Battery Charging...boat or generator.

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Jan 22, 2008
8,050
Beneteau 323 Annapolis MD
The "Companion" is so named because it is built to be companioned with another Honda 2000 and it can be the output hook-up for the 30 ampere twist lock .. It can be used alone and the 30 amp plug from your shore power plugs right in .. but ya get only 13 amperes instead of the 26 if you hook two Hondas together (Companion)
Actually, any matching pairs of 'EU' 1000, or 2000, or 3000 can be paralled for double the amps.
 
Jul 1, 1998
3,062
Hunter Legend 35 Poulsbo/Semiahmoo WA
EU1000i & EU2000i output specs

Sometimes the model numbers don't designate everything.

So let me see if I got this right;
An EU2000 is a 2000 watt genset
2000 watts @ 120 volts would be 16.6 amps
2000 watts @ 12 volts would be 166 amps

a 50 amp @ 12 volts would be 5 amps at 120 volts

No way I fugure it would you be popping CBs using a EU2000 to drive a 50 amp charger. Sure if you try and heat water (typically 2000 watt heater) but you are only drawing 5 amps AC to drive the charger.

clearly I do not understand something. Is the EU2000 a 2000 watt genset?
For you guys who seem to like noisy, stinky, junky generators, vs. those of us who like nice clean, quiet, solar panels...... (thought I'd get this plug in)... anyway:

The EU1000i output is 1000VA MAX and rated 900VA continuous.
The EU2000i output is 2000VA MAX and rated only 1,600VA continuous, 13.3 A

I *think* the MAX output is only for something like 30 minutes.

So, for continuous operation the 2000 only puts out 700 more watts than the 1000. Everything is at a rated voltage of 120V, 60Hz

These Honda gen sets seem to have a weak point which is in the electronics section (diodes) as they do wear out. Actually this is somewhat similar to alternators but from what I've heard they are less robust than good alternators like, say, Balmars.

So when doing "the numbers", figure out what kind of output is needed. When pushing the limits, assume that the diodes will need replacing sooner than later.

Hope this helps in the number crunching.
 
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Nodak7

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Sep 28, 2008
1,249
Hunter 41DS Punta Gorda, FL
Re: EU1000i & EU2000i output specs

So the bottom line is ......

A single EU1000i will run my 50amp battery charger but it will be at its maximum output
A single EU2000i will run my 50amp battery charger but nothing else should be running while I am charging the batteries just to make sure.
If I really want to make certain I have what it takes I would need to get a EU2000i and a EU2000i Companion

Is this correct?
 
Jan 22, 2008
8,050
Beneteau 323 Annapolis MD
Nodak, go online to Honda and/or get their catalog and get the straight scoop, not a bunch of opinions. You need to consider the INPUT requirements of your battery chargers, not the output.
 
Jul 1, 1998
3,062
Hunter Legend 35 Poulsbo/Semiahmoo WA
50 Amp battery charger will kill the EU1000i

Your boat very likely has a Non-true sine battery charger because these things are pretty expensive (but have come down a lot in price recently) and if it is a factory installed charger I can almost guarantee you it isn't true-sine. If it is a true-sine I'd fall out of my chair.

When I say "kill" the EU1000i, I mean cause it to trip out due to overload.

Does the boat engine have a high-output alternator? Not the Hitachi kind, something like a Balmar with a hot rating of 70 Amp or more? If so, what one could do is run the boat engine/alternator to a point where the acceptance rate starts getting down in the 35 Amp range and then switch over to the EU1000i. That should work and then run the generator until you feel things are charged enough.

With something like a Link 2000 panel one can really monitor what is happening. Xantrex took Link over and have their own panels now but this is something nice to have, although not cheap. There is a less expensive model, 1000?

Using the engine/high-output alternator system it shouldn't take too long to get the bulk charge in but the engine idle speed needs to be kinda "up there", more than say 600 or 700 RPM because the alternator output is a function of it's RPM.

