Last fall the boat lift operator was somewhat embarassed when he stumbled and spilled a full cup of coffee all over the starboard side deck of my '84 Catalina 27. After hauling and powerwashing the hull he apologetically washed the deck too. They are generally very friendly and very helpful. As it turns out, the coffee spill may have been a lucky break after all. I've had a minor leak of sorts on the starboard side. The starboard shelf has been damp after heavy rains on occasion (but never visible dripping). The problem never seemed serious enough to worry about. The rubrail on the starboard side is caulked from below, and although the PO claimed there were no leaks, I knew what I was buying. I believe there is a slight bow leak too (more dampness and more caulk). So what about the coffee? A few weeks ago during my puttering I noticed brown drips marks in 4 or 5 spots coming down the inside hull above the starboard shelf. Warm weather and rains must have liquified what coffee the washing had missed. An inspection of the caulking under the rubrail shows no obvious breach. I am thinking that water is getting under the rubrail from above and creeping fore and aft, then coming in at various points through the hull/deck joint. The question then is, how bad would a leak need to be before you took off the rubrail and started prying apart the hull/deck joint to investigate and reseal the whole thing? It seems like overkill, but on the other hand, I don't like the idea of a line of caulk on the top gap of the rubrail too.
Bad (coffee) break?
- Thread starter T37 Phil
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Good question
As an inverterate tinkerer who was determined to get to the source of my leaks, I considered removing the rubrail and getting into the joints. I was wisely advised not to do it. First, the rubrail does not have great "memory" and will never go back on right. Second, prying apart the hull will only lead to more trouble. An easier solution is to recaulk the topside of the rubrail. Use caulk remover and carefully with a knife remove and clean with solvent. Re-caulk using LifeSeal clear, which doesn't show defects like white does. Lay down a small bead and follow with your pinky. Don't remove thin film excess. Works wonders, you'll be delighted. And you don't have to do the lower side!
As an inverterate tinkerer who was determined to get to the source of my leaks, I considered removing the rubrail and getting into the joints. I was wisely advised not to do it. First, the rubrail does not have great "memory" and will never go back on right. Second, prying apart the hull will only lead to more trouble. An easier solution is to recaulk the topside of the rubrail. Use caulk remover and carefully with a knife remove and clean with solvent. Re-caulk using LifeSeal clear, which doesn't show defects like white does. Lay down a small bead and follow with your pinky. Don't remove thin film excess. Works wonders, you'll be delighted. And you don't have to do the lower side!
As a short term fix you can try Capt Tolleys
Thats Cap't Tolleys Creeping Crack Cure. Available at West Marine etc etc. This stuff is just short of a miracle leak repair for fine cracks that are hard to get at. Its kind of like a very viscous glue/liquid. When it comes out it has the viscocity & looks like milk and dries clear. You won't even notice it I had some water weeping through with my chainplates and was going to recaulk but didn't have time, so as a temporary fix I used some Cap't Tolleys. Well its stopped it for the whole year and I never recaulked & its been years since then. All I do is every once in a while I just drip a little more on top and if there are any fine cracks this stuff will fill them
Thats Cap't Tolleys Creeping Crack Cure. Available at West Marine etc etc. This stuff is just short of a miracle leak repair for fine cracks that are hard to get at. Its kind of like a very viscous glue/liquid. When it comes out it has the viscocity & looks like milk and dries clear. You won't even notice it I had some water weeping through with my chainplates and was going to recaulk but didn't have time, so as a temporary fix I used some Cap't Tolleys. Well its stopped it for the whole year and I never recaulked & its been years since then. All I do is every once in a while I just drip a little more on top and if there are any fine cracks this stuff will fill them
Just a thought...
