Back to School?

[tom]

no comparison to aviation

I am a pilot and there is no comparison to boating. It would be suicide to get into a plane and try to fly without instruction. Check this board and you will find that most people are self taught sailors. Also the potential harm from boats is much less than from planes. Sure you can envision some nightmare scenario but most people start out in a small boat and work their way up to larger boats. Most mistakes made in small boats are not life threatening. A great deal of the pleasure from boating is exploration and developing skills. A government demanding education and testing will greatly reduce pleasure and not add much safety. Boating is a safe sport!!!!! I believe that it is safer than walking. I am not joking more people are killed while walking than while sailing. To save lives let's require a course on walking before allowing people to cross the street. People should be tested yearly and put into wheelchairs when their agility test scores start to drop. I shudder to think that older people are allowed to walk and even to shower without proper supervision. Imagine what could happen if a person without the proper agility tried to cross a busy street!!!! And children!!!!Some young children without proper headgear and special training are allowed to walk close to sharp edged tables!!!! I shudder to think of poorly prepared undertrained toddlers trying to run in a park!!!!! How can we survive without government to control this reckless behavior. I move that no one be allowed to walk on a public street without proper training and an annual review. Allowing a toddler to walk without body armour and helmet should be considered a crime!!!!!!!!!

 

[Tom S.]

FYI. It looks like 27 states have on-line courses

Check it out here http://www.boat-ed.com/#statesWhich begs the question, "How do we know its YOU that took the course and not a freind doing it for you"I am much more a libertarian than anything on this issue, but that does not mean I am against training. There are some people that have no clue of what to do on the water. In NY State I know people that just walk up to the NY City boat show, plunk down hundreds of thousands of dollars and get a huge motorboat with no prior experience. (I have seen it done). Yeah the dealer will offer to teach them, but more often than not its ten minutes at the dock after the boat is commissioned. Plus most people like that don't have the patience to "really" learn what it takes to go boating. Thank god that is more rare than otherwise, but it does happen.I say fine on water infractions and HEAVILY fine more serious ones. Thats a way to condition the stupid behavior.You may ask, who is going to pay for this? Well the local boating authorities are already out there and we are already paying for them. The revenue from the fines can help "directly" augment the costs. And once stupid and dangerous behavior starts getting seriously fines then you'll start seeing better behavior.Personally, as a private citizen, I would like to be able to video tape any illegal, stupid and dangerous behavior and send it into the state authorities where they can go after the people and fine them in absentia, and repeat offenders lose their priviledge to use the boat for a period of time. (I bet some jet skiers and motorboats causing 4 foot wakes and damages might start thinking different when they get a summons in the mail !!)ps. As for motorcycle helmets (re:Seat Belts), why should the government say I should or shouldn't wear one. Its my body and my life or death. (remember - Libertarian) The only ones that should be concerned whether I wear a helmet or not is my family, not the government. And that is BULL that it costs the people money vis-a-vis medical bills, because the truth is if I ever get into an accident without a helmet I will most likely just die. But if I get into a an accident and I wear my helmet and survive I will most likely be crippled for life and possibly be a MUCH bigger burden to society. Quick deaths are much cheaper.

 

[DMJ]

Tom

Well, that did create some response. My premise is that licensure without review is worthless. Also, more people walk than boat, so I would expect it to be numerically more dangerous to walk. But I would point out that the inherent danger to others from you walking is practically nonexistant. Hardly a fair comparison to boating, flying or driving.I agree that boating is reasonably safe. Perhaps more so for those who do it in tranquil warm waters. I'd rather go out the Golden Gate (which I do) with someone who's skills are solid. Frankly I don't care if they are self taught or well schooled. But, if you accept that a license is required, than the standards need to be met.And, I don't know how long ago you learned to fly, but when I did, there was no requirement for a night check-out or instruction to get your license, yet the license did not restrict night-time flying. Many people died before the FAA decided that self-taught in that area was not a good idea. I did a night checck-ride, even though it was not required.If someone starts out in small boats, and in reasonably tender conditions I think that self taught is great. The discussion here has been about people who buy large boats and just jump on and go. Perhaps they even take some of their friends with them. Perhaps they have no idea how to handle a man-overborad situation. Perhaps the water is cold, like around here. Maybe the poor sucker has a life-jacket on, Afterall, most of the sailors I see on the bay have them on their passengers and themselves....NOT!Buried somewhere in my post was the concept of regulating judgement. Aviation probably does the best job at this. And, when they figure out how to do it better, they generally change the rules to reflect the thinking. I maintain that boating, driving, etc. could benefit from all of this thinking.I'm going for a walk.Dan Jonas (S/V Feije II)