If one is on the hook a lot I'd really consider a couple good solar panels and a Blue Sky controller. Totally quiet, clean, no gas required, etc. and use the engine/alternator system only for major bulk charge if needed or to run the Admiral's hair drier. http://www.blueskyenergyinc.com/products/details/solar_boost_2000e/

The other good part with a solar panel is it will provide nice high voltage for all the motor systems like refrigeration, water pump, auto pilot, fans, etc. Motors really like high voltage and wear out quicker with low voltage. The start-up current also gets a boost for motors.
 
Jun 6, 2006
6,990
currently boatless wishing Harrington Harbor North, MD
Think you have your components confused John. there is no such thing as a true sine wave CHARGER. Lots of those (both true and not so true) sine wave INVERTERS but chargers take AC sine wave current and convert it into a DC (with ripple no doubt) 'wave" current. Ain't no sine about DC current.
 
Jun 6, 2006
6,990
currently boatless wishing Harrington Harbor North, MD
Also John alternator output is controlled by the regulator not engine RPM. Once you get the alternator to "fire up" it will produce it's rated output at idle. You do have to rev the motor initially to get it to fire up but then you can throttle back to idle and the regulator will compensate by running more current (making a stronger magnetic field) through the rotor coil. A common misconception though.

The other alternative is to go the "inverter based boat" route. It works like this. Buy a really big (150+) amp alternator and add some belts to power it properly. Buy an inverter capable of driving the AC or whatever high power thing you are interested in powering. Start the engine and fire up the alternator, switch on the inverter, switch on the AC load. The engine converts diesel to 12 volt DC, the inverter converts the DC to AC and the load is happy as a pig in s&*t.
The batteries stay charged and only handle the surges from the inverter. This is a consume as you use mode of operation for the high wattage appliances. Course you would have to do the cost benefit analysis to see if this is a good idea cost wise but if you are planning on upgrading to a larger alternator and want an inverter then some of that cost can be absorbed as "stuff I needed anyway and I just bought a slightly bigger one to solve this problem too"
 
Feb 6, 1998
11,667
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
Bill Roosa;825140[B said:
][/b][FONT=&quot]Also John alternator output is controlled by the regulator not engine RPM[/FONT][FONT=&quot]. Once you get the alternator to "fire up" it will produce it's rated output at idle. You do have to rev the motor initially to get it to fire up but then you can throttle back to idle and the regulator will compensate by running more current (making a stronger magnetic field) through the rotor coil. A common misconception though.[/FONT]
Bill where on earth do you come up with this stuff..?:confused:

Let's take a look at this from an alternator specs standpoint based on what the OP most likely has if it is still "factory".

Based on his 2006 Hunter he most likely has a Yanmar 4JH series engine. Most of these shipped with either a 60A or optional 80A Hitachi alt.

The 60A alt develops its rated output of 56A at a MINIMUM alt speed of 5000 RPM per the Yanmar specs. To reach a 5000 RPM alt speed at an 800 RPM idle you'd need a 6.25:1 pulley ratio. There is not a 4JH that has anywhere near a 6.25:1 ratio. The Yanmar 4JH is a 1.9:1 ratio as I have measured it on a customers boat. The crank pulley is 5.25" and the alt pulley is 2.75".

Using a 1.9:1 ratio with an idle speed of 800 RPM, what most 4Jh engines idle at, gets you to an alt speed of just 1520 RPM. A 1520 RPM alt speed on the Hitachi 60A alt is a 20A output no matter how much field the regulator applies. 20 amps is a far cry from the rated output of 56A.

Even on the 80A unit your getting just 20A at an 800 RPM idle. By going to 3000 RPM on the alt you develop 60A at 1580 engine RPM. This is still 15A shy of the rating for that alternator and your getting a decent output but your RPM for the engine is almost double the idle speed. By going to 4000 alt RPM you're now at 70A but also at 2100 engine RPM.

