Batteries - A Stupid Question

[Maine Sail]

Sorry to drag this battery discussion out. I was getting confused with these "Dual Purpose" Marine/Starting batteries.
A friend told me that there only two types, starting and deep cycle. That dual purpose, or DeepCycle/Starting batteries are marketing propaganda.
Wanting to understand, I did a lot of online research and made some phone calls to manufacturers. So, as Maine Sail said, the only battery to care about is the true Deep-Cycle. Anything else is not rated to cycle.

I found this on Sterline-Power's site and it is pretty much verbatim what my electrician friend told me... Take it FWIW...

The brutal truth about marine leisure batteries
http://sterling-power.eu/support-faq-2.htm

There is no such thing as a marine battery.

SNIP """"""""""""""""

Conclusion

The best battery to use for fast charging using advanced charging systems

For general leisure use: use low cost Lead Acid which can be topped up with water. So called leisure batteries
For long term cruising then use 6 volt traction
Avoid Gel / AGM for 3 reasons

very expensive
their fast charger rate causes them to gas
poor cycling numbers.

Please be aware that Charlie is so full of bovine dung on a lot of this article that it is barely laughable to anyone who knows what they are talking about. One needs to consider the point that Charlie is perhaps the last external regulator maker on the planet claiming "faster charging", as their primary marketing push. He can only do this at voltages of 14.8V and above, often above 15.0V+, otherwise his claims are pure BS because 14.4V is 14.4V is 14.4V all day long to the battery. You can't do 14.8V+ with GEL and AGM batteries so he bashes them as being useless because it gets in the way of his fast charge (at super high voltages) claims.....

His claims on GEL cycle numbers are also entirely bogus and this can be easily verified by actual nationally funded fully independent laboratories such as Sandia National Labs.....

Beyond that next time you are at Annapolis or Newport or any other boat show where Ocean Planet Energy / Bruce Schwab Energy Systems is, stop into the booth and ask Bruce what bank of batteries he circumnavigated the globe with TWICE.... Yes the same bank of GEL batteries survived two solo around the world Vendee Globe challenges, same batteries around the world TWO TIMES. The life of batteries aboard a round-the-world race boat is NOT an easy life and Bruce quite regularly took them to 80-90% DOD.. But yeah GEL's suck.... Utter rubbish.

While much of that article is spot on, that article was most likely written to back up other unrealistic claims made by Charlie.... I have no qualms calling Charlie out on this because I have done it person to person and I am a Sterling dealer. I sell a lot of Charlie's stuff and have zero issues calling him out when he creatively markets... I don't purposely molest/twist the truth/reality to my customers but Charlie sometimes does.

He's all about marketing, no matter how creatively he does it...... Brilliant guy, makes some excellent products but is a marketing maven above all else.

Please read carefully and you'll see that his fast charging claims are not directly geared towards "traction batteries" but rather towards cheap thin plate refillable flooded batteries akin to our US starting or dual purpose batteries.. Why? Because he knows damn well what happens when you try to charge thick plate deep cycle flooded "traction" batteries quickly as do all the actual battery manufacturers..

What should the key take-away be?

2V or 6V or 12V (12V - apparently he is unaware these exist) "traction" (eg: golf cart / fork truck / sweeper scrubber) batteries are a great deep cycle battery

 

[jonelli]

Good comments. I guess I didn't care about the fast charging argument. I was only concerned with knowing what the heck a dual purpose really is.
I've been finding a nice blue "marine" label on batteries that are dual purpose and the vendors calling them all deep cycle. That's the confusing part I was most concerned with.

I read some of your articles. I like your ideas on wiring the 2/B/1/OFF switches. I'm planning on doing that along with a combiner/isolator.

 

[Maine Sail]

Good comments. I guess I didn't care about the fast charging argument. I was only concerned with knowing what the heck a dual purpose really is.
I've been finding a nice blue "marine" label on batteries that are dual purpose and the vendors calling them all deep cycle. That's the confusing part I was most concerned with.

I read some of your articles. I like your ideas on wiring the 2/B/1/OFF switches. I'm planning on doing that along with a combiner/isolator.

Perhaps you missed this link in post #17??

What is a "Deep Cycle" Battery?

 

[jonelli]

You're absolutely right. I did miss that one somehow. It still wouldn't have stopped me from trying to understand why it's so confusing. I'm stubborn that way.
Your articles are good and very technical. But the issue about dual purpose and deep cycle is obviously not clear to 98% of the users and sales people I've talked to out there and it is very frustrating to learn what is right & wrong, or good & bad when you're new to this.

I really liked your battery orientation article BTW. That was very informative.

 

[chrisings]

My .02, and just first hand experience, we replaced our batteries last year with Napa "deep cycle" which I believe are Deka? Doesn't really matter, my point is that the deep cycles crank our M 25XP fast and long with no issue at all. Adding a third "starting" battery is on my list but only so that I can double my house bank amp hours and still have a dedicated (isolated might be a better term) starting battery. To keep my alternator happy I would use the same type "deep cycle" battery as the third starting battery.

 

[jonelli]

This is what I'm talking about that is so confusing! Look at this Interstate battery. If you saw this sitting on the shelf would you think it's a true deep cycle battery? Well, it's not. It's a dual purpose battery. I called them and verified. The have another series called the PRO-ECL Line which is a true deep cycle, but not this one. This is the kind of thing that ticks me off. How is someone supposed to know? The funny thing is that this battery, labeled "deep cycle", the SRM-27 doesn't mention # of cycles on any spec. The Pro ECL does.

 

[Stu Jackson]

...it is very frustrating to learn what is right & wrong, or good & bad when you're new to this.

I've found it to be just the opposite.

 

[jonelli]

Okay, misworded.
It's frustrating trying to figure it out. It's good to learn.

 

[JK_Boston_Catalina310]

That's why we are lucky to have Maine Sail. He broke it down for you. Put it in plan English and explained what you need to look for in a true deep cycle battery.

 

[Maine Sail]

This is what I'm talking about that is so confusing! Look at this Interstate battery. If you saw this sitting on the shelf would you think it's a true deep cycle battery? Well, it's not. It's a dual purpose battery. I called them and verified. The have another series called the PRO-ECL Line which is a true deep cycle, but not this one. This is the kind of thing that ticks me off. How is someone supposed to know? The funny thing is that this battery, labeled "deep cycle", the SRM-27 doesn't mention # of cycles on any spec. The Pro ECL does.

The point is not that these batteries won't work, they will work and do work but they are not a true "deep cycle" battery so they are essentially misleading you about what you are getting. The misleading part is the part I take offense at. All I ask is that they are honest!!

I will say it again: There are no "deep cycle" group 24, 27, 29 or 31 flooded deep cycle batteries!! The "deep cycle" in those batteries only exists on the sticker and in the marketing departemnt.....

There are group 24, 27, 29 & 31's that are deeper cycling than a group 24, 27, 29 or 31 starting or dual purpose battery but when compared to an actual deep cycle battery, built for the daily abuses of a heavy cycling application, like a GC2, 12V GC batteries, L16's, T1275's J305's etc. etc. the 24, 27, 29 & 31 are not at all deep cycle they are at best "medium cycle"....

 

[jonelli]

Ed Zachary, Maine Sail. I went to a trusted specialized battery shop to swap out my batteries, and they pretty much told me the same thing. Although they claimed to have the deeper cycle ones for me and said that should be enough for my purposes. They said they see the manufacturing process in their batteries and know that what I bought is the thickest plate 27 deep cycle without being what you said, a Trojan or GC battery.