Battery Charger question...

May 20, 2016
3,014
Catalina 36 MK1 94 Everett, WA
round trip is 10'. No I didn't measure the voltage drop - I would have to go on a good cruise to deplete the batteries to the point they would accept the full 40A - I think the most I saw was 12A. ABYC says from an ampacity point of view 60A can be carried in a #10 (BlueSea wants 6, but derates for 80A, if it is not terminated on a fuse BlueSea indicates #10) Also if I read the table in the manual correctly - the length is not round trip - and #8 is good for up to 60A chargers. I also put #12 to feed the charger (mostly because the store was out of 14 and I need an addition 1.5 feet) which is also good for 60A. As an additional safety all wires are in open air (not inside a conduit as the tables assume).
les
 
Jan 22, 2008
8,050
Beneteau 323 Annapolis MD
I think it is being overlooked that the charger neg wire does not run from the charger to the batteries. It PROBABLY goes to a neg buss bar, so it's length is not the same as the pos cables, which most likely go to the batteries.

From a neg buss bar back to the batteries is already a cable in place, and it is a lot bigger than what the charger requires. Actually, there should be a fuse at the buss bar on the charger neg cable 4/6/8/etc.
 
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Aug 23, 2014
164
Catalina 310 Guntersville, Alabama
I think it is being overlooked that the charger neg wire does not run from the charger to the batteries. It PROBABLY goes to a neg buss bar, so it's length is not the same as the pos cables, which most likely go to the batteries.

From a neg buss bar back to the batteries is already a cable in place, and it is a lot bigger than what the charger requires. Actually, there should be a fuse at the buss bar on the charger neg cable 4/6/8/etc.
Ron,
On my 310 the neg charger wire leads directly to the battery and is the same length as the positive wire. Thanks
 
Oct 22, 2014
21,110
CAL 35 Cruiser #21 moored EVERETT WA
So SailFysh, Sounds like you bought the 40 Amp charger. You used 4awg wire after identifying the length for both the positive and negative leads so that you get 3% or less voltage drop from the wire. You are fusing the wire at the battery end of the positive lead with a fuse that is 120-130% of the charger output and below the 105c amp limit of the wire. And you do not have more than 2-3 connections on the batteries.
Sounds all good.
 
Aug 23, 2014
164
Catalina 310 Guntersville, Alabama
So SailFysh, Sounds like you bought the 40 Amp charger. You used 4awg wire after identifying the length for both the positive and negative leads so that you get 3% or less voltage drop from the wire. You are fusing the wire at the battery end of the positive lead with a fuse that is 120-130% of the charger output and below the 105c amp limit of the wire. And you do not have more than 2-3 connections on the batteries.
Sounds all good.
Yes.... Yes.... YES! Thanks for the confirmation jssailem. I think I've learned a lot. Thanks for the education guys. I didn't know how much I didn't know.
 
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Aug 23, 2014
164
Catalina 310 Guntersville, Alabama
bigwire.jpg
wiring.jpg
Here are pics... one showing the size of the cable I used from charger to battery and the other showing me putting the finishing touches on the installation.
 
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Nov 16, 2012
1,047
Catalina 310, 2000, #31 31 Santa Cruz
round trip is 10'. No I didn't measure the voltage drop - I would have to go on a good cruise to deplete the batteries to the point they would accept the full 40A - I think the most I saw was 12A. ABYC says from an ampacity point of view 60A can be carried in a #10 (BlueSea wants 6, but derates for 80A, if it is not terminated on a fuse BlueSea indicates #10) Also if I read the table in the manual correctly - the length is not round trip - and #8 is good for up to 60A chargers. I also put #12 to feed the charger (mostly because the store was out of 14 and I need an addition 1.5 feet) which is also good for 60A. As an additional safety all wires are in open air (not inside a conduit as the tables assume).
les
Leslie, the ABYC ampacity is only concerned with safety, and how many amps you can put through the wire without overheating. #10 can safely handle 60A, but after 10 feet of wire the voltage will be reduced significantly, which can be an issue for battery charging.

The ProMariner manual I've got says #8 can be used with the 40A charger @ 10 feet. The 50 and 60A chargers require at least #6 or larger. Both the Blue Sea table and West Marine graph show the same for the 40A and that 60A requires #6 or larger.

#14 for the AC wiring is fine. The 60A charger only draws 11A. Most likely the AC breaker is 15 A anyway.
 
Nov 16, 2012
1,047
Catalina 310, 2000, #31 31 Santa Cruz
No it's #10. I like the 40. Some folks are using the 20 with no problem so I think the 60 is too much for the way we use our boat.
I looked at the wiring diagrams from Catalina for the C310 that I've got. One of them shows #10 for the charger to battery, the other shows #4. Very odd. Guess I lucked out...
 
Feb 6, 1998
11,674
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
Leslie, the ABYC ampacity is only concerned with safety, and how many amps you can put through the wire without overheating. #10 can safely handle 60A, but after 10 feet of wire the voltage will be reduced significantly, which can be an issue for battery charging.

The ProMariner manual I've got says #8 can be used with the 40A charger @ 10 feet. The 50 and 60A chargers require at least #6 or larger. Both the Blue Sea table and West Marine graph show the same for the 40A and that 60A requires #6 or larger.

