Backup chart plotter

Stu Jackson · Oct 18, 2011

Adults? Hardly...

There are literally tons of posts on different forums about iPads and charting software.

I suggest you look around at these sites for their electronics forums, which delve more deeply into just your subject.

Try http://www.sailnet.com/forums/electronics/ and http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f121/ for starters. So much of the issues have to do with your interests and equipment and budget. There are, as you mentioned, free software packages.

I purchased a Sea Clear disc with all the charts for like $20 or $30. If you do a search here on this forum for Sea Clear with my name you'll find the post I made. Here's one of three: http://forums.catalina.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?t=124995&highlight=Sea+Clear

Many folks are what i call "slaves behind the wheel" and thus think they need something at the helm. I spend most of my time in front of the wheel and do just fine with a Garmin GPSMap 76Cx, but i do understand your reluctance to deal with Garmin for your trip. There are many other options out there. Point being, don't limit yourself to a big chartplotter helm mounted.

Also Google "Babel" which lets you transfer waypoints between different navigation software.

Tim R. · Oct 18, 2011

I think you may need to purchase the ipad with the 3g chip in order to get the gps. You do not need to activate it though.

I have had an ipad I and II and personally I do not like them and feel they have a very limited use on a boat compared to a laptop running Windows.

Pros and cons:

ipad cannot connect to existing equipment - NMEA devices, AIS, GPS, instruments, etc
ipad is horrible for creating waypoints and routes. Finger is no match for a mouse
ipad cannot play or record DVDs
ipad requires dedicated computer(read laptop) for backup(it can be done over the air but not as good)
ipad is not rugedized like some laptops are
ipad Battery cannot be swapped out by the average user
ipad recovery can be very difficult if you need to reload OS. We have had 3 fail in the last 2 weeks.
ipad has great battery life - 10 hours
Go through TSA with ease

Laptop can connect to virtually any device on board
Play movies via DVD played and connect to your TV
Great for creating routes and waypoints with a mouse
Battery can be changed out if necessary
Short battery life - 4 hours
System can be restored easily
Will interface with others more easily. File sharing
Bigger display
More applications
Individual components can be upgraded or replaced
Can be heavy or bulky
Allow touch typing(ipad would need an optional keyboard)

For serious navigation/boat integration a laptop is the best choice. The ipad is more of a toy.

Your ipad will come with Wifi so you can connect to a hotspot and download anything. If you iphone is a mobile hotspot, even better.

sailaway78 · Oct 18, 2011

Have you considered

One of the smaller, fixed mount Garmins, with all the US coastal waters built in. No chips to buy, easy to see and use. One of my biggest problems with a laptop and/or the ipads etc, is they are almost impossible to see in bright sunlight. IMHO a chartplotter, at the nav station isn't of much help when you need quick and accurate info. Also, there can be a problem with their ability to withstand the elements in the cockpit. One of the regular chart plotters, can be permanently installed, is easy to see, and is made for the environment in the cockpit. Also you can have the advantage of depth on the same instrument. While I am big on the Garmin products, others have the same features and competitive costs. I have a Garmin 498, with an old Lawerance hand held as a back up. Have travelled from Long Island Sound to the Mexican border, and never needed/wanted anything else.

Tim R. · Oct 18, 2011

Bill1565 said:
Wow Tim you don't mince words. Mary and I each have laptops. We put them away when sailing. I was thinking of the Ipad as a replacement for the 76map at about the price of a handheld plus data. Helm station chart plotter back up easier handling than my 17 inch laptop and much easier to get control of than Mary's 15 incher.

My comments are based on having the backup GPS at the nav station. I would not mount an ipad or laptop anywhere outside where a quick rain shower or wave could damage it.

Personally, I have a fixed mount Garmin at the helm and nav station. Both have built in NA charts but also can share charts between them for when I buy chips for outside the US. The laptop is a backup at the nav station and also used for route planning. It also works for my AIS control and SSB email(when I finally hook it up)

Sumner · Oct 18, 2011

We navagated down Florida'sSW coast from Port Charlotte. Down routes like.....