You simply can't apply a blanket statement that alts will produce their full rating at idle as all output curves are different and many engines have different pulley ratios. If the alt is not spinning the needed RPM to match its output curve even full fielding the unit won't produce anything more than it can produce based on its own output curve. Some alts do much better than others at idle but I've yet to see one that can put out its full rated current at normal pulley ratios on marine engines with the engine at a 600-800 RPM..

Even a 100A Balmar 6 series will not produce it's hot rated output of 87A until 5000 alternator RPM. You can hit 80A at 2500 alt RPM which is 1315 engine RPM or 515 engine RPM higher than idle and your still 7A away from max rated output.

I do agree that with many alternators you do not need to race the engine to get good output, as many folks do, but many alts perform poorly at low alt RPM so if your pulley ratio is low then it's a good idea to run the calculation to see where you optimum charging speed is.

A 50A charger, depending upon brand, may be right up against the limits of a Honda EU 1000 and may or may not work without shutting the EU down on temp overload... The Progressive Dynanamics 50A charger for example draws 900 watts but an Iota 75A draws 1000W so it depends upon which brand of charger the OP has, which he's not disclosed as of yet.


We really need to know what the charger is, brand & model, in order to help more.
 
Jun 6, 2006
6,990
currently boatless wishing Harrington Harbor North, MD
But Main Sail
Those alternator specs are ALL based on a constant current of 3ish amps to the rotor coil so you can compare them. Now as we all know the current to the rotor is changeable otherwise we would be spinning our alternator at 5000 RPM and producing huge currents during float mode. The idea that the RPM is important is only valid from the standpoint of "is the motor capable of turning an electromagnetically loaded up alternator (alternator drawing lots of HP) at that RPM. Clearly you can never get a 1 HP motor to produce 150 amps at 12 volts no matter how fast you turn over the alternator. The corollary is also true. It does not matter how fast you turn the alternator it only matters how many lines of force you are cutting. Increasing RPMs is one way of cutting more lines of force, increasing the rotor coil current is a much better on as it disconnects me from RPM changes. So get you a good regulator and enjoy the benefits of low RPM charging. Course for the most part the battery SOC controls the whole match but that does not change the fact that cutting more lines of force are the number not RPMs
Again ALL those alternator specs are for a constant current into the rotor and DO NOT reflect what the alternator is capable of at some given. The regulator is the key.
To be accurate you do have to have some rotation to overcome some technical issues like back EMF but those are very minor.
Take a look at
http://web.media.mit.edu/~nathan/nepal/ghatta/alternator.html
 
Feb 6, 1998
11,667
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
But Main Sail
Those alternator specs are ALL based on a constant current of 3ish amps to the rotor coil so you can compare them. Now as we all know the current to the rotor is changeable otherwise we would be spinning our alternator at 5000 RPM and producing huge currents during float mode. The idea that the RPM is important is only valid from the standpoint of "is the motor capable of turning an electromagnetically loaded up alternator (alternator drawing lots of HP) at that RPM. Clearly you can never get a 1 HP motor to produce 150 amps at 12 volts no matter how fast you turn over the alternator. The corollary is also true. It does not matter how fast you turn the alternator it only matters how many lines of force you are cutting. Increasing RPMs is one way of cutting more lines of force, increasing the rotor coil current is a much better on as it disconnects me from RPM changes. So get you a good regulator and enjoy the benefits of low RPM charging. Course for the most part the battery SOC controls the whole match but that does not change the fact that cutting more lines of force are the number not RPMs
Again ALL those alternator specs are for a constant current into the rotor and DO NOT reflect what the alternator is capable of at some given. The regulator is the key.
To be accurate you do have to have some rotation to overcome some technical issues like back EMF but those are very minor.
Take a look at

Bill I have tested lots of alternators on boats by full fielding the current. They do not put out full rated current even with full field applied and a depleted bank if the RPM is not there. Just tested a Balmar 6 series last week, a Powermax the week before, using a full field test procedure for Balmar regs, 12 volts straight battery power, the bank was at 40% SOC and AGM. The alt did not put out anywhere near full rated at the idle speed even full fielded with the voltage climbing. She was running at, about 700 engine RPM on a Sabre 34 / W/Westerbeke 30. Even though the AGM's can take it the alt was nowhere near full rated output. Juiced the throttle to about 1500 engine RPM and the output climbed on my Fluke 376 backed it off and it dropped all while the alt was still full fielded. Yanked the field jumper at 14.8V.