#14 for the AC wiring is fine. The 60A charger only draws 11A. Most likely the AC breaker is 15 A anyway.
I generally aim for less than 2% with chargers inclusive of all fuses & terminations.. Just finished an installation of a 60A today and it got 2GA wire.

12V Nominal @ 2% Drop 40A Charger - (Circuit = total wire length for neg and pos)

10' Circuit = 8GA - 2.15% VD
12' Circuit = 8GA - 2.58% VD
12' Circuit = 6GA - 1.63% VD
14' Circuit = 8GA - 3.02% VD
14' Circuit = 6GA - 1.9% VD
16' Circuit = 8GA - 3.44% VD
16' Circuit = 6GA - 2.17% VD
18' Circuit = 6GA - 2.44% VD
18' Circuit = 4GA - 1.53% VD
20' Circuit = 6GA - 2.71% VD
20' Circuit = 4GA - 1.7% VD
24' Circuit = 6GA - 3.25% VD
24' Circuit = 4GA - 2.04% VD

Here's a real world example of "sizing for 3%"

Q: "RC I sized my alternator system for a 3% voltage drop but it is exceeding this by quite a bit. Did I calculate incorrectly? Tom"

A: "Tom,

It's called the real world. You sized for 3% which is already a -0.44V drop at 14.7V, not ideal for a performance charging system without voltage sensing, but that 3% sizing is for the wire only. Even good techs often forget that the charts for wire sizing completely ignore all the other things that add to the total voltage drop.

For most circuits a 3% volt drop is a fine target to aim for but it is not adequate for performance charging system where you expect your inverter to remain in bulk at near voltage parity with the battery terminals. Your early absorption issue is because the design calcs did not account for total as installed voltage drop between the IC and the bank.. This is why your assumed target for bulk charging for an hour, on your multi day offshore racing passages, do not meet expectations. It is also why I suggested to aim for less than 2% drop. We will need to tweak it when you get back."

Real world also meant that when the wires were finally run, the length, according to the owner, "was a tad longer." The wire passed through multiple lugs/terminals, a fuse, switch, busbar etc. and each and every connection adds more voltage drop to the wires loss.. For termination calcs I use 0.00025Ω when I make the terminations and 0.00040Ω when someone else does.

Each lug is; Wire to Lug as #1 > Lug to XX Point as #2.

For example an ANL fuse would have a total of 5 points of resistance.

Two connection points per lug then the fuse itself.

This 0.00040Ω seems to bear out quite often. Let's run the numbers on just the connection points at say 40A with the average connections I see on many battery charger installs:

12 *Connection points at 0.00040 = 0.0048

40A X 0.0048 = -0.192V

This drop, 0.192V, would be added to the cable volt drop.

*0.00040 is still assuming the connections are clean, tight and not made with a dime store crimp tool.
 
Aug 23, 2014
164
Catalina 310 Guntersville, Alabama
I have been amazed at the wire sizes... I had no idea until this project. When I actually pulled the old wires out the length was 21 feet and it was #10!

If I follow the charts I need #2 also with 40 amp charger at 21 feet.
 
Nov 16, 2012
1,047
Catalina 310, 2000, #31 31 Santa Cruz
I have been amazed at the wire sizes... I had no idea until this project. When I actually pulled the old wires out the length was 21 feet and it was #10!

If I follow the charts I need #2 also with 40 amp charger at 21 feet.
I think #4 is ok for you. Also based on Maine Sail's reply just above.
 

walt

.
Jun 1, 2007
3,511
Macgregor 26S Hobie TI Ridgway Colorado
It's called the real world. You sized for 3% which is already a -0.44V drop at 14.7V
Curious.. you would get that sort of voltage drop for a 40 amp charger in bulk.. but when you get up near those float or maintenance voltage (where the drops really matter), isnt the current in the real world always much smaller than the bulk charging current? Ie, battery acceptance is limiting current at those highest voltage levels - so voltage drops are also going to be down when it really matters and you need to be accurate.
 
Feb 6, 1998
11,674
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
I think #4 is ok for you. Also based on Maine Sail's reply just above.
I think his 21' feet is one way, or a 42' circuit.... We had a Catalina 310 and the factory wiring was chock full of poor decisions and bad practices..
 
Nov 16, 2012
1,047
Catalina 310, 2000, #31 31 Santa Cruz
Mine is 21' x 2 = 42' total. Think #4 is ok?
42', #10? Wow, we really lucked out with our C310. I don't see how they managed to use that much wire to go from the charger to the battery. The whole boat's only 31' long! Can you run it more directly?
 
Aug 23, 2014
164
Catalina 310 Guntersville, Alabama
42', #10? Wow, we really lucked out with our C310. I don't see how they managed to use that much wire to go from the charger to the battery. The whole boat's only 31' long! Can you run it more directly?
Going to take a look tomorrow. It runs pretty direct until it gets into the aft area past the berth where it runs up the edge of the access door and then across the top of the access door to the charger. I really thought about mounting to the wall in the aft berth just behind the engine. That would probably cut the distance in half.