If your Hull to Deck joint is the problem and the leak is very minor I'd try the Capt-junk mentioned previously..taking down the Rub Rail is alot of headaches and dont try to put the old one back..go with a replacement..now,your into some $$$$$. My question is; are you sure it's coming from the Joint and not from a deck fitting? If it's a leaky deck fitting you need to fix it before it does any core damage..or you will really have some problems to deal with. I'd check the deck above the leaky area for fittings and if any are there I'd go on and rebed them will SilkoFlex ..sound the area to ensure the core is good and get back to sailing.Also,ask around to other Catalina owners to see if this is a normal problem with these boats..you may find someone who has successfully tackled this problem before that way. Good Luck & Fair Winds>>>> David
If your Hull to Deck joint is the problem and the leak is very minor I'd try the Capt-junk mentioned previously..taking down the Rub Rail is alot of headaches and dont try to put the old one back..go with a replacement..now,your into some $$$$$. My question is; are you sure it's coming from the Joint and not from a deck fitting? If it's a leaky deck fitting you need to fix it before it does any core damage..or you will really have some problems to deal with. I'd check the deck above the leaky area for fittings and if any are there I'd go on and rebed them will SilkoFlex ..sound the area to ensure the core is good and get back to sailing.Also,ask around to other Catalina owners to see if this is a normal problem with these boats..you may find someone who has successfully tackled this problem before that way. Good Luck & Fair Winds>>>> David
Captn Tolley's is good stuff
and it works. It is well worth a try. Also, we assume you've checked and (re)bedded your ports, stanchions and your chainplates. Another place sometimes overlooked are the handholds (teak loops). I rebedded ours recently when faced with a leak I couldn't trace. Finally, check the traveller track base, too.
and it works. It is well worth a try. Also, we assume you've checked and (re)bedded your ports, stanchions and your chainplates. Another place sometimes overlooked are the handholds (teak loops). I rebedded ours recently when faced with a leak I couldn't trace. Finally, check the traveller track base, too.
Bietzpadlin was 21 years old and suffering
from serious neglect when I bought her. The wooden "rub rail" was cracked and worn and not redeemable so I pulled it off and fed it to the stove. Underneath I found the hull/deck joint bedded with putty and fastened with "pop-rivets". The inside was glassed but in many places where wire had been run, the wire was wrapped with brown paper and bridged with the glass. The navigation lights were this way and water penetrated from the light housing into the inside. I spent many hours grinding the deck joint fair and glassing it out of existence. The efforts that are needed to eliminate ALL of the leaks on a boat require the dedication of a monk but it is worth while. I know that there are many that say I could have been sailing for those years that were devoted to making the boat exactly what I wanted but they would have also been spent wishing that this or that was better, different, more convenient, or nicer. When the question is posted "What changes do you plan for this year"? I can think of anything I would change.
from serious neglect when I bought her. The wooden "rub rail" was cracked and worn and not redeemable so I pulled it off and fed it to the stove. Underneath I found the hull/deck joint bedded with putty and fastened with "pop-rivets". The inside was glassed but in many places where wire had been run, the wire was wrapped with brown paper and bridged with the glass. The navigation lights were this way and water penetrated from the light housing into the inside. I spent many hours grinding the deck joint fair and glassing it out of existence. The efforts that are needed to eliminate ALL of the leaks on a boat require the dedication of a monk but it is worth while. I know that there are many that say I could have been sailing for those years that were devoted to making the boat exactly what I wanted but they would have also been spent wishing that this or that was better, different, more convenient, or nicer. When the question is posted "What changes do you plan for this year"? I can think of anything I would change.
What is important
How important is it to you to stop the leak. Ross pretty much said it will take a lot. I went through a similar problem with my Irwin 32. I considered pulling off the toe rail covering the joint, but finally decided on a baggie instead. I located where the ingress occurred and was able to place a baggie under the spot to collect the water. That was much easier and worked quite well for 10 years. Using sealants to stop the leak at it's source is a good idea IF you can locate that spot - no easy chore. One method, which did not work for me, was to seal up the cabin as air tight as poosible using duct tape and plastic around hatches and other potential air leak sources, and then use a shop vac to pump air into your cabin so air pressure inside was higher than outside, while you use saopy water along all the possible leak spots looking for bubbles.
How important is it to you to stop the leak. Ross pretty much said it will take a lot. I went through a similar problem with my Irwin 32. I considered pulling off the toe rail covering the joint, but finally decided on a baggie instead. I located where the ingress occurred and was able to place a baggie under the spot to collect the water. That was much easier and worked quite well for 10 years. Using sealants to stop the leak at it's source is a good idea IF you can locate that spot - no easy chore. One method, which did not work for me, was to seal up the cabin as air tight as poosible using duct tape and plastic around hatches and other potential air leak sources, and then use a shop vac to pump air into your cabin so air pressure inside was higher than outside, while you use saopy water along all the possible leak spots looking for bubbles.
