Backing an Ericson 35 Mk II

[tgrace]

Greetings,
I bought this Ericson and have only been out on her 6 times.... Absolutely love the boat but get a tad up tight when taking her out of the slip... I have a 60% track record of a perfect exit but the other 40% leaves a bit to be desired and in fact have ended up sideways in the fairway. The actual departure from the slip is easy but the process of going from reverse to forward is where the boat does not respond to rudder direction. I have read that prior to leaving reverse (or neutral) that the rudder should be turned to the direction of desired forward travel and then place in gear and give a couple of short bursts of thrust to make the rudder bite..... These sound like good ideas but was hoping that I might here from some experienced folks. I do know that having the prop so far forward of the rudder produces some unique challenges....

Tim

 

[Joe A.]

Tim, I like you, just bought an Ericson (26) but won't be taking it out for another month or so. I'm very interested to find out what more experienced sailers tell you. I have an additional challenge of mediteranian style docking which means I have to approach my dock backwards and perfectly straight between two posts. Joe.

 

[tgrace]

Hey Joe,
I don't envy your situation either but am sure you will figure it out... Do you have an inboard? I have been doing some reading and from what I read one needs to turn the helm hard over just prior to going out of reverse or neutral while backing.... I don't check the forum as often as I should so please excuse my tardiness....
Tim

 

[sailordas]

Tim, like many sailboats, it will takes a bit to gain steerage. Usually, with my ericson 30, about a half boat length. Since every docking/mooring situation is different (currents, wind direction, etc.), practice makes perfect. Your E will naturally want to "walk" to port when backing, even once you gain steerage. I counter this with a about a half-turn of my wheel to starboard (about one-third over). Go easy on the throttle. Most people over do it with power. My first year with my E, I spent the better part of a morning on a calm day, I did nothing but practice docking which helped build confidence very quickly. (sorry, I'm not suggesting you're new at this, but even if this is a new vessel, it's a good step.)

Enjoy. It's a great boat.
DAS

 

[tgrace]

DAS,
Thanks much for the reply and what you say makes perfect sense and is in line from what I have read.... Hopefully will get out this weekend and give her a try.... I admit my last embarrassing episode was due to excessive speed in reverse (not that I was speeding but a tad too fast) which made it very difficult to regain control when shifting to forward.
No offense taken since I am stepping up from a Cal 2-27 which I mastered the slip exit but also the prop was much closer to the rudder as well as 6k pounds lighter.
Thanks again DAS.....
Tim

 

[tgrace]

Finally figured it out.........

After numerous attempts of being perpendicular in the fairway and over powering the situation I decided just prior to putting her in reverse to push the stern in the direction to where I wanted to head.... Of course this was just a little push but it worked great.... So if anyone else was having a backing issue this works well...... I must say this 35 is a tank in the fairway but with a lot of practice the babe is under control.......

 

[Ekessler]

The rudder on my E-35 is very sensitive under light power. So I've found that a little gas and light touch at the wheel does the trick. But I'd still hate to be the boat or pilings on either side of slip k13 at Herrington Harbour South...

 

[tgrace]

Ditto for G16 at the John Wayne Marina..... But I appreciate your suggestion. I have tried just about all power and steerage with no avail..... Practice makes perfect as all have said and one must enter the realm of embarrassment and finger pointing before perfection is achieved.....

 

[sailordave]

I am also an experienced sailor with 25 or so years experience racing and cruising a Martin 29. However, last fall when we sold our Martin and got into our Ericson 35 our joy quickly turned to dismay as we realized that getting in and out of our slip reduced us to rank amateurs at best. We have a fairly large fairway behind our slip (thank goodness) and not only have we managed to get perpendicular but we've been able to turn the boat completely around and end up in the wrong direction. (we have a current running thru our marina). Last weekend at another marina whilst exiting our slip after a wonderful long weekend with our club, we were able to ricochet off of two boats before finally (with red faces) able to clear the marina. (Very slow speed and crew were able to keep us from doing anything but just touching the other boats). Not wishing other sailors harm, but I am taking great solace in realizing that it isn't just me that is having problems with this model of boat. I agree that having the prop so far from the rudder definitely requires a completely different mindset in slow speed handling - particularly going from reverse to forward. At this moment, I have no idea where the boat is going to go when I go from reverse to forward. I also am planning many hours of practice so that I will be better prepared and not have to suffer the embarrassment of handling this boat like a complete novice.

David

 

[zeehag]

they dont back up!!!!! not straight anyway--mine pulls hard to left-- so my stern flies to port every time i try ... so i quit .. but they DO spin on their keel-- a pivot-- helps to get ye out of any troubles -- i loved doing that---is fun! if in trouble, crank hard over to which ever way ye wanna go and goose the throttle and spin her... she will spin in her own length. but they do not back up in any kindly manner....can you walk her out to the almost end of slip then , intermittently give light throttle and slide out that way??

mine has a yanmar--i havent the problem of reverse to forward sluggishness of which you speak. i have found her to be fast and responsive and easy and fast to sail--but unable to reverse--is a true sailboat.

