Balance

Oct 3, 2014
261
Marlow-Hunter MH37 Lake City, MN
First a wordy post about how we found balance in the sails this past weekend, finishing with a somewhat related question about balance under power.

On several previous sails, most of which were when our friend owned our current boat, a Hunter 33.5, we'd get to heeling at an uncomfortable angle (for us noobs) but eventually I realized that what made it uncomfortable for me was not the heel angle, but the weather helm. It would feel like I was constantly fighting with the boat, much like a strong dog pulling on a leash. It would want to turn into the wind, while I wanted to go straight. As guests on the boat, adjusting the sails was never an option, even if it had ever occurred to us (which it hadn't).

This season the boat is ours and as new sailors my wife and I like to experiment with different sail configurations under different conditions to see what works for us. We've already discovered what a wonderful tool the traveler is and it's now a regular part of our trimming adjustments.

Saturday with a steady 10 kt wind we sailed with a full jib and the main on the second reef point. We had wanted to go with the first reef point but the one reef line was set up for the second and we weren't motivated to change it.

As we headed up wind and started to heel, I was pleasantly surprised to see we hit the sweet spot for balance. At a 15 degree heel I was able to let go of the wheel for what seemed like a couple of minutes and the wheel hardly moved as we went along. Heeling no longer felt uncomfortable, at least not for me. Now, instead of just thinking about how to power/depower the sails, we'll be also thinking more about balance and how that affects the handling.

Now somewhat related, after anchoring for much of the afternoon, we decided to motor, downwind, to the southeast end of the lake so we could sail back into the sunset for our sunset cruise. With helm balance on my mind, I was surprised at how UN-balanced we were under power, at about 85% of full throttle. If I let go of the wheel we quickly turned to port. Is this normal or should I be concerned? I hadn't noticed it before but then we hadn't motored for so long before.
 
Feb 20, 2011
7,990
Island Packet 35 Tucson, AZ/San Carlos, MX
If I let go of the wheel we quickly turned to port. Is this normal or should I be concerned? I hadn't noticed it before but then we hadn't motored for so long before.
Most likely "prop walk".
Googling that term should offer some insight.
 
Oct 3, 2014
261
Marlow-Hunter MH37 Lake City, MN
Most likely "prop walk".
Googling that term should offer some insight.
I did consider that it could be something to do with that, but I thought prop walk only applied when in reverse?
 
Jul 7, 2004
8,402
Hunter 30T Cheney, KS
I think you might be experiencing 'prop walk' which should be normal under power.
Have you tested your helm balance under full sails in 10kts? I'm surprised that you need a 2nd reef point to find the sweet spot. I'm no expert but maybe it's a matter of adjust the trim to find it under full sail..

edit: jsg beat me to it
 
Feb 20, 2011
7,990
Island Packet 35 Tucson, AZ/San Carlos, MX
An overnight passage from SD to Ensenada MX on a 43 Columbia had me fighting a wayward helm. The owner attributed it to the two-bladed propeller currently installed.

An easy way to check is to idle the motor and go into neutral. As you glide along, does the helm still feel like it wants to go to port?
 
Oct 26, 2008
6,045
Catalina 320 Barnegat, NJ
My boat has an offset propeller shaft so that it is not in line with the rudder. This causes the boat to pull to one side when motoring. What you experience may or may not be normal, but considering that your spade rudder is not likely to have a perfectly balanced flow of water off the prop wash, it wouldn't surprise me that it consistently pulls to one side or the other.
As far as sail balance goes, I'm left wondering why you need to reef your mainsail in just 10 knots of wind. Whether you are talking about true wind speed or apparent wind speed, that just seems pretty light for reefing. You should consider making sure that you have proper trim adjustments for draft depth, twist and draft position, as well as angle of attack (which you are adjusting with your traveler), to achieve balance. You should get a copy of Don's book and charts for reference.
If you still have trouble in light winds, perhaps your sails are too old and far out of shape.
 