Possibilities
Lot's of good information. A visual inspection of ports and hardware doesn't show any obvious places where water would get in. I've never seen wetness anywhere but on the shelf above the settee, usually after a storm when I wasn't on the boat. The deck isn't spongy anywhere (yet). The multiple streaks on the hull (maybe I'll get a picture this weekend) lead me to believe that water is going fore and aft along the hull deck joint. There has never been any sign of water anywhere else (except the aforementioned bow locker moisture). Brown streaks from wood hadn't occured to me and makes me want to look at it more closely. If coffee had drained into the gap on top of the rubrail, it might still be there. Since the rail is caulked from below, added water from the top would get in and flow under the joint, up and over into the cabin. Water flows uphill when it has to, just imagine the trap on a sink. I also believe the joint is bolted, not screwed, so the configuration is not exactly as in Maine Sail's photo. I'll try to get a photo of that too. I still don't have a clear picture of what the hull/deck on my boat looks like. Does anyone know how Catalina did the hull/deck joint on the 27 in 1984?
Lot's of good information. A visual inspection of ports and hardware doesn't show any obvious places where water would get in. I've never seen wetness anywhere but on the shelf above the settee, usually after a storm when I wasn't on the boat. The deck isn't spongy anywhere (yet). The multiple streaks on the hull (maybe I'll get a picture this weekend) lead me to believe that water is going fore and aft along the hull deck joint. There has never been any sign of water anywhere else (except the aforementioned bow locker moisture). Brown streaks from wood hadn't occured to me and makes me want to look at it more closely. If coffee had drained into the gap on top of the rubrail, it might still be there. Since the rail is caulked from below, added water from the top would get in and flow under the joint, up and over into the cabin. Water flows uphill when it has to, just imagine the trap on a sink. I also believe the joint is bolted, not screwed, so the configuration is not exactly as in Maine Sail's photo. I'll try to get a photo of that too. I still don't have a clear picture of what the hull/deck on my boat looks like. Does anyone know how Catalina did the hull/deck joint on the 27 in 1984?
The hull deck joints..
on Catalina's have remained relatively unchanged for a long long time and the deck jojnt in the picture is very similar to yours. The inner hull or inside of the deck hull joint protrudes higher than where the top edge of the rub rail ends. Since water is self leveling, meaning it will not push higher than it's self unless under pressure, means that unless any water getting in behind the rub rail, from the top, would have to be under pressurized to "climb" over the hull and into the boat. Water sitting on top of a rub rail and soaking in behind it is most likely tracking down the rub rail until it finds a way to drip out of the bottom. The cabin sides on most early Catalina's, around the window openings, is not sealed and is raw plywood so if any water got under the window frame it would not drip inside the boat but rather migrate through the wood core until it found an "out". Stanchions are the number one source of deck leaks due to the extreme forces exerted upon them like a lever. Basically the only way a rub rail on a Catalina will leak is if you dip the rail while sailing, through the screw holes which would be very minor or if the water is under pressure. Because the hull goes up about two inches higher than the top of the rub rail it is very unlikely this is the cause of your leak. Been there done it!
on Catalina's have remained relatively unchanged for a long long time and the deck jojnt in the picture is very similar to yours. The inner hull or inside of the deck hull joint protrudes higher than where the top edge of the rub rail ends. Since water is self leveling, meaning it will not push higher than it's self unless under pressure, means that unless any water getting in behind the rub rail, from the top, would have to be under pressurized to "climb" over the hull and into the boat. Water sitting on top of a rub rail and soaking in behind it is most likely tracking down the rub rail until it finds a way to drip out of the bottom. The cabin sides on most early Catalina's, around the window openings, is not sealed and is raw plywood so if any water got under the window frame it would not drip inside the boat but rather migrate through the wood core until it found an "out". Stanchions are the number one source of deck leaks due to the extreme forces exerted upon them like a lever. Basically the only way a rub rail on a Catalina will leak is if you dip the rail while sailing, through the screw holes which would be very minor or if the water is under pressure. Because the hull goes up about two inches higher than the top of the rub rail it is very unlikely this is the cause of your leak. Been there done it!