 

[tgrace]

Hey.... Great hearing your stories.. well maybe not great but at least I do not feel like an idiot..... What I did finally do was turn the rudder to port (3/4 turn) with the trans in neutral and while on the dock give the stern of Griffin a a push to port, hop on and put in reverse at idle for a couple of seconds.... She slides out beautifully and then while in neutral turn the wheel hard starboard, put gear in forward and goose the throttle for a second until she is making way and pointed in the correct direction of travel and then give her some more poop and away we go under control..... It was a difficult learning experience and am glad to have that behind me.......
And yes she will turn on a dime with practice..... Patience is the name of the game as I have learned.....
Thanks for all the stories.... Love the boat but am thinking of putting an extension on the prop shaft the next time I pull her but then again that might take all the fun out of backing......
Tim

 

[zeehag]

i was advised to add some percent to rudder forward section and more to rudder after section for better handling--may be less pricey than prop shaft elongation which might give more cavitation to rudder performance... mine steers to 2:00 on the clock when i motor---i believe from the cavitation from prop....doesnt do that under sail....

 

[tgrace]

Never heard of that option (adding percent to rudder forward).... Will have to look into that. How does one approach doing that? That option sounds better than a prop shaft extension. The only reason I had mentioned that was I saw a fellow boater in the yard that had done that BUT had not tested it in the water.... Would appreciate any feedback..
Tim

 

[zeehag]

the individuals told me the rudder needs a certain percent added afore and another certain percent abaft the rudder post. i forget the numbers-- but i can see how that would aid in reducing weather helm.....i dont know if they skegged the rudder or not-- would seem to be the right thing to do under the circumstances, as would make the rudder safer and less likely to be destroye3d in a grounding.....

 

[tgrace]

Thanks zeehag..... I will look into this sometime this winter.....
Good winds,

Tim

 

[zeehag]

Thanks zeehag..... I will look into this sometime this winter.....
Good winds,

Tim

you are most welcome--i would love to see more of these boats long range sailing-- they have sweet lines and they fly-- i chickened out and i am gonna cruise my formosa--- but i have a slight problem with my paws, so i had to choose between fighting a sloop with excellent maneuverability and balancing sails and a heavy keel--

 

[sailordave]

I am thinking that the location of the engine (amidships or conventional) has a lot to do with how the boat handles at slow speeds. My 35 has the engine amidships which means that there is a substantial space between the propeller and the rudder. I have zero steerage until I can get some forward way on which means that in tight quarters the boat is very clumsy. My previous boat had the prop close to the rudder so a quick shot of power and the boat would spin on its keel. The ericson has not exhibited that tendency at all. A number of you have indicated that you can spin the ericson on it's keel - I'm wondering if your engine is in the conventional position? Also, I am replacing the venerable A4 (with slipping clutch) with a new Beta Marine 25 which may give me the sudden burst of power (without the slipping clutch) that I need.

 

[tgrace]

I have more slack steerage friends than I thought.... After my last episode being sideways in the fairway I found this article which helped me out as well as "almost" and I mean almost turn on the keel with lots of forward and reverse maneuvers... This may help you sailordave or it may be old info... http://www.seaskills.com/files/SeaSkillsDockingDIYMagazine.pdf
I have a universal m20 power plant that is located under the salon seating and do not think she could be any more forward than possible but I will say she is easy to get to for maintenance so it is a catch22 I guess.... Let me know if the article was of any help....

 

[zeehag]

I am thinking that the location of the engine (amidships or conventional) has a lot to do with how the boat handles at slow speeds. My 35 has the engine amidships which means that there is a substantial space between the propeller and the rudder. I have zero steerage until I can get some forward way on which means that in tight quarters the boat is very clumsy. My previous boat had the prop close to the rudder so a quick shot of power and the boat would spin on its keel. The ericson has not exhibited that tendency at all. A number of you have indicated that you can spin the ericson on it's keel - I'm wondering if your engine is in the conventional position? Also, I am replacing the venerable A4 (with slipping clutch) with a new Beta Marine 25 which may give me the sudden burst of power (without the slipping clutch) that I need.

i think is fin/spade set up --isnt only one of the fin/spade i have been able to spin in its own length. it doesnt take much practice--just practice in a wide open space so you dont get into trouble. is a gas. the engine in all the ones i have done this with have been in different positions and different engine types. is human skill rather than boat shape-- once the pivot point of the boat is found and understood, then magic happens--is fun to be able to do this-- just takes practice and more practice--like sailing backwards--- takes a certain trim and practice.lots of it. if i can do this with a full keeled attached rudder formosa i will let you know--- is actually a good thing to know how to do. fun to learn also.:dance:

your slipping clutch could well be the reason for you not being able to get off the line on time, as it were. i think you will be able to spin yours in her length as we are able to do , also. your only difference is slipping clutch-- those dont let the car off the start well on race day---is a good thing to fix.

 

[sailordave]

On my previous boat I used the 'prop wash' effect greatly to my advantage and could spin the boat on her axis without any difficulty. So when I got this new boat and found that I could no longer depend on that it was like I was starting all over again in the learning curve. I have since pulled the old Atomic 4 gas and it's inherent clutch problems and am awaiting the arrival of my new Beta Marine diesel. I may have to reprop with a larger prop so that may help create the effect you and I both deem desirable. I am attaching a photo of my boat to give you an idea of some of the design issues that I am contending with. The prop is angled downward and at such a distance forward that the prop wash in effect almost misses the rudder. Secondly, the prop shaft is angled and does not go directly amidship but angles about 10 or so degrees from center. However, I do agree, that with practice, I will get much better at slow speed handling but with the current configuration, I'm sure I will never get the same handling that I had before.

David

PS I tried to attach a couple of photos to illustrate my point but couldn't figure out how to do that.