 

[Ed]

Schooling and licensing are good.

We need to remember - driving, boating or sailing are not protected rights. They're not mentioned at all in the Constitution or in the Decleration of Independence. The fact that you're supposed to register your car, powerboat or sailboat before it can be used in any state or on Federal lands/waters is proof that they aren't protected rights. Here's more proof - if you violate the state's laws, your privilege to use your car or boat can be taken away from you. However, no one (not even the state or the Feds) can take away your protected rights.States (and the Coast Guard) have the authority to keep unregistered boats from being operated in their waters. They can (and some do) ensure that a properly registered boat is operated by someone with a license. To obtain a license, the applicant must usually pass a written and/or a hands-on test. Passing the test(s) only proves the applicant has demonstrated they know enough operate a boat. It doesn't prove they will always use good judgement, but at least they'll know the basic "rules of the road". That's still far better than having boaters, who don't know the basic "rules of the road", out there threatening the rest of us.~ Happy sails to you ~ _/) ~

 

[Fred Ficarra]

WHEW!

*O. nm

 

[Howard B]

Watch Out

People that handle boats, should have at least basic knowledge of boating and right of way. Unfortunately I was diving in Palm Beach Florida a couple of weeks ago, and a sailboat from Mass. ran over my dive buoy. he did not know of the regulations regarding diving in florida.

 

[Ted]

Not Mandatory!!!!!!!

I took a class, so did my wife and both my kids ages 14 and 16. Having said that, I do not need to have more tax money be wasted in government regulation when most of us figure out the right thing to do on our own. If you get in a wreck are liable and don't show proof of education, then I say remove your nuts and take the max fine. Otherwise the Fed can get the hell out of my life please.

 

[Ross]

Motor Boaters

Anyone with a motor boat and a key thinks they're a sailor. Right of way? Courtesy? Yes. At least an online awareness course like DMV does for the driving challenged.

 

[Ciaran]

Sailing/Powerboating is a privilege

Sailing or power boating just like driving your car is a privilege and not a right. A privilege is something that you can lose and in some cases people should lose that privilege. What would it be like if people did not have to complete a driving test before they went out on the highway? Cars have brakes that can stop you realatively quickly and air bags in the event that they don't. Boats on the other hand have neither of these amenities, yet some states let anyone some as young as 12 years old take a boat out on the water. I am all in favor of safe boating tests, anything that can make our sport safer has to be a good thing.

 

[Dana Smith]

Zing Zing

Good thread, it reminds me of an old saying. 'A liberal is a conservative who has not been robbed yet'.Good points being made here but remember, ultimately your safety comes down to you and your abilities. Regards----Dana

 

[Tom Lamons]

Class room.

With reguard to the article about Boating Safety Classes. I am a Boating Safety Instructor for the state of Virginia. I has been my experience that on Smith Mountain Lake, boating safety classes have made a BIG difference in the rate of boating accidents on the lake.I think the basic boating safety class should be taken voluntary by all boaters. However, I don't think on the water training has a place in the basic level.

