Bad Windward Performance

[Paul Wash]

Moving the Leads Outboard

Alan definitely a good point on the other controls effect on the bubble in the main. Since adding and tuning those controls since that photo I've noticed a definite difference in managing the bubble.

djamied - all the way back at the railing? That seems far back and really wide - notionally that would create a 20 - 25 degree lead angle wouldn't it? Maybe good for downwind but could it point to weather?

I've been comparing boats with similar specs, deck layout, sail size, mast height, beam, and available hardware. A close match - to overall deck layout (performance is slightly different due to the additional weight and the fixed keel) is a Sonar 23. The sail plan is very similar due to the small blade jib and main sail area.

The jib lead location on a sonar is just slightly outboard of where it is on the 216. The angles are very similar, the 216 looks slightly narrower. Based on the keel charateristics, my guess is the 216 will never point as well, hence widening the slot may make good sense.

My conclustion: Moving the leads outboard about 2" from the current block location will create a nice 12 - 15 degree agle. Additionally, this will avoid interference from the rounding cabin profile as well as avoid having to move the spinnaker tack control line and cleat.

Plus you gotta figure since they used a computer model to capture the 216 design approach, theoretically they had a concept of where the jib leads should be for optimal performance - so I'm gunshy of moving them too far outboard at this point until I get more data.

I'll update everyone after I do this and test...

Paul.

 

[Ray T]

Re: Moving the Leads Outboard

I find this discussion very interesting. I am always looking for ways to increase my boats performance. I would be very reluctant to move my jib leads outboard since I am happy with the way my boat points at present. It's very competitive with the other boats in our fleet that includes a couple of J22s, a Lightning, a Highlander, and another 216. All except the 216 rate faster than me. I have said before I don't believe a small bubble is detrimental to boat speed or pointing ability. I bought new premium Dacron sails last year and find I can adjust the jib until it's almost flat and the same with the main. I just don't feel my boat is going to point any better then it's doing at present. Let us know what works I don't claim to know it all and would not be adverse to changing something for the better. One other thing, I did pull the keel and fair it last fall. I am still wondering if its an improvment

 

[Alan]

Ray, the stock sails that the boat comes with are fine for playing around the lake but if you want to be competitive when racing you need to have a good quality set of sails. The difference in speed and pointing is, as you've discovered, amazing. Faring the keel is another major improvement (don't forget the rudder). Keep this up and you'll be bringing home lots of silver.

 

[Ray T]

Hi Alan, Thanks for the encouragement but I have been racing many years with many sucesses. The thing is I'm a seat of the pants sailor not a scientific one. I don't keep track of where to set the sails according to wind strength. I just seem to do it. I don't have a loos guage I set shroud tension by feel. I guess when I try to explain things to someone I don't come across as being very knowledgable. One thing Iam curious about is how does Paul know what angle he is sailing on a beat? If he has a windex set correctly to 90% and he sails to it 45% on a tack or betters it somewhat I don't believe it's going to get much better. If he is trying to better this I think he is going to slow down and his foils aren't going to be as efficient leading to more leeway. Anyway it sounds like a good discussion to have over a couple of beers. Ray

 

[djamied]

Paul - on the "lump" at the top of the cockpit combing (with sheets run between the upper and lower shrouds) would put them where they are situated on similar-sized keelboats, as well as every dinghy I have sailed. Not to say that that's "right" for the 216, but it seems that it would make the jib and main run fairly parallel while close hauled.

I checked out the photos of the "new 22" (replacement for the 216) on the Hunter website and there seem to be blocks mounted on rails along the cabin roof, forward of the cleats (which appear to be in the same pace as in the 216).

Jamie

Alan definitely a good point on the other controls effect on the bubble in the main. Since adding and tuning those controls since that photo I've noticed a definite difference in managing the bubble.

djamied - all the way back at the railing? That seems far back and really wide - notionally that would create a 20 - 25 degree lead angle wouldn't it? Maybe good for downwind but could it point to weather?

I've been comparing boats with similar specs, deck layout, sail size, mast height, beam, and available hardware. A close match - to overall deck layout (performance is slightly different due to the additional weight and the fixed keel) is a Sonar 23. The sail plan is very similar due to the small blade jib and main sail area.

The jib lead location on a sonar is just slightly outboard of where it is on the 216. The angles are very similar, the 216 looks slightly narrower. Based on the keel charateristics, my guess is the 216 will never point as well, hence widening the slot may make good sense.

My conclustion: Moving the leads outboard about 2" from the current block location will create a nice 12 - 15 degree agle. Additionally, this will avoid interference from the rounding cabin profile as well as avoid having to move the spinnaker tack control line and cleat.

Plus you gotta figure since they used a computer model to capture the 216 design approach, theoretically they had a concept of where the jib leads should be for optimal performance - so I'm gunshy of moving them too far outboard at this point until I get more data.

I'll update everyone after I do this and test...

Paul.

 

[Paul Wash]

Update: The jib lead tracks have been installed. We had a great sail on Saturday. I ended up moving the blocks about 1" outboard for grins. Sea trials in 10 - 12 kts and 1 - 2 foot chop was pretty positive. You can really power up the jib moving the leads forward slightly resulting in a tighter leech and a more cupped foot. We have a race Saturday and will update accordingly.

Ray T: One of the problems we have competing on the Bay is the chop. Depending where the wind is from we deal with 2 - 4' chop any given race - except of course if there is no wind. Our waterline just gets us and we do that annoying bow/stern bob that kills us. Often in these conditions we have to fall off in order to keep the sails powered up and sail an "S" shape up and down the waves.

djamied: Cool let me know if you do it and how it works...

 

[Ray T]

Paul I had wondered about the chop. I raced on the bay for many years. As it is now I have to wory about wind shifts every two minutes and gusts. What do you do about your keel pivoting and pounding the hull?

 

[Paul Wash]

Bottom line it sucks. I'm basically waiting for our keel to fall off. Steve Pettingill told us to wedge it to keep it still. On the bigger days we have fore/aft swing as well as port/starboard swing. Sometimes it gets so crazy it can actually churn the water up in the trunk so it comes up under the cover. Overall a huge performance issue.

We've had the opportunity to sail in protected waters in the area with great wind and wow what a difference.

Oh well what can you do...

Paul.

Paul I had wondered about the chop. I raced on the bay for many years. As it is now I have to wory about wind shifts every two minutes and gusts. What do you do about your keel pivoting and pounding the hull?