There must be a dozen different ways
to make the hull/deck joint. You can have a shoe box joint, where the deck fits over the hull like the lid on a shoebox. You can have an in turned flange on the hull and an out turned flange on the deck. You can have a raised in turned flange on hull and a raised out turned flange on the deck forming a bulwark. It seems like every designer had a better idea but in each case finishing the join was a problem so they capped it with a "toe rail" or a "rub rail". Pacific Seacraft uses raised flanges sets them in 3M 5200 and bolts them with 3/8 SS bolts and covers the join with an aluminum extrusion that is functional. No one takes the time or the money to make the join as solid as the rest of the boat. This I can understand. No one would be able afford such a boat. Some builders have made a greater effort than others and after twenty years or more it starts to show. I think that once the joint starts to leak there will be very limited "simple" repairs that will be durable. Take heart however many wooden boats develop rot in some very awkward places and repair involves partially dismantling the boat.
to make the hull/deck joint. You can have a shoe box joint, where the deck fits over the hull like the lid on a shoebox. You can have an in turned flange on the hull and an out turned flange on the deck. You can have a raised in turned flange on hull and a raised out turned flange on the deck forming a bulwark. It seems like every designer had a better idea but in each case finishing the join was a problem so they capped it with a "toe rail" or a "rub rail". Pacific Seacraft uses raised flanges sets them in 3M 5200 and bolts them with 3/8 SS bolts and covers the join with an aluminum extrusion that is functional. No one takes the time or the money to make the join as solid as the rest of the boat. This I can understand. No one would be able afford such a boat. Some builders have made a greater effort than others and after twenty years or more it starts to show. I think that once the joint starts to leak there will be very limited "simple" repairs that will be durable. Take heart however many wooden boats develop rot in some very awkward places and repair involves partially dismantling the boat.
Stanchion or condensation
I'd look close at the stanchion. The shelf is inboard of the rub rail. If it were coming down the hull then the shelf would only be wet on the edge(maybe). Run a hose over the base of the stanchion in that area of the deck. I had one leak even though it was tight to the deck. Caulk under the stanchion plate fixed. If it's not that then it may be condensation forming on the underside of the deck. This is common. The bow is likely condensation forming on the underside of the deck as well. Get a warmer at West Marine.
I'd look close at the stanchion. The shelf is inboard of the rub rail. If it were coming down the hull then the shelf would only be wet on the edge(maybe). Run a hose over the base of the stanchion in that area of the deck. I had one leak even though it was tight to the deck. Caulk under the stanchion plate fixed. If it's not that then it may be condensation forming on the underside of the deck. This is common. The bow is likely condensation forming on the underside of the deck as well. Get a warmer at West Marine.
I agree with maine sail.
Almost all Catalinas (other than the newer bigger boats like the C440) is a shoebox design hull to deck and the chance of the coffee running down - then up is very slim. There probably are no leaks at that interface and more likely somewhere else (stanchions and jib car the most likely). Brown is the color of plywood and in the early days Catalina used marine plywood on the decks (as did a vast majority of boat manufacturers in those days). Now Catalina only uses end grain balsa which is probably considered much better by most out there Another quick test is get some red water based dye and drop a cup full over the same spot that the coffee was spilled. If there really is a leak this dye will find it and you can trace it that way
Almost all Catalinas (other than the newer bigger boats like the C440) is a shoebox design hull to deck and the chance of the coffee running down - then up is very slim. There probably are no leaks at that interface and more likely somewhere else (stanchions and jib car the most likely). Brown is the color of plywood and in the early days Catalina used marine plywood on the decks (as did a vast majority of boat manufacturers in those days). Now Catalina only uses end grain balsa which is probably considered much better by most out there Another quick test is get some red water based dye and drop a cup full over the same spot that the coffee was spilled. If there really is a leak this dye will find it and you can trace it that way
Phil, Just saw the pictures.
I will bet anything that is not coffee. That looks like deck leaks. If it makes you feel any better, its more common that you'd ever believe on older boats. I dare say many many more older boats have leaks like this than not. My old 1980 Watkins had it pretty bad too, but the boat was still very solid Really the only thing you can to stop it is rebed the deck hardware that are leaking (stanchions and such) . I don't care if you have a Hinckley, after 20 years their deck hardware leaks too. The difference is if you own a Hinckley then you can pay the $$ for someone to rebed the deck hardware
I will bet anything that is not coffee. That looks like deck leaks. If it makes you feel any better, its more common that you'd ever believe on older boats. I dare say many many more older boats have leaks like this than not. My old 1980 Watkins had it pretty bad too, but the boat was still very solid Really the only thing you can to stop it is rebed the deck hardware that are leaking (stanchions and such) . I don't care if you have a Hinckley, after 20 years their deck hardware leaks too. The difference is if you own a Hinckley then you can pay the $$ for someone to rebed the deck hardware
WRONG WRONG WRONG
As Mainsail said, it is more than likely what you are seeing is a brown stain from the deck core coming apart. I find it hard to believe than no one else caught the caulked from the bottom part. This is as wrong as you can be. Anything caulked from underneath, or inside the boat,is probably worse than no caulk at all. It seals nothing, and only makes a trap to hold any leaking inside the deck, and in the core. For example, say a stanchion is leaking. You caulk it from the inside and the leak is apparently stopped. In reality, you have only stopped from coming inside the boat. The stanchion is still leaking. Now instead of the water coming through into the boat, the water is collecting in the core. And we all know what happens next. So, whatever it takes, fix it right, fix it on the outside and on top, not bottom.
