Bad Windward Performance

[Paul Wash]

We have owned a 2004 Hunter 216 Hull #221 for 4 years now. We have sailed her hard during each spring, summer and fall each year. This spring we began racing in the offshore 4P region 4 division on the Chesapeake out of Deltaville, VA. Our PHRF rating is 192.

Needless to say, we have done poorly coming in last of the entire fleet in all classes. Our downwind performance is great and we've hit 9.3 kts downwind on several occasions - rounding up soon after - but great speed. However, to weather it’s abysmal. Our tacking angles are 120 - 140 degrees (60 - 70 off the wind). We've tried tailing our competition (Colgate 26s, SR-Max 21s, j/24s, etc) attempting to match their ability to point. It’s a huge difference.

To be honest, I am beginning to question if this is the right boat for what we are trying to do. The easiest explanation is my skill level needs to improve – an explanation I am willing to accept if I know the boat really can perform. Another explanation is the rigging isn’t tuned properly. And yet another explanation is the boat just can’t do it.

Bottom line I need confirmation that something is off or that’s the way it is.

I’ve included a list of modifications/characteristics for reference:
- Added a traveler
- Added a rigid vang, removed the topping lift
- Added a mast wedge to tighten up the mast
- Tuned outer shrouds to 40, inner shrouds to 20 (also tried Hunter’s oem recommendations to 35/15 respectively)
- Replaced the OEM jib with a new jib built to the same spec
- OEM Main is in good shape, just checked by our sail maker this spring
- New bottom paint – sprayed on
- The headstay does sag a little with the spinnaker out – for those unaware the headstay is integrated into the jib furling – so not sure how to tighten it outside of tightening the shrouds
- The mast has little to no aft bend

 

[JoeWhite]

I hear your pain - I had a 1984 Hunter 25.5 for about 6 years. I had made all the modifications you listed above and it does not help. Mine was shoal keel and at 20 knot wind you can not even tack. You can only chicken tack. During races I never came in last but 2nd or 3rd to last. You can not sail upwind or up current. I now have Catalina 36. Try one you will see the difference. You are not doing anything wrong.

 

[Ray T]

It sounds like you need to tune the rig. Attach the main sheet to the end of the boom and crank down until the mast is touching the front of the cutout in the cabin top, this will give you prebend and tighten the fore stay as tight as it's going to get. Adjust the rear shrouds until all the slack is gone and then tighten a couple of more turns making sure the the mast is straight. Tighten the front shrouds until the slack is gone and then another couple of turns. Make sure the mast is straight. I do this by measuring the shrouds so they are even. Some people will tell you to measure the halyard to the chain plate on one side of the boat and then the other. One other thing, mount the base of the mast in the rear hole of the mounting plate. The mast will not stay in the forward position when you release the main sheet but this is OK. as the wind picks up and you tighten the main sheet the mast will go forward again giving you the prebend and flattening the main. If this isn't clear let me know. Sometime I know what I'm talking about but nobody else does.

 

[Paul Wash]

Thanks ray. I feel like I've done this with maybe some minor differences. Just to be clear:

1. I assume you do this with the mainsail raised otherwise you would not be able to invoke the mast bend with the boom and gooseneck alone, correct?
2. Also when you say attach the mainsheet to the end of the boom - I assume you mean in it's normal location at the center boom purchase?

Thanks for the advice I'll let you know if I can get the mast to bend following this approach.