 

[Dr. Thagg]

LIGHT THE LAMP OR CURSE THE DARKNESS

DO WE HAVE PREQUSITE COURSES BEFORE PEOPLE CAN HAVE BABIES? BECOME PARENTS? DO YOU THINK IT MIGHT HELP IF WE DID? DO YOU THINK IT WOULD HELP TO TEACH & LICENSE PILOTS OF AIRPLANES BEFORE THEY FLY?SAME ARGUMENT HERE ABOUT BOATERS. THERE WILL ALWAYS BE FOOLS BEHIND THE WHEEL OF CARS. DRUNK PILOTS AND EGO FREAKS DRIVING BOATS... AS SURELY AS THERE WILL ALWAYS BE DULL NORMALS IN GOVERNMENT.  IF WE TEACH RESPONSIBILITY, MODEL APPROPRIATE BEHAVIOR AND TEACH REQUIRED SAFETY & SKILLS,AS WELL AS ENFORCMENT OF THE RULES OF PUBLIC SAFETY, WE'LL GET MORE COMPLIANCE AND SAFER STREETS, AIRWAYS, AND BAYS.IF WE DON'T, WE GET WHAT WE DESERVE.

 

[Lee]

Recreational Offensive Weaponry as the Cure

Guys, guys, guys,There is a simple and yet hitherto unmentioned resolution for the problems of stupid on the water - Recreational Offensive Weaponry (ROW)! Simply mount a suitable mini surface-surface missile launcher on the fore deck (check this month's edition of "Weaponry Weekender" for really cool V-Berth mounted systems that deploy through the forward hatch), install an economical targeting system and viola! You have an extremely effective deterrent for blatant displays of boating stupidity within your effective range of fire. Nothing quells an idiot more than him (or her) seeing that nice white trail arching directly towards the vessel that stupid is occupying - trust me! An intelligent sailor can install a suitable system in his or her sailboat in a weekend and be ready for action in short order. There are several choices for targeting designs for the missiles to include audible, heat-seeking and motion-tracking versions. In fact, most missile bodies now only contain the propellant and the weaponry charge and the targeting heads are interchangeable!Just remember that you can be held responsible for unwarranted discharge of a ROW and justification for such discharge must be clear and recognizable by at least 1 other person in case the local water patrol questions a weapons release - at least that's the way it is in S/W Illinois. Carlyle Lake sailors still recount the demise of the St. Barnaby's School of Taxidermy Annual Summer Cook-Out, held at Eldon Hazlet State Park back in '98 when a heat-seeking ROW missile inadvertently went astray, diverted by the large fire in the BBQ pit, started by an over-zealous fire marshal applying waaaay to much starter fluid. The park rangers that initially arrived at the scene were horrified at the apparent carnage of so many water fowl and fish laying about, not to mention the hundreds of pieces of half-charred chicken surrounding the spot where the grills used to be. However, they were quickly relived when they learned that the school's display had been placed beside the grills and that the prototype missile had mistaken the grills for the intended target. More laws? Nope - a few well-timed and well aimed weapons should do the trick...

 

[Fred Hensley]

make boating more relaxing

Taught boating classes for several years in Florida. Probably didn't reduce accident rate but did help people to be more confident of their abilities and become more comfortable while on the water. Piloting classes were probably more useful to those already skilled in boat handling.

 

[Ted]

One more thought

I noticed that the survey results as of now are 50/50 Q1/2 vs Q3/4. All you cases that want performance tests on the water (Q1/2), would you agree if you weren't grandfathered? Would you still agree when you figured out the line would be like Cedar Point amusement park, 4-5 hour wait for the ride? Would you still agree if the cost was $75 per test (or more). Again, I feel the voluntary course offering is great and fine the hell out of violators to change behavior!

 

[Dr. Thagg]

LIGHT THE LAMP OR CURSE THE DARKNES.

