Balance

[Roland5048]

Agreed. A little weather helm helps you feel the rudder. Especially with a wheel. My wheel has six spokes. One spoke is the king spoke, marked, and when straight up the rudder is neutral. When sailing on a close reach, I try to limit the turn of the wheel to one spoke off the KS. That gives me about 3 degrees of rudder. If the KS drops to near or below horizontal, I feel much more pressure on the rudder, have much more heel, and know a sail trim or course change is in order. With a tiller you always know the position of the rudder. Going downwind is another story. Rudder is more neutral which results in less pressure on the rudder and, of course, a flatter ride.

 

[Arctic Pro]

The original writer Plenny7 definitely experiences prop walk as the prime culprit when under power. Stern swings to port in reverse, starboard when powering forward. Can't be helped - it's the nature of a turning prop. If it is severe - like my Hunter 34 - it could that he is over-propped (too much pitch). My boat has 15x15 2-blade where the standard is 15x10 or 15x12.
Vicious prop walk ensues, both a help and hindrance in docking. And, let the wheel go under power and you will execute a quick 360 to port!
The BIG win is I cruise at 6.25 knots, at only 2,250 rpm using only 1.5 litres an hour! German Yanmar mechanic said not to worry about cruising at such a low rpm - the engine is loaded up like a car would be going uphill in high gear. It is working hard in a different way than grinding away at 2800-3000 rpm as is normal. So.....check your prop pitch next time your are hauled.

 

[Adventureboy]

As we headed up wind and started to heel, I was pleasantly surprised to see we hit the sweet spot for balance. At a 15 degree heel I was able to let go of the wheel for what seemed like a couple of minutes and the wheel hardly moved as we went along. Heeling no longer felt uncomfortable, at least not for me. Now, instead of just thinking about how to power/depower the sails, we'll be also thinking more about balance and how that affects the handling.

I expect you have a 130%-140% Genoa or similar for a head sail? We achieve better results balancing by furling the head sail a bit first on forward points of sail. This moves the center of effort for the head sail forward and balances out the full main reducing weather helm (caused by the center of effort across both sails too far behind the mast). The larger genoas on today's modern boats have a fairly aft center of effort when fully deployed due to the large overlap. The result on our boat (forward points of sail) is less heeling and more speed instead of less heeling and less speed as with the reefed main and full genoa (although either way will balance the helm). In fact, to wind, in +10 knots, our boat is a fair bit faster with a bit of furl on the head sail likely due to lower drag on the rudder. Fine tune balance with traveler and sheets of course.
I've set up some guiding parameters for our boat (Beneteau 393) for beam reach forward sailing. You'll have to play with your boat to find what works best. This works for us giving only a couple of degrees of weather helm (lee helm, not good - a few degrees of weather helm is good and causes the correct reaction to wind during gusts without applying significant amounts of attention to the wind vane). In fact, it works so well, we can lock the helm a few degrees to weather and steer with the sheets if the wind is steady and sea calm (I wouldn't try this past 10-12 knot winds though). If it is gusty, I drop the upper number a bit and reef/furl earlier
5-12 knots - full sails and eased outhaul (wife is happy)
12-16 knots - tighten outhaul, lightly furl head sail, - even furling the first foot has a massive effect here - hull speed achieved occasionally while reaching (I find this wind to be the most fun - wife is ok)
16-20 knots 1 reef in main and more furled head sail - hull speed maintained even exceeded while reaching (use wisely - this shakes up the wife)
20-25 Knots - double reef main and more furled head sail (what the heck am I doing out here -this is shaking up both the wife and the beer)
>25knot - gunkhole and beer (if possible, get there long before the second reef so the wife is still happy and the beer not shaken;-) )

 

[SkipR]

I've sailed many of the Hunters produced in the past 12 years (356, 37, 38, 41). ALL of them have a pronounced (often unmanageable) weather helm if the main is not reefed aggressively. Where I sail, on SF Bay, winds are almost always >20 knots. I have found that, for upwind sailing, the Hunters need to be reefed starting at 15 knots. When the winds get to 25 knots, the most comfortable solution is to stow the main and sail jib-only.