 

[Ray T]

Sorry Paul, I left out some pertinent details. You need the topping lift to work against the main sheet that you attach to the end of the boom. This will force the boom forward. I attached the main sheet to the end of the boom by wrapping a small diameter line around the end of the boom and then attach the main sheet to it. My boat is set up as follows, a soft Vang with boomkicker, topping lift from the top of the mast to a swivel block at the end of the boom and then forward to a two bolt cleat, pass the line through the cleat and put in a stopper knot so you don't lose it ,leave enough clearance to clear the main. I use 1/4" line for this. I don't have a traveler I haven't felt the need for it yet. I race against another 216 that has a traveler and so far I can out point him. I do have a Cunningham adjuster. I use the topping lift to tune the rig and to steady the boom when I flake the sail. I hope this helps you. Let me know how it turns out for you. Ray

 

[Paul Wash]

Thanks Ray - that is clearer. I actually have my main halyard shackled to the outhaul in lieu of the topping lift (when not in use) so I can use that in in place of the topping. I beefed up the outhaul to adjust it on the fly - it leads to the fore part of the boom. I'll raise the boom as high as possible, tightening the halyard and outhaul. Then I will go through the main sheet motions to tighten it down

Notionally, how much bend are you putting in the mast? You wouldn't happen to have a picture so I can gauge would you?

 

[Ray T]

I tried taking a picture but background clutter made the prebend hard to see. If you mount the mast in the last hole on the mounting plate and force the boom forward untill it touches the cutout in the cabin top you cant get any more. you can reach me at lakeracer38@aol.com

 

[Alan]

Paul, I suspect it is a combination of all the things you mentioned. Fortunately you recognize this and almost all of this can be easily corrected.
To start with the rig needs to be tuned for optimal upwind performance. This means getting a tight forestay, proper mast rake and prebend and optimizing the sheeting angle of the 110 jib.
Start with putting in a 2% mast rake. I know that the forestay on the 216 has no adjustable turn buckle. But you can measure the rake and add a pair of stainless tangs to accomplish this. Next tension the cap shrouds to induce 6" of prebend in the mast. The lower shrouds will pull out the prebend when they are tensioned. This should produce a relatively tight forestay with proper mast rake. The last but VERY important thing is to put the turning block for the jib sheet on a small length of track (24" to 30" should be good) mounted on the cabin top. Sheet lead angle is CRUCIAL for proper sail shape. Without this adjustment you will NEVER be able to point well. This allows the leach of the jib to be adjusted properly for pointing or reaching. Moving the lead forward tightens the leach of the jib and increases pointing.

I guarantee these will dramatically improve your upwind performance and pointing.

 

[djamied]

In this vein ... I am also thinking of racing my 2008 H216. I have started to notice that the main seems backwinded by the jib, close hauled in a 12-15 kt breeze. Could it be the location of the jib fairleads/cam cleats on the cuddy roof? Has anyone moved these? (A quick experiment suggested that they may be better about 6-8" aft of the cuddy, mounted on the cockpit combing.)

thanks...Jamie

 

[Paul Wash]

Hey everyone - we had a few revelations and talked to Steve Pettingill as well. Have some test data. I will post once I get home later this evening. Trust me it's going to be interesting...

 

[Paul Wash]

Windward Performance Cracked

Hey everyone, we talked with Hunter and they referred us to Steve Pettingill. I didn't realize who he was - but evidently he is a well known single handed ocean racer as well as an offshore tester for Hunter. Coincidentally, he was at the regatta we were in last weekend representing Hunter and he was able to provide first hand advice.

It so happens he has the first Hunter 216 - one that was actually a fiberglass model. It has the exact same rig as the ACP version, but it is about 500 lbs heavier. He has done a ton of sailing and tuning on his 216. He has a list of modifications a mile long, but there isn’t enough room to convey everything here.

Bottom line he said the 216 will compete. So we followed his advice this weekend and tuned the rig. Setting the upper shrouds to 35 and killing the lower shrouds to hand tightened did the trick. We got great pre-bend effect. Next we added a Cunningham purchase to eliminate the wrinkled luff which has been plaguing us on the windward legs.

THE RESULT: Preliminary data indicates an increased pointing capability from 120 – 140 degrees down to around 100 degrees. We tested in 8 – 12 kts of wind, 1 – 2 foot waves, and a smaller crew. We were making between 5.5 – 6.2 kts to windward in these conditions. I expect with our normal crew we will point better with the added stability. So this is good news. :dance:

The only other immediate modification suggested by Steve is to add jib track and leads to the cabin top. This will help pointing and eliminate the backing on the main from the narrow slot between the jib when the wind picks up.

