Catalina nation, Here's yet another one for you experts...I noticed this week-end that if I don't have my battery Charger (Automatic West Marine Unit)turned on, the voltage level on the batteries drops despite the fact that I have nothing powered up. So my power seems to drain despite having no demands. I checked everything, instruments and or marine "toys" etc...I have on board to ensure that they are off it all seems O.K. Any idea on what could cause such drainage or are the batteries shot and can't keep a charge? If it is the later, how can I verify them? Furthermore, when running the engine, although the "Amp gauge" reads in the positive, my power level in the batteries also drops on both batteries? Would this change the conclusion of the above? Thanks again, Ghislain "Emilie-Jolie" C30 1987
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Huh? (Batteries Drain All by Themselves)
Unless you have magic batteries, they drain all by themselves, without any load. The question is: How Much? You need to know that, and help us out with more information, so we can help you. Since you have a West Marine charger, you may have read the West Marine Advisors. Chargers put higher voltages into batteries than batteries at rest. They charge at 14.2 or so, then down to 13.8. A full battery is 12.8 V, a dead one is only about a volt less. Nice to have a boat, with batteries. A bit of research on your own will surely help.
Unless you have magic batteries, they drain all by themselves, without any load. The question is: How Much? You need to know that, and help us out with more information, so we can help you. Since you have a West Marine charger, you may have read the West Marine Advisors. Chargers put higher voltages into batteries than batteries at rest. They charge at 14.2 or so, then down to 13.8. A full battery is 12.8 V, a dead one is only about a volt less. Nice to have a boat, with batteries. A bit of research on your own will surely help.
Power savvy!
Stu, Thanks, I don't know exactly how they drop by, but I noticed my battery meter (Perhaps, it is defective) that they can go from fully charged (app. 12-13 volts on the scale) to below 10 volts level pretty rapidly and by the end of the day they were even lower. I will most certainly monitor it in the next few days and try to come up with more information. Meanwhile, in your experience, can there be something like an open solenoid or whatever else that I could be missing? Keeping in mind that this is my first boat with inboard, alternator etc, so what could be obvious to you all, is most cetainly not to me. Thanks for not given up. If I turn the main DC switch to off, in all intent purposes the power level should not change if they hold their charge, right? Cheers mate, Ghislain "Emilie-Jolie" C30 1987
Stu, Thanks, I don't know exactly how they drop by, but I noticed my battery meter (Perhaps, it is defective) that they can go from fully charged (app. 12-13 volts on the scale) to below 10 volts level pretty rapidly and by the end of the day they were even lower. I will most certainly monitor it in the next few days and try to come up with more information. Meanwhile, in your experience, can there be something like an open solenoid or whatever else that I could be missing? Keeping in mind that this is my first boat with inboard, alternator etc, so what could be obvious to you all, is most cetainly not to me. Thanks for not given up. If I turn the main DC switch to off, in all intent purposes the power level should not change if they hold their charge, right? Cheers mate, Ghislain "Emilie-Jolie" C30 1987
Battery Discharge
Well, batteries discharge primarily from having a closed circuit that permits current to flow. A voltmeter across the terminals can be one such circuit. Also, check that charger unit, as it might actually be a "closed circuit" once the input power to it is shut off. If your bilge pump or a fan cycles on/off, that too. Another possibility is that you have a bad cell that is actually shunting off current internally. There might be enough internal resistance to allow it to take a charge, but that can dissipate quickly once the charging current is removed. Try putting your battery switch to a "full off" right after charging (NEVER during the charging!). Make sure any voltmeter is disconnected, too. Then come back in a day and see what is going on. If the battery voltage is way down, it is either bad or there is a hidden circuit out there. You can usually detect a "hidden circuit" with an ohmmeter set to about a 10 to 100 ohm scale. Disconnect the wire(s) from the battery's positive terminal. An ohmmeter has an internal battery, usually 1.5 to 3.0 volts. make sure the ohmmeter's positive probe (usually red) goes to those wires, and the negative (usually black) goes to the negative terminal on the battery -- this polarity is important. Try this with the battery switch in both the "OFF" and "ON" positions. If you are reading anything other than infinity, there is a "sneak path" somewhere. Good luck --RonD
Well, batteries discharge primarily from having a closed circuit that permits current to flow. A voltmeter across the terminals can be one such circuit. Also, check that charger unit, as it might actually be a "closed circuit" once the input power to it is shut off. If your bilge pump or a fan cycles on/off, that too. Another possibility is that you have a bad cell that is actually shunting off current internally. There might be enough internal resistance to allow it to take a charge, but that can dissipate quickly once the charging current is removed. Try putting your battery switch to a "full off" right after charging (NEVER during the charging!). Make sure any voltmeter is disconnected, too. Then come back in a day and see what is going on. If the battery voltage is way down, it is either bad or there is a hidden circuit out there. You can usually detect a "hidden circuit" with an ohmmeter set to about a 10 to 100 ohm scale. Disconnect the wire(s) from the battery's positive terminal. An ohmmeter has an internal battery, usually 1.5 to 3.0 volts. make sure the ohmmeter's positive probe (usually red) goes to those wires, and the negative (usually black) goes to the negative terminal on the battery -- this polarity is important. Try this with the battery switch in both the "OFF" and "ON" positions. If you are reading anything other than infinity, there is a "sneak path" somewhere. Good luck --RonD