 

[Cayennita]

It appears that you have not flatten the main with all means available. Your boat has a wing/bulb combination 4.5 feet draft keel. Also it is a fractional rig. With no reefs and tight cunningham and outhaul, combined with a lot of backstay tension, some vang and traveler down, you will find akmost the same feel as two reefs and nothing else adjusted.
I had a Legend 35 and I could balance the helm with winds up to 20 knots with a 150% genoa and never herl more than 20 degrees. At that angle the shallow keel works better and the boat side slip is very little because of that flat bulb eith winglets. BTW I also added runners eventually that gave me more adjustments.
A well trimmed genoa will help to keep the weather helm to a minimun. Try this: go hard on the wind and ease the genoa. The boat will rotate up. Do the reverse, ease main and trim genoa in. The boat will rotate down. I use this when racing and playing for position at the starting line.
There is a sweet spot between the two.

 

[Kermit]

I recently had my sails balanced and sailed without touching the wheel for 20 minutes. I finally had to tack to avoid hitting the oncoming shore. (Which had the right-of-way since I was on a port tack.) My sail trim was not particularly good but the boat was perfectly balanced. I found myself forgetting to be in charge of driving. At one point I started to doze off. Not really safe but dang it was a good feeling.

 

[Cayennita]

My wife and I sailed our liveaboard Idylle 15.5 (51') for 4 years without autopilot. From St. Croix to Trinidad and back three times and from Trinidad to Maine to Key West, Cuba and Isla Mujeres before buying an auto pilot. We were able to balance the sails and used the wheel lock. I took 15 minutes naps all night long. Awaken, adjust and go back to napping. It can be done.

 

[BudGates]

Something to keep in mind is that your position will also affect balance, more so on smaller boats. If you have your sails perfectly balanced and you move, either forward or aft, your weight will effectively alter the mast rake (and keel position though not as much).

 

[LeGe]

I've sailed my 33.5 for 24 years. It has a huge mailsail. The boat is over canvassed so reefing early is a must. I know one fellow owner who always set the 2nd reef, never the 1st. The large main means the boat will sail relatively well under main alone (letting the traveler down seems to help with speed). Ride is a little bouncy under main alone in any kind of a chop, but sailing the boat is less work. 2nd reef with headsail is probably a good combination for this boat. The boat needs headsail to track downwind, otherwise it gets squirreley. Don't worry about what other boats are doing, reef the first time you think about doing it. 12 knots is my decision point, wuss that I am, especially if I'm going to carry the headsail. The answer to the question "should I reef?" is always yes. In general, you should never heel more than 20 degrees, nor should steering upwind be a chore.

Excuse my ignorance but what do you mean with "letting your traveler down" - do you mean letting it out towards leeward? We also sail a new to us this year 33.5 and I've noticed that the main seems to get "back winded" by the headsail when, in my opinion (tell tales streaming smoothly on both sides), the headsail is properly trimmed. I've tried moving the mainsail traveler up (to windward) to try and get a moother airflow over the main but all that does is slow us down...

 

[rfrye1]

Regarding prop walk/wash. I was having vibration issues on my H376 that haunted me for sometime at higher rpm. Had the boat pulled for bottom paint recently and redid cutlass, re-alignment ect. Still had issues. Had my diver pull the OEM 2 blade prop and send it out. Ends up the 2 blade was way out of whack. OMG, what a difference. Prop wash/walk is nil compared to before. Total cost was only $350 incl diver. Something that prob should be on the every 5 year maintainence schedule.

 

[TRFrederick]

Cayennita reminds me of a wonderful sail in our H23.5 on an inland lake. In a somewhat steady, ~6-8 knot wind, she had just a little weather helm. I snugged up the Davis Tiller Tamer and sat back for a good 20 minutes without touching the tiller. When the wind would slack off a bit, she would fall off the wind and gain speed. If the wind picked up and she started heeling a little more, she would round up to get back to the initial speed/heel.

This is the same physics of stability that is used in a conventional airplane. The elevator trim (tiller position) sets the speed relative to the air (water). If the speed gets lower, the nose drops (boat falls off) and gains speed. If the speed gets higher, the nose lifts (boat rounds up) and it slows down.