Oct 3, 2014
261
Marlow-Hunter MH37 Lake City, MN
Have you tested your helm balance under full sails in 10kts? I'm surprised that you need a 2nd reef point to find the sweet spot. I'm no expert but maybe it's a matter of adjust the trim to find it under full sail..
I'm more than willing to accept the fact that our inexperience is the main cause of poor sail trim. It's quite likely...probable even...that we could find balance in ways other than dropping the main to the second reef point.

We started with rudimentary sail trimming (Are we moving? In the right direct? Great, we're trimmed) and now vary one thing at a time to see how it affects the trim. I haven't touched the outhaul, halyard tension or boom vang yet, and I obviously haven't mastered trimming with the jib sheets or main sheet.

What I really need to do is get Gillette's "Sail Trim Users Guide".
 
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Oct 3, 2014
261
Marlow-Hunter MH37 Lake City, MN
An easy way to check is to idle the motor and go into neutral. As you glide along, does the helm still feel like it wants to go to port?
Excellent idea! I'll do this Saturday.

I'm left wondering why you need to reef your mainsail in just 10 knots of wind.
That was my estimate. Since I didn't know I probably shouldn't have even mentioned it. I did notice that about half the boats out were under full sail, half had a reefed main or jib. I'm told the H33.5 has tall mast so we should consider reefing earlier then others. The main consideration is that the Admiral is comfortable with what we're doing.

You should get a copy of Don's book and charts for reference.
Agreed!

If you still have trouble in light winds, perhaps you sails are too old and far out of shape.
The main is just 3 years old, the jib looks to my highly untrained like it's getting old.
 
Jan 1, 2006
7,040
Slickcraft 26 Sailfish
On my former H356 the boat would do a Crazy Ivan under power if I let go of the wheel. We had a 3 bladed prop. It wasn't all the time. So I ascribed it to a combination of current and wind on the hull and the fact that the rudder lives in the prop wash. If I needed a little rudder to compensate for current and wind, the wash would exaggerate the effect of the rudder. That was my best theory.
A balanced sail plan is a beautiful thing.
 
Oct 26, 2008
6,045
Catalina 320 Barnegat, NJ
Ah ... mainsail should be good! Using all the sail trim controls helps with the balance, for sure!
 
May 12, 2004
1,502
Hunter Cherubini 30 New Port Richey
I did consider that it could be something to do with that, but I thought prop walk only applied when in reverse?
It's more noticeable in reverse. I have a 3-blade RH prop. If I let go of the wheel while motoring forward, she wants to turn to stbd. like a car with a really bad alignment. In reverse, the prop pulls the stern hard to port. Throw in an offset prop like Scott's and you add a whole 'nuther variable to the mix. Now, if you are motorsailing, you might just have to play with sail trim, motor speed, and rudder position to find what works best. Do not motorsail, however, healed over too far as this can cause the oil pickup tube to start sucking air instead of oil and air does not lubricate nearly as well as oil.
 

nav87

.
Nov 4, 2014
1
Hunter 380 Deal, MD
Prop walk is always a factor whenever the prop is being motored. Forward or reverse. The force becomes less of a factor the faster you go (forward or reverse) as the rudder's force increases.
 

ROBT

.
Jul 24, 2012
7
Hunter 45 Deck Salon Mystic, CT
Just one little piece of advice. A perfectly balanced helm may feel more comfortable, but the balance can be affected by wind direction, wind velocity, speed of the boat through the water affecting apparent wind angle, etc., as you are discovering. A little "weather helm" will always tend to drive the boat to "round-up" into the wind and, therefore, unload the sails in an unexpected gust of wind. For safety of the boat and its occupants, there should always be a wee-bit of weather helm in the sail trim.
 

JRacer

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Aug 9, 2011
1,331
Beneteau 310 Cheney KS (Wichita)
You should also school yourself on Mast Rake. That affect the balance considerably. Perhaps Hunter web site has a document specific to your boat on setting up the rig that addresses it. And, as said previously, a little weather helm is not bad. Lee helm is bad.
 