DO WE HAVE PREQUSITE COURSES BEFORE PEOPLE CAN HAVE BABIES? BECOME PARENTS? DO YOU THINK IT MIGHT HELP IF WE DID? DO YOU THINK IT WOULD HELP TO TEACH & LICENSE PILOTS OF AIRPLANES BEFORE THEY FLY?SAME ARGUMENT HERE ABOUT BOATERS. THERE WILL ALWAYS BE FOOLS BEHIND THE WHEEL OF CARS. DRUNK PILOTS AND EGO FREAKS DRIVING BOATS... AS SURELY AS THERE WILL ALWAYS BE DULL NORMALS IN GOVERNMENT.  BUT,IF WE TEACH RESPONSIBILITY, MODEL APPROPRIATE BEHAVIOR AND TEACH REQUIRED SAFETY SKILLS,AS WELL AS ENFORCMENT OF THE RULES OF PUBLIC SAFETY, WE'LL GET MORE COMPLIANCE AND SAFER STREETS, AIRWAYS, AND BAYS.IF WE DON'T, WE GET WHAT WE DESERVE.

 

[Steve Weinstein]

Anybody can walk into a boat store, plunk

down their cash and walk out with keys to a boat. Nowhere in that transaction does the issue come up where the new owner is even asked whether he or she knows the difference between the pointy end or the other end.I think it' more prevalent within the power boating industry but I've seen plenty of folks out there in sailboats that are not only a danger to others on the water but also a danger to themselves.I'm not sure whether mandadory licensing is the answer but some kind of mandatory classroom and practical knowledge would go a long way towards making the waters safer to all of us. Nobody screams when we go for our automobile license. Some sort of minimal licensing for boating demonstrating at least rules of the road and basic navigation and safety would go a long way. Granted you can't be taught common sense or curtesy but you can teach rudimentary knowledge.

 

[Bill]

Crash

I was fishing a while back, with many other boats in a unoffical cut/channel, the real channel went down the other side of the sand bar. We had just repositioned for our new drift and were rebaiting, getting ready to drop the lines over when I looked up and saw a 24' SeaRay walk-around bearing down on us on plane, nose to nose. At the last second the driver looked up, layed it over and slamed his stern into the bow of our boat. No one hurt, he got a nice hole in the stern of his boat. His wife and grandaughter were on the bow, no PDF.Question: what do you think your going to teach this guy in boating class, the class that you want to make all of us sit thru, YOU SHOULD LOOK WHERE YOU ARE DRIVING THE BOAT, YOU SHOULDN'T TRY TO KILL YOUR FAMILY AND OTHERS, daaaa. If your this challenged granted you shouldn't be driving a boat, car, bicycle or possibly even walking but a boating DL isn't fixing it. RESPONSIBILITY & COMMONSENSE

 

[tom]

Freedom!!! We should have the right to do

anything until we give the government the right to regulate that activity. governments should derive their power by the consent of the governed. Governments tend to grab power away from people. That is why freedom is so easily lost. There are always good reasons to take away freedom. Almost no mechanism exists to give freedom back once it's lost. Right now you are probably breaking some law or regulation. Most states even have laws to make sure you correctly make love to your wife. There are so many laws governing every aspect of our lives that it's safe to assume that something is illegal. The sad part is that they aren't even required to tell us what the laws are. It's our responsibility to hire a lawyer to tell us if something is legal. Governments should be required to publish a citizens handbook that details in plain language the laws that govern us. In Tennessee it was once illegal for a couple to have one or both of their heads below the dashboard. In San Antonio it is illegal to carry a lock blade knife!!! Which is the safest type of knife to use. Apparently some gangs were using lock blade knives in fights so the city decided to deny honest citizens the use of safer knives for legitimate reasons such as hunting. They already had laws against stabbing people so why the new laws against knives??? We already have a lot of laws on boat operations. Why new laws???

 

[Dr. Thagg]

DEAR GOOD FOR A CHUCKLE :{

there comes a time when a society gets so constricted by laws , as you seem to think we are now. > That isn't because there are too many laws. Its because there are too many people so self-centered and narcissistic, so self absorbed that they NEED controlling!Voluntary obedience to the rule of law IS NOT WORKING. Have you looked at the number of folks we have behind bars? Do you watch the media?> we need laws, rules and enforcement, for the greatest good for the greatest number of citizens in group life. I've lived in India Thailand and Cambodia. Now you should see THAT anarchy!/lawlessness. you'll be glad for a few honest policeman and decent laws after that experience.