I know for a fact that Electromax and if I recall accurately, Balmar alts, are rated at full field potential but I have it in my notes at home and can check later..

Keep in mind that I applied 12V and way more amps than a regulator will supply and the alt was not producing full rated hot or cold output at idle and this is completely normal. Most regulators put out 10v +/- for full field.

Until absorption voltage is reached all regulators are basically full fielding the alt smart or dumb.

I have also spent a good part of a Saturday at a friends shop on his huge test machine applying field current and checking alt outputs and comparing regulators. Even the dumbest of dumb regulators could apply the enough field voltage needed to reach the alts full rated output, of course with enough alternator RPM. I tested many of them from marine to automotive and industrial / ambulance type alts. Remove the reg altogether and apply full field and the output did not change because even the dumbest of dumb was applying the enough field to make the alt reach it's full rated output but only if it was spinning fast enough. Some alts do better at low RPM than others but the RPM of the alt did and does matter.

I will let you know when I find that alt that puts out full rated current at 600-800 engine RPM have not found it yet with either a smart, dumb or full fielded alternator under testing... Perhaps you can make us a short video of yours putting out her rated output at engine idle I'd love to see it...
 
Jun 6, 2006
6,990
currently boatless wishing Harrington Harbor North, MD
But Main Sail
Understand what we are discussing. I was not trying to charge batteries. The batteries are just a parallel resistance in the circuit for this discussion. The other resistance is the inverter. Remember we are “using as we produce" so the alternator is not seeing a battery resistance at all. It is seeing a dead short effectively as the inverter (if properly sized) will fully load it.

I understand your confusion about full fielding and not getting full output. Understand that the charts depicting a very specific engineering situation and do not tell you everything you need to know to really determine the output of the alternator at a specific RPM. For instance the chart always shows cold output which is not really helpful but sure looks good to the customer. The inclusion of a battery resistance dramatically changes the graph to make it look like the one we all reference. All fine and dandy as most folks that buy an alternator want to charge batteries with it, not use it to power an inverter. If you change what the alternator output load is you will get a different graph. The manufactures could show you the dead short output but that is not at all representative of what you would ever see as a customer and there are legal issues with “overstating the capabilities of your product” that their lawyers advise them against doing.

Consider the following:
If V=IR and V is held reasonably constant at 14.4 volts then I is completely determined by R. R for a battery is variable as we all know and increases (in lead acid batteries) as the SOC gets closer to 100% charged. Even when it is at 0% SOC it still has a fairly high resistance though as noted by the 9ish volts a “dead battery” will rest at if you give it time. By inserting a very low resistance in parallel with the batteries you are effectively lowering R to 0 ohms. So I=V/R is (yes Martha) infinite. Course those ugly laws of physics rear their head and demand that you only get what you supply so you end being limited by the number of magnetic force lines you can cut per unit time. Force lines being greater with more rotor current and you can cut more of them by spinning the alternator faster. We are trying to spin the alternator at a lower speed so we don’t have to race the engine so more rotor current is the preferred way of getting more force lines cut.

In most alternators I have done experimenting with you can literally lock the rotor by full fielding it. The sucker will draw it’s max HP at very low RPMs and provided the engine can make that HP by increasing throttle but not RPM you can get the system to work that way. I guess I should also mention that if you do this and rev up the motor you WILL blow the diode pack as the alternator will exceed its rated capacity. If you are using a regular regulator you will be fine as it will “throttle back” the rotor field current to prevent over volting the unit.

I understand this is heresy and you all will think I’m nuts but the truth is it does work.
 