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Jun 1, 2009
17
Hunter 34 Croton on Hudson, NY
Prop walk, while more pronounced in reverse, is normal in forward as well. You mentioned that you haven't touched the outhaul, halyard tension or boom vang yet. Touch them. You will be surprised to learn how much difference flattening the main can make in depowering it. When I first started sailing my 34, I felt the need to reef when the wind got above 11 - 12 knots. Then I learned to flatten the main, and now I feel comfortable at full sail into the mid to high-teens, even single handing.
 
Jul 21, 2014
3
Hunter 28.5 Fort Stevenson
I am surprised that I had to read so many posts before I got to JRacers about mast rake. On my old Hunter 26.5 the RF adjustment was totally extended as far as it could be, resulting in terrible weather helm. Once address proper sail trim was much easier acheived.
 
May 6, 2004
2
Hunter 33.5 Escanaba, Michigan
I've sailed my 33.5 for 24 years. It has a huge mailsail. The boat is over canvassed so reefing early is a must. I know one fellow owner who always set the 2nd reef, never the 1st. The large main means the boat will sail relatively well under main alone (letting the traveler down seems to help with speed). Ride is a little bouncy under main alone in any kind of a chop, but sailing the boat is less work. 2nd reef with headsail is probably a good combination for this boat. The boat needs headsail to track downwind, otherwise it gets squirreley. Don't worry about what other boats are doing, reef the first time you think about doing it. 12 knots is my decision point, wuss that I am, especially if I'm going to carry the headsail. The answer to the question "should I reef?" is always yes. In general, you should never heel more than 20 degrees, nor should steering upwind be a chore.
 
Aug 8, 2016
3
Hunter 40.5 MANCHESTER
In regard to your balance while sailing it is important to note if you are over canvassed. Having a wheel, I have placed port and starboard tape when the helm position results in a rudder angle of 35 degrees. This can only be done when the boat is on the hard and a cardboard "tool" of 35 degrees provides an indications as to where to place the tape. I use green 3M tape on starboard and red on those +/- positions. They are marked at the horizontal positions when the "tool" indicates the +/- 35 degree positions. We use these marks as an indicator of over powering the boat and either reef or dump air to move the tape marks back toward their normal position depending on expected wind and wave conditions. You can usually see a wake coming off the rudder at an excessive angle when overpowered. When we do this by dumping air or reefing we generally get more speed as the rudder "brake" is eliminated. Having a balanced helm in less severe wind and sea states is a trial and error process for each boat and is difficult to achieve due to apparent wind gusts, wind shifts and wave action.

In regard to your heading up when powering, there could be some prop wash but I suspect that if it is an abrupt turn that you have a problem with the rudder. A friend had a severe weather helm under power caused by an unsymmetrical rudder. One side was much flatter than the other and it caused the boat to turn so bad that the helmsman was fatigued in short order. It was remedied by a rebuild of the rudder to the manufacturers airfoil sections. Of course there could be other reasons such as a bent rudder (side to side) or miss-alignment relative to the boat's center-line. Any one of these conditions would greatly exaggerate a round up under power.
 
May 17, 2004
5,032
Beneteau Oceanis 37 Havre de Grace
That was my estimate. Since I didn't know I probably shouldn't have even mentioned it. I did notice that about half the boats out were under full sail, half had a reefed main or jib
Easy way to estimate wind speed in that range - were there whitecaps? Whitecaps form around 12 kts or so, and below that speed most boats should be reasonably balanced under full sail if trimmed appropriately.

As others have said, a little bit of weather helm is actually desirable - it's a little safer and having the rudder deflected a couple of degrees fights leeway.

Under power our boat will pull to starboard from prop wash. The test to try coasting in neutral is a good idea.
 
Mar 13, 2011
175
Islander Freeport 41 Longmont
Both my Hunter 25 and Hunter 28 could be sailed on our inland lake with a completely balanced helm (ie: not touch tiller or wheel). Backstay adjustment was a big part of this and then working the sail controls (traveler, mainsheet and jib) so that we could sail for quite a while with out needing to touch the helm.

I liked to "show off" to my other Catalina friends who could balance their boats due to lack of an adjustable backstay. However, as noted above careful attention must be given to conditions since the lack of a weather helm could lead to problems in sudden gusts or waves.