There are a few things on Steve’s 216 I found intriguing:

- Increased Jib area (a new sail of course) by shortening the tang lead and moving the furling forward – he recommended a purchase on the jib clew to avoid the need for winches
- Beefed up sail arsenal including a code zero for light air which I understand is actually at the masthead
- Holds and hiking straps – some of which I think are part of the racing package
- Eliminated the VARA rudder system and actually mounted a tiller and rudder on the stern – evidently this is huge in responsiveness and feedback

I hope this helps everyone. We’ll be practicing and tuning over the next few weeks. The real test is going to be competing against other boats and seeing how these changes affect our overall performance. Please let me know if you have any questions – as I alluded to earlier there were a million things Steve reviewed with us and not enough space to convey here.

Thanks everyone for their help and feedback. As we received additional data we will be sure to post.

Paul.

 

[Alan]

Paul, I'm real interested even though I don't own a 216. What does "Setting the upper shrouds to 35 and killing the lower shrouds to hand tightened" mean? What rake setting did Steve suggest? ...was it the standard 1% rule or something more radical? The one about the jib tracks was exactly my point in an earlier post. Sheet lead adjustments are mandatory for sail trim control.

 

[Paul Wash]

So Alan to be honest there was no rake discussion. I know you mentioned the tangs but it wasn't a topic of discussion. The helm feels pretty well balanced overall so not sure the rake is out of whack. My understanding of rake is the angle of the spar fore and aft. I need more feedback to determine if there is another setting to tweak...

I am defintiely am going to do the jib tracks b/c thats been a noticeable problem for quite some time.

As far as the shroud tension measurements. The upper shrouds (cap shrouds) on the Loos gauge are set to 35. Hunter suggests 15 on the lowers. Steve said just hand tighten the lowers and they should be roughtly around 8. As soon as I released the lowers from 15 the prebend appeared and the mast bent towards the cabin at the lower portion and bent back at the top. It was great fun. I had my very own bent mast profile that is always illustrated...

 

[Alan]

Paul, thanks for the update. Now I understand the numbers. What you are discovering is the nightmare that I went through years ago trying to find the right combination of adjustments to make the boat perform its best. The generic tuning guide is anything but right about adjustments. Having Steve available as an 'on the scene' mentor must have been great. He certainly is a great resource to tap. Wish I had had that opportunity.
You've discovered some of the tricks to dialing in the boat. If I were you I would note all the settings on the rig and continue to tweak them. This is the procedure that I used to set my boat up but without the mentor which took a good deal longer.
For example, I would increase the rake at this point and see if the performance continues to increase. If it does I would keep going. If not then the limit has been reached. I do this with all my settings to try and approach the best combination I can find. In OD racing the competition is pretty intense and rig tuning guides have been devised for most boats looking for the edge. Sadly Hunter doesn't do anything in this regard.

 

[djamied]

details on jib fairleads

Thanks Paul - this has been very useful!

Did Steve give any details about mounting rails on the cabin roof for the jib fairleads / cleats? To my mind, the cabin roof is *much* further inboard than any other boats I have known, and they should be mounted further outboard - perhaps on the cockpit combing...?

Do you (or anyone) have any insight on this?

Thanks...Jamie

So Alan to be honest there was no rake discussion. I know you mentioned the tangs but it wasn't a topic of discussion. The helm feels pretty well balanced overall so not sure the rake is out of whack. My understanding of rake is the angle of the spar fore and aft. I need more feedback to determine if there is another setting to tweak...

I am defintiely am going to do the jib tracks b/c thats been a noticeable problem for quite some time.