Discharge
G Ron had some good points. Turning the battery switch on or off, however, shouldn't make a difference. In lieu of rewriting the book on electrical systems for boats, and given your description, I would guess that either of two things are going on. One, you have either a bad ground or an open circuit. Two, you have a dead battery bank or a dead cell in one of your battery bank's batteries. The best advice I can give you is to do more electrical system research on your own, specifically Calder's Boatowner's Manual, or even Don Casey's electrical little handbook, and trace all your wires out yourself. Don't know your experience level or interest, but your question was well phrased and you should be able to work it out, step by step. Check the connections, check the wires, check the batteries, etc. This is not another 'Good luck' response, but simply guidance for you to begin to get into more detail for the issues that you face on your boat. There are more electrical boating issues than ever before, because of the demands put on electrical systems that are not incorporated in even new boats being produced and sold today. Stu
G Ron had some good points. Turning the battery switch on or off, however, shouldn't make a difference. In lieu of rewriting the book on electrical systems for boats, and given your description, I would guess that either of two things are going on. One, you have either a bad ground or an open circuit. Two, you have a dead battery bank or a dead cell in one of your battery bank's batteries. The best advice I can give you is to do more electrical system research on your own, specifically Calder's Boatowner's Manual, or even Don Casey's electrical little handbook, and trace all your wires out yourself. Don't know your experience level or interest, but your question was well phrased and you should be able to work it out, step by step. Check the connections, check the wires, check the batteries, etc. This is not another 'Good luck' response, but simply guidance for you to begin to get into more detail for the issues that you face on your boat. There are more electrical boating issues than ever before, because of the demands put on electrical systems that are not incorporated in even new boats being produced and sold today. Stu
Thanks once more.
Gents, Thanks again, and Stu you're right, I do have a keen sense of interest for learning about this stuff...thus the reason for coming to this forum to get some well experience guidance to start the ground work... I'll will look up these books and will carry some of the test suggested by both you and Ron. I didnot want ot simply buy new batteries, in case I actually have an internal issue to address first. I'll keep you posted Cheers, Ghislain "Emilie-Jolie" C30 1987
Gents, Thanks again, and Stu you're right, I do have a keen sense of interest for learning about this stuff...thus the reason for coming to this forum to get some well experience guidance to start the ground work... I'll will look up these books and will carry some of the test suggested by both you and Ron. I didnot want ot simply buy new batteries, in case I actually have an internal issue to address first. I'll keep you posted Cheers, Ghislain "Emilie-Jolie" C30 1987
Bad Batteries
Sounds like a case of bad battery(ies)....Would suggest pulling them out and having them tested at a local Napa store or service station...They can load the batteries up and if there is a bad cell it will quickly show up.....I had somewhat of a similiar problem on a dual set of 8D batteries....Turned out in the end that the voltage regulator was not charging at 13 plus volts....The alternator would put a false 12 volt charge so that you thought the battery was fully charged, when in fact it only had a surface charge and not a deep charge...Good luck....
Sounds like a case of bad battery(ies)....Would suggest pulling them out and having them tested at a local Napa store or service station...They can load the batteries up and if there is a bad cell it will quickly show up.....I had somewhat of a similiar problem on a dual set of 8D batteries....Turned out in the end that the voltage regulator was not charging at 13 plus volts....The alternator would put a false 12 volt charge so that you thought the battery was fully charged, when in fact it only had a surface charge and not a deep charge...Good luck....
batteries
Chislain; I notice no one has mentioned your specific gravity. Have you checked it? Are all plates covered with electrolyte? Charge up the batteries, disconnect the negative terminal and let it sit for 24 hours. Check the SG. If any one cell is significantly less than the others, the battery is at fault. Try equalizing them with a suitable charger; you might bring them back.
Chislain; I notice no one has mentioned your specific gravity. Have you checked it? Are all plates covered with electrolyte? Charge up the batteries, disconnect the negative terminal and let it sit for 24 hours. Check the SG. If any one cell is significantly less than the others, the battery is at fault. Try equalizing them with a suitable charger; you might bring them back.
Eureka!!!