... inside between Naples and Marco Island and on to Goodland. In and out of the 10,000 Islands and the Everglades, over to Marathon. Over and into ....

.....Boot Key Harbor for the first time in the dark and up the ICW to south of Miami.

All of that with ease with a computer....

...running SeaClear II and a handheld Garmin Map 76 with on maps in it.

http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/macgregor-navigation/Compter-Nav-index.html

The Garmin was always connected to the computer/chartplotter running SeaClear and the day's route waypoints were sent to the handheld and were sometimes changed and resent underway in less than a minute. The screen for the computer...

... can be positioned to be seen from the cockpit and if we were somewhere real tricky I would watch that and keep us right on the money by telling Ruth, but with the waypoints in the handheld that wasn't really needed as you could zoom in and stay right on course even in places....

...like from Marco Island to Goodland.

We are using the same equipment on the Endeavour. We also have a backup Map 76 and two laptops that have SeaClear and NOAA charts on them that could be used at any time and also have large paper charts.

I'd recommend either using the laptop tied to a handheld in the cockpit as backup or a notebook tied the same way. You would need to get a USB to serial converter, which is no big deal. The computer I made has a number of serial ports on it.

The nice thing about this system is the SeaClear is free and can be loaded on as many computers as you like for backup and the same with the NOAA charts.

We bought a larger 16 inch monitor for the computer in the cabin and I'm going to try using the old 9 inch one at the helm when conditions allow along with the handheld that will always be there. I bought a VGA splitter to spit the video in the cabin and have a long VGA cable that will go to the helm and stay there. Both monitors run on 12 volts and both use about 10 watts. The computer uses about 12-14 watts. If you bought a notebook that runs on 12 volts that would be more efficient than a laptop, but if you motor much that isn't going to matter as the laptop could run on a DC to DC converter down below all day.

I like the SeaClear and can create a route as fast as you can click on where you want to go. We also have Open CPN which is free and that is an option also for someone who doesn't like SeaClear. The last thing you need is a $35 GPS puck. Also this setup can send position to a VHF with DSC and you can also get an AIS receiver and use it with the SeaClear. We might do that down the road.

Good luck and it sounds like a great trip and one we hope to do when we are accomplished enough to do it,

Sum

Our Endeavour 37

Our Trips to Utah, Idaho, Canada, Florida

Our MacGregor S Pages

Mac-Venture Links

Sumner · Oct 18, 2011

Bill1565 said:
... Didn't know I could download non garmin charts. will look into it.

I hope I didn't mislead you. You can't download NOAA charts into the Garmin, just the waypoints from the route you setup using the charts with SeaClear.

I'd recommend playing with the SeaClear, doesn't cost anything and if I can help in anyway PM me or post. It is a little confusing at first, but once you spend a few hours with it you can setup routes really fast. I have all of our routes saved from our trip and can load any of them in a few seconds and the transfer to the handheld is just a couple clicks and it is done.

I also spent time putting in inland lakes where we sail, like Priest Lake in Idaho and Lake Powell. You can download free government topo maps..

http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/macgregor-navigation/Navigation Aids-Index.html

... for anyplace in the US and in about 10 minutes convert them so that SeaClear can use them just like the NOAA charts...

Good luck,

Sum

Our Endeavour 37

Our Trips to Utah, Idaho, Canada, Florida

Our MacGregor S Pages

Mac-Venture Links

Maine Sail · Oct 18, 2011

Tim R. said:
I think you may need to purchase the ipad with the 3g chip in order to get the gps. You do not need to activate it though.

I have had an ipad I and II and personally I do not like them and feel they have a very limited use on a boat compared to a laptop running Windows.