Call me what you want, it felt really good to sit back and observe and know that I understood the physics underlying the observations.

 

[GGordonWoody]

5-12 knots - full sails and eased outhaul (wife is happy)
12-16 knots - tighten outhaul, lightly furl head sail, - even furling the first foot has a massive effect here - hull speed achieved occasionally while reaching (I find this wind to be the most fun - wife is ok)
16-20 knots 1 reef in main and more furled head sail - hull speed maintained even exceeded while reaching (use wisely - this shakes up the wife)
20-25 Knots - double reef main and more furled head sail (what the heck am I doing out here -this is shaking up both the wife and the beer)
>25knot - gunkhole and beer (if possible, get there long before the second reef so the wife is still happy and the beer not shaken;-) )

I'm writing this down...

 

[frankies56]

all boats have and inherent pull from prop walk even power boats have the same problem hence if you have two motors one turn right the other left they cancel each other. balance on the sail is a wonderful thing bus as the preveous post I perfer just a slight weather hell as the wind is never constant and in a gust things could get ugly. I dont think that tuning the rig is as important as having the right sail for the job, hence forth roller furling. I remember having five diferent head sals on my cal 28,

 

[jssailem]

Balance. Sail pressure matching water pressure on keel or center board.
I used to sail my Montgomery 15 miles by balancing the sails and locking the tiller. Could adjust course upto 20 degrees by sitting in different places on the boat.

 

[Daveinet]

How much twist are you able to induce in your main? If you are healing a lot, spilling more at the top of the sail will reduce healing.

I do have a question, how in the world can a boat with SA/D of 16.87 need to reef in 10 to 12 knots?? Ballast is generous, so that is not an issue? I have a light ballast and a SA/D of 26.85 and don't reef till we hit 20 knots. What am I not understanding?

 

[Cayennita]

Let it down, ease it down, etc, all means the same. Lowering the traveller will ease the helm. Of course, you close the slot between the two sails. Unless you are racing and trying to go hard to windward, then ease your jib a little or attach a barber hauler and move it tiwards the rail. You need to adjust outhaul, cunningham, vang, back stay if you have one. All those will help to flatten the main. Also you might need to retune the rig and add more prebend.

 

[Rick486]

First a wordy post about how we found balance in the sails this past weekend, finishing with a somewhat related question about balance under power.

On several previous sails, most of which were when our friend owned our current boat, a Hunter 33.5, we'd get to heeling at an uncomfortable angle (for us noobs) but eventually I realized that what made it uncomfortable for me was not the heel angle, but the weather helm. It would feel like I was constantly fighting with the boat, much like a strong dog pulling on a leash. It would want to turn into the wind, while I wanted to go straight. As guests on the boat, adjusting the sails was never an option, even if it had ever occurred to us (which it hadn't).

This season the boat is ours and as new sailors my wife and I like to experiment with different sail configurations under different conditions to see what works for us. We've already discovered what a wonderful tool the traveler is and it's now a regular part of our trimming adjustments.

Saturday with a steady 10 kt wind we sailed with a full jib and the main on the second reef point. We had wanted to go with the first reef point but the one reef line was set up for the second and we weren't motivated to change it.

As we headed up wind and started to heel, I was pleasantly surprised to see we hit the sweet spot for balance. At a 15 degree heel I was able to let go of the wheel for what seemed like a couple of minutes and the wheel hardly moved as we went along. Heeling no longer felt uncomfortable, at least not for me. Now, instead of just thinking about how to power/depower the sails, we'll be also thinking more about balance and how that affects the handling.

Now somewhat related, after anchoring for much of the afternoon, we decided to motor, downwind, to the southeast end of the lake so we could sail back into the sunset for our sunset cruise. With helm balance on my mind, I was surprised at how UN-balanced we were under power, at about 85% of full throttle. If I let go of the wheel we quickly turned to port. Is this normal or should I be concerned? I hadn't noticed it before but then we hadn't motored for so long before.

One source is "prop wash" which is the turbulent flow shed by the propeller blades. This turbulent water will impinge on the rudder and affect the feel and tracking of the helm.