As Mainsail said, it is more than likely what you are seeing is a brown stain from the deck core coming apart. I find it hard to believe than no one else caught the caulked from the bottom part. This is as wrong as you can be. Anything caulked from underneath, or inside the boat,is probably worse than no caulk at all. It seals nothing, and only makes a trap to hold any leaking inside the deck, and in the core. For example, say a stanchion is leaking. You caulk it from the inside and the leak is apparently stopped. In reality, you have only stopped from coming inside the boat. The stanchion is still leaking. Now instead of the water coming through into the boat, the water is collecting in the core. And we all know what happens next. So, whatever it takes, fix it right, fix it on the outside and on top, not bottom.
Phil, avoid denial,
get a grip, and take a deep breath, and read what the guys have been telling you. It is most likely, after over 30 years of Catalina building experience, NOT a hull to deck joint issue. If it was, we would have known about it and told you. It appears that you have some severe thru deck re bedding issues to deal with. If the curtains were open in your photo, I'm guessing the things outside would kinda line up with the stains inside, like stanchions and chainplates. Rebed your stanchions and chainplates.
get a grip, and take a deep breath, and read what the guys have been telling you. It is most likely, after over 30 years of Catalina building experience, NOT a hull to deck joint issue. If it was, we would have known about it and told you. It appears that you have some severe thru deck re bedding issues to deal with. If the curtains were open in your photo, I'm guessing the things outside would kinda line up with the stains inside, like stanchions and chainplates. Rebed your stanchions and chainplates.
Stu, is right
I do agree it is not a problem. Use the boats and do not worry about it. So you get a little bit of water in the core. So it gets wets and rots a little. SO WHAT! You get what you pay for.
I do agree it is not a problem. Use the boats and do not worry about it. So you get a little bit of water in the core. So it gets wets and rots a little. SO WHAT! You get what you pay for.
Tom S is right....
looks like water is running in from the and starting decking rotting the wood. That is way it looks brown like coffee. I would buy a moisture meter, wait for a good rain and start looking for the leak. I would rebed all the deck hardware. You should also keep the boat cover until your done the hardware rebedding. You might want to end seal all of the holes if you are retired and have lots of time. Drill out the core around the hole with a bent nail. Place a piece of tape under the hole and if it with expoy, and then redrill the hole and remount the hardware. Tom S and I disagree about coring material. I think foam doesn't rot as fast as wood, but as he points out it is not as stiff. Anyway is you seal up the boat is should dry out over time and be ok. I think you got it in time but it is close.
looks like water is running in from the and starting decking rotting the wood. That is way it looks brown like coffee. I would buy a moisture meter, wait for a good rain and start looking for the leak. I would rebed all the deck hardware. You should also keep the boat cover until your done the hardware rebedding. You might want to end seal all of the holes if you are retired and have lots of time. Drill out the core around the hole with a bent nail. Place a piece of tape under the hole and if it with expoy, and then redrill the hole and remount the hardware. Tom S and I disagree about coring material. I think foam doesn't rot as fast as wood, but as he points out it is not as stiff. Anyway is you seal up the boat is should dry out over time and be ok. I think you got it in time but it is close.
gud naight
Wasn't there a thread recently on the fine qualities of the sailing community? I have to admit, it's like every other dysfunctional family I've ever come across. "Leaks are the bane of many 27s and water finds its way below through the hull-and-deck joint, the hatches, the chainplates and deck fittings." - from the catalina27.org site
Wasn't there a thread recently on the fine qualities of the sailing community? I have to admit, it's like every other dysfunctional family I've ever come across. "Leaks are the bane of many 27s and water finds its way below through the hull-and-deck joint, the hatches, the chainplates and deck fittings." - from the catalina27.org site
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