correct? No 5th starting battery? So you only use one of the switch positions on the 1/2/off/both selector?
Where is your charger mounted? Thanks

They are wired as two separate banks, but I normally keep the 1-2-All Switch in all so they are as one battery. I do not have a 5th starting battery. I have a Victron battery monitor and in the years I have had it it has proven to be accurate. Additionally I went all LED where possible and can go for about 3 days without needing to charge the batteries. Since I am a glorified day sailor who spends the occasional weekends and week on the boat on the Potomac River/Chesapeake Bay that battery configuration is sufficient. I placed the new charger where the old one one on the forward bulkhead of the aft port locker so I could re-use all of the factory cabling (the only wire I had to run was for the temp monitor on the battery).

One thing to note is that I used the original factory battery alignment and I understand they should be mounted port to starboard as opposed to forward and aft, but this has worked well for me. I also have a desulfinator circuit on the solar panel on the bank that helps to promote longer battery life.

rpwillia · Dec 11, 2016

marchem said:
Ray, it looks like someone did some surgery on your seat to make it easier to get those batteries in/out! I also noticed that your batteries are not in the optimal orientation http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/flooded_battery_orientation

You are correct about orientation, but I have never had a problem. Did not have to do any surgery, but since the golf cart batteries are about 1" higher than the 4D's I had to modify how the batteries are secured. So I came up with this so after the batteries were in, I could slide this in, extent the tops extensions and screw them into the holes in the settee bottom like the original board. The electronics you see in the middle are the shunt for the Victron monitor.

Alansails · Dec 12, 2016

We still have our 2-4D gel batteries , they are about 7 years old with the Charles charger-original.
If we want to not plug in for three days but run the VHF, fridge, cell phone charger, anchor light, stereo and interior lights (All lights are LEDS) on one battery and leave the second battery for starting, no solar charger, is that reasonable or will we end up with a dead battery? The batteries are still in good shape and still hold a charge for an extended time (No charging for 30 days on the hard with no major battery drain. I am sure somewhere there is a chart to determine drain on batteries. I am a visual person and know at some point we will replace our batteries and like the gel/agm batteries. Maybe We need Rob, Mainsail or Ray to stop by and check it out

.

SFS · Dec 12, 2016

Alan, you can calculate this for yourself, using the current draw (in amps) for all of the devices you list, the number of hours you run them, and the capacity of your house battery (singular), which is listed in amp-hours. One amp of draw for 2 hours is 2 amp-hours. Construct an energy budget, it should be your starting point:

http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,3976.0.html

This may also help:
Record of Daily Energy Use of 100 ah per day:
http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,6353.msg41471.html#msg41471

As might this:
Largest House Bank 101 (by Nigel Calder)
http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,5807.msg45046.html#msg45046

My guess is that the refrigerator will be a stretch for your hypothetical 3 days on one battery.

Stu Jackson · Dec 12, 2016

SailFysh said:
Is there anything i am missing here?

A number of things:

1. The alternator only has one output and should go to the house bank with a fuse and a service disconnect switch only to be used when working around the engine. This is the preferred method of wiring the AO instead of going through the switch. The switch then becomes a USE only switch,m and NOT a charging source switch.

2. Therefore, the ACR is used to automatically charge the reserve bank.

3. The shorepower charging lead goes ONLY to the house bank, too, and th ACR does its job then also.

This is all covered in the Electrical Systems 101 topic that SFS linked some excerpts to earlier, here:

Electrical Systems 101 http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,5977.0.html

Also covered in reply #8 on page one.

Alansails · Dec 13, 2016

Thanks for the Guidance, I am like SailFysh, I can EASILY Destroy an Anvil and also add hundreds of Dollars in cost to a $10.00 project at the drop of a wrench, just ask my wife.

I WILL Do the energy survey! Thanks

marchem · Dec 14, 2016

SailFysh said:
Read the electrical 101 info... it helps. You know the old saying "you can lead a horse to electrical knowledge but you can't make him drink the ACR"...
I believe I can do this now thanks to these posts but I still search for the simplest instruction sheet and diagram. I can destroy an anvil without proper supervision.

Here's an example of the wiring scheme. It's still a work in progress, but the basic concepts are there. Let me know if you've got any questions about it.

Like Stu said, your switch is now USE only. The ACR deals with charging both banks, and doesn't let a dead bank draw the other one down, which is easy to do with the default wiring by selecting ALL.

Stu Jackson · Dec 14, 2016

SailFysh said:
but I still search for the simplest instruction sheet and diagram.

marchem said:
Here's an example of the wiring scheme. It's still a work in progress, but the basic concepts are there.

SailFysh,

Rob's wiring diagram is very similar to the simplified wiring diagram in one of the Electrical System 101 topics that I referenced in my first post on page one of this thread.

It is one of the simplest in terms of how things are connected. Rob's added the + & - distribution bars and fuses.

Quite frankly, I don't know what else we can do for you beyond giving you scores of wiring diagrams that all show the same exact concept in different ways. There are two ends to each wire. They go from point A to point B.

YOU actually have to do the homework and research between your two ears to understand the concepts, which we have freely given to you. Many of us have had to figure this stuff out all on our own, before the internet. Now that you HAVE all this material, you just have to spend the time to figure it out. We're sure you did study during high school and college, right?

You only have to do it one more time.

Many, too many times, we hear, "I don't know nuttin' 'bout 'lekricity..." None of was born an electrician, we studied and we learned. If you feel it is beyond you, then have someone install it for you, with these guides.

But frankly, I have always seen it as a safety issue. If you don't understand enough about it, conceptually, then you'll never know if what someone is installing for you is actually what you want and/or need.

I can understand if you may not be handy with electrician's tools, but that's a whole 'nother issue. You HAVE to figure out what you want before you can get someone to do it for you. Would you just let a contractor redo your kitchen before you and your wife picked out the cabinets, counters, sink and faucets? I doubt it.

Study up. We're here to help with more specific questions once you've invested the time to read the material we've given you. I've seen hundreds of wiring diagrams from many, many skippers, and have helped dozens offline. ALL OF THEM were based on these concepts.

Battery Replacement Questions...

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

Attachments

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

Attachments

.

.