Gents, Just thought I conclude this one with one last update. Carry out a fairly thorough inspection of our electrical system with the advice we had received. Also found some great information at: www.islandnet.com/robb/marine.html I did not find any open circuits, found several connections that neede to be cleaned up, remade etc. The alternator need a good cleaning as several connection were corroded etc. I inspected the batteries (13.5-13.87V)and all was fine, checked the battery charger, it was doing its job and the one thing that I had taken for granted and did not even considered could be the problem was my battery monitoring gauge. It also ended up the last bloody thing I checked, it seems to be the problem as it was reading substantially lower than my voltmeter. Good news, the health of my electrical system has improved with the inspection, my knowledge of our vessel increased and I'm off the find a new more reliable power monitoring system. I thank you all for your great help. G "Emilie-Jolie" C30 1987
Gents, Just thought I conclude this one with one last update. Carry out a fairly thorough inspection of our electrical system with the advice we had received. Also found some great information at: www.islandnet.com/robb/marine.html I did not find any open circuits, found several connections that neede to be cleaned up, remade etc. The alternator need a good cleaning as several connection were corroded etc. I inspected the batteries (13.5-13.87V)and all was fine, checked the battery charger, it was doing its job and the one thing that I had taken for granted and did not even considered could be the problem was my battery monitoring gauge. It also ended up the last bloody thing I checked, it seems to be the problem as it was reading substantially lower than my voltmeter. Good news, the health of my electrical system has improved with the inspection, my knowledge of our vessel increased and I'm off the find a new more reliable power monitoring system. I thank you all for your great help. G "Emilie-Jolie" C30 1987
Great news
Glad your problem is solved. We do tend to take our instrumentation calibration for granted. I re-learned something from this. I had a learned teacher once who said "you cannot begin to learn until you are confused." He confused us often ... --RonD
Glad your problem is solved. We do tend to take our instrumentation calibration for granted. I re-learned something from this. I had a learned teacher once who said "you cannot begin to learn until you are confused." He confused us often ... --RonD
Energy Monitor?
Ghislain, You might want to consider getting an energy monitor (such as the Link 10). It tells you more than a digital voltmeter, and infinitely more than an analog "battery condition meter". Just a thought.
Ghislain, You might want to consider getting an energy monitor (such as the Link 10). It tells you more than a digital voltmeter, and infinitely more than an analog "battery condition meter". Just a thought.
Tell me more!
Tom, Thanks for the information, I did not dare push this issue anyfurther onto the forum members and I had started looking for some decent alternative for monitoring my system...more learning! Could you give more information on the "link 10", manufacturer, website etc? Cheers, G "Emilie-Jolie" C30, 1987
Tom, Thanks for the information, I did not dare push this issue anyfurther onto the forum members and I had started looking for some decent alternative for monitoring my system...more learning! Could you give more information on the "link 10", manufacturer, website etc? Cheers, G "Emilie-Jolie" C30, 1987
Got it!
Tom, sorry I was a bit slow on the take...took me two minute to find manufacturer: Xantrex at www.xantrex.com for anyone else interested. If there's any other ideas on this issue, I welcome your ideas and feedback! G "Emilie-Jolie" C30 1987
Tom, sorry I was a bit slow on the take...took me two minute to find manufacturer: Xantrex at www.xantrex.com for anyone else interested. If there's any other ideas on this issue, I welcome your ideas and feedback! G "Emilie-Jolie" C30 1987
New DC System?
Ghislain, In addition to the energy monitor, other things you might want to consider (all mentioned in Calder's book): Dedicated starting battery, charged by combiner or echo-charger (not isolator). Combine your two existing batteries to form one larger house bank. Alternator regulator (multi-stage). Heavier gauge battery cables. Doing the above would not be super-expensive, but would vastly improve your DC system. Another more expensive step would be a high-output alternator. You could go beserk with the credit card, but you have to set your own priorities. Good Luck.
Ghislain, In addition to the energy monitor, other things you might want to consider (all mentioned in Calder's book): Dedicated starting battery, charged by combiner or echo-charger (not isolator). Combine your two existing batteries to form one larger house bank. Alternator regulator (multi-stage). Heavier gauge battery cables. Doing the above would not be super-expensive, but would vastly improve your DC system. Another more expensive step would be a high-output alternator. You could go beserk with the credit card, but you have to set your own priorities. Good Luck.
MORE INFO !!!!
One day I downloaded a PDF file from the following web site WWW.VICTRONENERGY.COM This is a great booklet on understanding "ELECTRICITY ON BOARD SMALL AND LARGE YACHTS" by Reinout Vader dated Sept 5-2002. It has more info on boat electricity then I'll ever need but just the right info at the right time. Good luck Dave
One day I downloaded a PDF file from the following web site WWW.VICTRONENERGY.COM This is a great booklet on understanding "ELECTRICITY ON BOARD SMALL AND LARGE YACHTS" by Reinout Vader dated Sept 5-2002. It has more info on boat electricity then I'll ever need but just the right info at the right time. Good luck Dave
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