Pros and cons:

ipad cannot connect to existing equipment - NMEA devices, AIS, GPS, instruments, etc
ipad is horrible for creating waypoints and routes. Finger is no match for a mouse
ipad cannot play or record DVDs
ipad requires dedicated computer(read laptop) for backup(it can be done over the air but not as good)
ipad is not rugedized like some laptops are
ipad Battery cannot be swapped out by the average user
ipad recovery can be very difficult if you need to reload OS. We have had 3 fail in the last 2 weeks.
ipad has great battery life - 10 hours
Go through TSA with ease

Laptop can connect to virtually any device on board
Play movies via DVD played and connect to your TV
Great for creating routes and waypoints with a mouse
Battery can be changed out if necessary
Short battery life - 4 hours
System can be restored easily
Will interface with others more easily. File sharing
Bigger display
More applications
Individual components can be upgraded or replaced
Can be heavy or bulky
Allow touch typing(ipad would need an optional keyboard)

For serious navigation/boat integration a laptop is the best choice. The ipad is more of a toy.

Your ipad will come with Wifi so you can connect to a hotspot and download anything. If you iphone is a mobile hotspot, even better.

We have an iPad II and would never even consider it, even as a back up. Nice toy though and great for watching Netflix on but other than that.... Ditto what Tim said..

Ed Schenck · Oct 18, 2011

Lake Erie to Tampa was so simple. The Garmin never failed us. We did have the laptop as backup with freebies.

Tim R. · Oct 19, 2011

For topos, I use BackCountry Navigator on my Droid. Very cheap SW that lets you navigate with topos anywhere in the US.

https://market.android.com/details?...ebsite&utm_medium=Link&utm_campaign=FrontPage

Ed Schenck · Oct 19, 2011

Should have mentioned "paper" too. Not exactly dead reckoning though. Just an occasional transfer of the coordinates to the chart. We did have a couple of handhelds for that purpose. Pretty useless in the ICW but we were offshore and knowing where the inlets are is comforting.

Bill Roosa · Oct 19, 2011

A "backup!" to a chart plotter.
You guys are amazing. I was under the impression the chart plotter was a backup to paper maps. I'm all for having several sources of nav info but I'm thinking the spirit of that was that the sources would be from different types of equipment.
For the record there are lots of ocean race boats that start out with 8-10 GPSes and come home with none, YMMV. So perhaps you ARE on the right track with a backup chart plotter.
I'm thinking piloting (eyes, brain and paper map), DR (same map, clock and math), GPS (electronics) and a sextant (eyes and brain, math, and some books) with the sextant being pretty useless on the ICW and only marginal in the bay due to all the nav aids.

Tim R. · Oct 19, 2011

Bill Roosa said:
A "backup!" to a chart plotter.
You guys are amazing. I was under the impression the chart plotter was a backup to paper maps. I'm all for having several sources of nav info but I'm thinking the spirit of that was that the sources would be from different types of equipment.
For the record there are lots of ocean race boats that start out with 8-10 GPSes and come home with none, YMMV. So perhaps you ARE on the right track with a backup chart plotter.
I'm thinking piloting (eyes, brain and paper map), DR (same map, clock and math), GPS (electronics) and a sextant (eyes and brain, math, and some books) with the sextant being pretty useless on the ICW and only marginal in the bay due to all the nav aids.

This is called progress Bill. A chartplotter is now the primary tool for navigation. It will provide much better accuracy. Having paper charts and knowing how to use them is still essential. The cost of chartplotters is such that you can easily afford a spare.

No one should discount the use of eyes, ears, compass and sounder for verification of either method of navigation.

If you primarily chart by paper alone and then use a charplotter when that fails, then you are definitely in the minority. In fact, you may even be considered unique.

Winkfish · Oct 19, 2011

Bill1565 said:
my Garmin 76 map only has charts for SW Fl. Additional charts are $116+ . per "reigon" and they are old data. That's why I am looking to replace the unit before we go to Chesapeake bay.

Bill, I've got a GPS map 76 with a Bluechart G2 (US Inland Lakes) which covers the whole country. I use it for fishing the marsh here in S. Louisiana. The price, I believe, is only $99.00. Don't know how much detail you need, or how much detail is offered for the area you want, but I like it.

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