Feb 6, 1998
11,667
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
But Main Sail
Understand what we are discussing. I was not trying to charge batteries. The batteries are just a parallel resistance in the circuit for this discussion. The other resistance is the inverter. Remember we are “using as we produce" so the alternator is not seeing a battery resistance at all. It is seeing a dead short effectively as the inverter (if properly sized) will fully load it.

I understand your confusion about full fielding and not getting full output. Understand that the charts depicting a very specific engineering situation and do not tell you everything you need to know to really determine the output of the alternator at a specific RPM. For instance the chart always shows cold output which is not really helpful but sure looks good to the customer. The inclusion of a battery resistance dramatically changes the graph to make it look like the one we all reference. All fine and dandy as most folks that buy an alternator want to charge batteries with it, not use it to power an inverter. If you change what the alternator output load is you will get a different graph. The manufactures could show you the dead short output but that is not at all representative of what you would ever see as a customer and there are legal issues with “overstating the capabilities of your product” that their lawyers advise them against doing.

Consider the following:
If V=IR and V is held reasonably constant at 14.4 volts then I is completely determined by R. R for a battery is variable as we all know and increases (in lead acid batteries) as the SOC gets closer to 100% charged. Even when it is at 0% SOC it still has a fairly high resistance though as noted by the 9ish volts a “dead battery” will rest at if you give it time. By inserting a very low resistance in parallel with the batteries you are effectively lowering R to 0 ohms. So I=V/R is (yes Martha) infinite. Course those ugly laws of physics rear their head and demand that you only get what you supply so you end being limited by the number of magnetic force lines you can cut per unit time. Force lines being greater with more rotor current and you can cut more of them by spinning the alternator faster. We are trying to spin the alternator at a lower speed so we don’t have to race the engine so more rotor current is the preferred way of getting more force lines cut.

In most alternators I have done experimenting with you can literally lock the rotor by full fielding it. The sucker will draw it’s max HP at very low RPMs and provided the engine can make that HP by increasing throttle but not RPM you can get the system to work that way. I guess I should also mention that if you do this and rev up the motor you WILL blow the diode pack as the alternator will exceed its rated capacity. If you are using a regular regulator you will be fine as it will “throttle back” the rotor field current to prevent over volting the unit.

I understand this is heresy and you all will think I’m nuts but the truth is it does work.
Bill, most any good aftermarket alternator will show both a hot and cold output. Balmar's output curves are both hot and cold rated. Resistance of the battery in the situation last week was certainly not an issue this was a decent sized bank of AGM's that at that SOC could have easily taken 200 +/- amps of charge current if we had it but we only had 100. Going from idle to 1500 increased the alt output by a significant amount in the neighborhood of 40A, all while the alternator was full fielded. The only change was the RPM of the alt for that roughly 40A to come up. If the internal resistance of the battery was the issue the current would not have moved..

You also need to remember that you are sensing battery voltage with most of these external regulators so unless you have a MASSIVE inverter load on a small bank your alt will not be tasked as much as you suggest. Just yesterday I was running a shop vac on a boat with the engien running and the batts were at nearly 100% SOC before flipping it on. The vac drew over 30A DC through the inverter yet the net + current flowing was under 10A as the battery voltage was being easily maintained mostly off the bank and the alt only needed to contribute a little to keep the voltage up. On another boat it has an electric bow thruster that draws over 150A DC. The alt is tasked more heavily with that load but not all the way to full current output if the bank is already well charged.


Even Leece-Neville shows both a hot and cold rated output on their curves:

Image courtesy Leece-Neville



Your original statement was this:

Also John alternator output is controlled by the regulator not engine RPM. Once you get the alternator to "fire up" it will produce it's rated output at idle.
And now you're stating that is only when a massive inverter load is applied.:confused: Again I have NEVER seen any high or low performance alternator on any boat, smart or dumb regulator, produce full rated output at idle even into a completely dead bank. This makes your original statement a tough one to swallow cause in the real world it does not mesh. 1200 -1600 engien RPM, with the right ratio, with many alts can get you damn close to full rated hot output which is usually more than enough. You do not need to race your engine but also it usually needs to be above 600-800 RPM to get decent output..
 