As far as the shroud tension measurements. The upper shrouds (cap shrouds) on the Loos gauge are set to 35. Hunter suggests 15 on the lowers. Steve said just hand tighten the lowers and they should be roughtly around 8. As soon as I released the lowers from 15 the prebend appeared and the mast bent towards the cabin at the lower portion and bent back at the top. It was great fun. I had my very own bent mast profile that is always illustrated...

 

[Alan]

When placing tracks for your genoa cars you need to calculate the correct sheeting angles. In general a good windward sheeting angle will be near 14 or 15 degrees. It has nothing to do with what 'looks' good but what works. The lead angle is determined by the location of the car. Lead angles change according to point of sail and wind strength. You can also gain needed sail power by using deck sweeper sails in place of high clew reachers. Deck sweepers also keep the CE lower keeping heeling force to a minimum.

 

[Paul Wash]

It sounded like Steve had 2 sets of track. One on the cabin top, one further outboard. I'm thinking no more than 18" is needed.

One thing he did was he extended the headstay to the jib tang on the mast (eliminating the 10" lead) and then moved the headstay base forward. This increased the size of the jib. I don't think you could get too much overlap based on the block configuration. But I imagine this increases I & J slightly. An interesting idea I'm tossing around in the back of my head is to do this and eliminate the furling approach and go to a hank on jib with a halyard.

......
Did Steve give any details about mounting rails on the cabin roof for the jib fairleads / cleats? To my mind, the cabin roof is *much* further inboard than any other boats I have known, and they should be mounted further outboard - perhaps on the cockpit combing...?
.....

 

[Paul Wash]

Jib Leads and Track

Alan, et al.:

I am working through the jib lead angles and trying to determine the best location for the track that will provide all around the best pointing capability and ability to maintain speed when flattening the boat when needed. My understanding is the jib sheeting angle should be around 12 - 15 degrees assuming a main sheeting angle around 3 - 5 degrees when going to weather.

Since this thread focuses on windward performance, I will state a few current observations that may provide inside into the proper location of the track for optimal performance. I have attached 3 photos showing the current turning blocks and an older photo of going to weather. Note: the older photo doesn't show good main sheet trim but does give you an idea of the slot. There have also been several improvements not represented in that photo.

Current Observations:

1. When going to weather in heavier air (over 12 kts) the current jib lead angle has a tendency to backwind the main. Especially if the AOA of the boom is adjusted with the traveler or main sheet in order to reduce heeling moment (as in eased).
2. When going to weather in lighter air (~5 kts) trimming the jib sheet tight, the main sheet tight, and pulling the traveler to windward will keep us alive. It’s a stretch and a struggle and we do stall out easily as if the slot is too narrow.

My first inclination is to move the track further outboard around 2 - 3 inches to create a wider slot. Using "reckoning" I'd say the current JSA is about 8 - 10 degrees and it feels too narrow. However, I'd appreciate any input you all have based on the attached photos. Additionally, please provide any other comments on placement that you can think of.

Thanks!
Paul.

 

[djamied]

Paul et al.,

My thoughts exactly about the jib backwinding the main in a bit of wind. You can see the luff of the mainsail is luffing (when without the jib it would not be) when the jib is sheeted in tight. (even with the traveller midships). I do think things should improve with the leads outboard. My first post was sent after I held the sheet by hand at various places; the best looking slot was with the "lead" just aft of the stays, mounted on the cockpit railing. (This would put them where they would be in almost every other small boat I have sailed).

 

[Alan]

It might be important to point out something that might be a bit overlooked here. When beating the traveler location is not nearly as important as the boom location. Typically a traveler that is centered leaves the boom a little to leeward helping to create luffing at the leading edge of the main. To center the boom will almost always require that the traveler is positioned to windward of centerline. Of course, the amount of draft and its location is also an important component of this. As the breeze strengths the draft must be decreased and the draft position moved forward. This is where sail controls like cunningham, outhaul and vang become vitally important. Without them these adjustments become impossible and proper sail shape unobtainable. This could contribute to incorrectly blaming a tightly sheeted jib for causing a bubble in the leading edge of the main (backwinding)