Feb 26, 2004
22,760
Catalina 34 224 Maple Bay, BC, Canada
Bill, Maine Sail is right. I always tell my clients that "real world" is what they have to deal with. Many of the plans & specifications I review for my clients that were prepared by other engineers (it's what I do for a living) have specifications that "mix & match" stuff made by, say, three different manufacturers. They think they're being "clever" and saving writing longer specs, and depend on the contractors to figure out what they're trying to mean.

So, in reality, those specs do NOT represent ANYTHING that is actually made in the marketplace. I encourage those engineers to write three different specs and include them: one for vendor A, a second for vendor B and a third for vendor C. As originally written, they are usually legally indefensible.

In this case, let's put aside battery acceptance. Whether the bank is 50% or 80% full can be considered either meaningless or equal in all cases. Regardless of the load, which could also be considered a "constant."

As Maine Sail has said, also disregard whether there's a smart or dumb regulator.

Now, the ONLY thing left is the speed of the alternator. Also, forget whether it's hot or cold.

As MS said, almost all alternators have curves that show that output INCREASES based on RPM.

Answer is simple: regardless of field current or battery acceptance, assuming each are equal in any given condition, a slower moving (engine at idle speed) alternator will never put out as much current as a faster moving alternator (at say 1,500 RPM) or higher.

That's the "real world" answer.

It is also supported by every battery monitor that shows system amperage.
 
Jul 1, 1998
3,062
Hunter Legend 35 Poulsbo/Semiahmoo WA
Generator and battery charger type

Bill - I've been gone for a few days but wanted to respond to your post. Going back to what I wrote about a true sine charger has a lot to do from my discussions with the Xantrex people and my problems with trying to use an EU1000i to charge the batteries without killing the generator.

Think you have your components confused John. there is no such thing as a true sine wave CHARGER. Lots of those (both true and not so true) sine wave INVERTERS but chargers take AC sine wave current and convert it into a DC (with ripple no doubt) 'wave" current. Ain't no sine about DC current.
This was several years ago now and frankly, I'm not as clear on the details.

My current inverter/charger is a Heart Freedom 10 which is one "big mother" of an inverter. I had the rare opportunity to have a detailed guided tour though the factory where they were made and the tour guide was their engineer in charge of development. Nice.

This inverter/charger has a HUGE transformer and this accounts for much of it's weight and bulk. When I talked to Xantrex who bought out Heart, along with all the control panels, I was trying to solve this gen set/inverter/charger problem. As the technician explained it to me it had a lot to do with the design of the Freedom 10, the waveform, and the transformer was also part of the problem, but not the cause.

The Xantrex inverter/chargers used a solid state system which as he explained it wouldn't cause the overload of the generator partly because of the design and partly because of the waveform. Unfortunately, their charger portion would still have to be throttled back to in the range of 30 to 33 amps and all they had at the time was the Truecharge 20 and 40 amp models. Their Truecharge and Prosine units were much lighter weight than the Freedom 10 due to the solid state design. Like I said, this was several years ago and I don't remember all the details except that the design and waveform were the important key items.

Not wanting to leave a lot of amps on the table so to speak, in the end I wound up just keeping the Freedom 10 with it's 50 amp charger capability. Initially I just used the engine and the Balmar high output alternator to do the initial bulk charge until the EU1000i could handle it and then turned the engine off and did the rest of the charging using the generator.

After a season of this I sold the 1000 and got a EU2000i but the mess actually worsened because the 2000 is much heavier and there was still all this explosive, stinky gasoline containers to deal with. Also needed two-cycle oil/gas mix for the outboard. Are we having fun yet?

After messing around with the generator and more gasoline than I wanted in the cockpit I wound up just going to solar and sold the generator. This is the life. Quiet, odor-free, and safe.

With 260 watts continuous hour after hour, on a halfway sunny day I dump the excess watts into the hot water heater but via the inverter. Next step is to get a 12-volt heater element and just go direct.
 
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