Back to School?

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Dec 2, 2003
4,245
- - Seabeck WA
And speaking of stupid and Jet Skis

Every cruiser I ever met has a Jet Ski fantasy. Mine involves a 30.06 with a scope, a sight picture at 300 yards, and a fire ball.
 
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Pierre Catala

Absolutely

I see way too many boaters who (at least seem to) have no concepts of the rules to be observed or what to do to avoid getting into problems.
 
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Bill

You can't teach commonsense

In New jersey they require a boating DL for jet skis but not for boats or yatch. Kind of like needing a DL to drive a motorcycle but not a tractor trailer truck. With logic like that the question becomes Who should be tested the jet skiers or the politicians. Stupidity on a jet ski usually is a self correcting issue. I have sat throught the boating courses for insurance rate reduction reasons and its is scary. The bulk of the people walked out with not much more of a clue than when they walked in. If you don't have the commonsense to ask people, read books, learn, and be responsible for your boat and crew, forcing the entire boating population to sit thru some goofy courses in hopes of legislating commonsense won't work. DL or no DL for boating dose't matter, you will still have a given % of senseless idiots. A boating DL is just one more tax and one or thing to take away for reasons we haven't even thought of yet. I can say that I have serious questions as to whether the marine police know the rules, I know many of the ones I have encountered didn't. The whole idea opens a can of worms which you won't be able to close. I vote for the marine police to hand out stupidy tickets, the more tickets you get the higher the amount. But first please educate the police.
 
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Frank Schueler

Did it stop the nuts from driving cars?

I would support training and a license if it would reduce insurance cost. Let the nuts pay for their stupidity
 
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Bill Coxe

The CT approach makes the most sense to me, but again, it is a matter of enforcement. Most enforcement on the Thames consists of keeping boats out of the way of submarines, as though that might be a contest. I have seen a police boat on the Mystic River pull away from a dock at full power with canoes and other small craft totally ignored, just as I have been passed by someone going 90 in a 50 mph zone with a trooper on the median. More enforcement means fewer violations in the long run. Bill Coxe, o28, Kukulcán, New London, CT
 
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Jim Quibell

OK Fred - but only if you come for a visit -

Bronte Harbour is on the northwest shore of Lake Ontario. We are across the lake from Rochester. Our former quaint little fishing village has now been incorporated into the town of Oakville, Ontario. We have a great yacht club - often called the friendliest little club on the lake - and a great website - bhyc.on.ca Cheers,
 
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Mark

Commonsense

Yes that is the word. It is supprising just how many people down here get a certificate to operate a power boat but remain totaly useless. "But" by the same token there is a whole bunch of engineers, doctors, Vets etc etc etc etc who despite their wonderfull minds are hopeless when it comes to practical thinking. I have often wondered when universities are going to offer a "degree" in "Commonsense".
 
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Jake

Not only Jet Skiers

Did you check out the number of SailboatOwners that don't know anchoring fundamentals? Maybe they just all tie up in fancy marinas. Jet ski's aren't a problem that I've run into on the Chesapeake Bay, but other sailor's lacking safe boating practices are a problem. Most people I know have learned boating by experience and they are exceptional. I don't think 8 hours in a classroom will help many people. I just hope their learning curve on the water doesn't cause injury to them or anyone else.
 
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David Guthridge

Basic course

My father was an instructor in the USPS many years ago and I learned Chapman's cover to cover and have still done some bonehead things. I'm the one who went sailing last summer without my engine (Being repaired) and had to be towed in. I realy got a thorough lashing from many of you and deserved it. But I have had many other incidents when I knew what to do and did it and all is well. I have a friend who purchased a small cruiser two years ago and I asked him if it was a pitch dark night and you were out in the boat and saw a red and green light on a boat, what would that mean? He didn't know. That's dangerous. David
 
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Mark Wieber

One Vote for boating Licenses

Lots of good points here. Several mentions of Government bureacracy and problems with enforcement. Unfortunatly, we can not just lean on 'natural selection' here. The various sizes and types of watercraft make the contests uneven. I am willing to pay a few tickets for mistakes, or dumb manuvers, in the hopes of raising the bar. Big fines for Darwin Award hopefulls (caught without a certificate) might help finance enforecement. Sad that we have the need to legislate behavior we should have learned in Kindergarden:(:(
 
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Dale I

Education reduces ignorance... No curing Stupidity

I don't believe that more intrusive government control will ever solve more problems than it creates.....and all of the education and regulation in the world will NEVER eliminate downright stupid behavior.
 
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Mike

Always a good for a chuckle

This topic has always provided strong (and entertaining!) opinions on both sides. IMHO, everyone on this site is right: boater registration laws are an expensive, bureaucratic, wasteful, useful, necessary and potentially lifesaving effort. As much as I deplore the idea that government exists to babysit for otherwise intelligent people, I think we all agree that because of the growing number of boaters, the previous status quo (i.e., relying on the good citizenship of all to act safely and sanely) just wasn't cutting it. For me, if the mandatory education rules prevent only 10% of new boaters from becoming the dangerous chuckleheads we all know and hate, they are worth it.
 
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Jim Smith

Education, experiance, and enforcement

Many good points have been raised. The need to “encourage” or mandate education through structured classes/licenses as well as the need to then gain actual hands on experience (as in my case with the specifics of sailing) using what you learned. All very important. The area that seems to me to have been lightly discussed is actual enforcement. While some can argue the bureaucracy of government and others can point to specifics of enforcement officials who don’t know or follow the laws that they are supposed to enforce, IMHO, by and large, enforcement officials do a great job. The problem is that there are so few of them on the water that the average boater or jet Skier has no need to worry about learning or following the navigational rules because there is a very small chance that they will ever be stopped and held accountable. To solve that we would need more enforcement on the water, but where would the money come from? Would you be willing to voluntarily donate $50 or $100 or $500 a year to beef up the enforcement efforts in the more crowded boating areas? Would you advocate a mandatory fee of $50 or $100 paid at registration time? We can talk about the need for education (voluntary or mandatory) till the cows come home, it will be meaningless until we more stringently enforce the existing laws and navigational rules, teaching those that are minor offenders and punishing those that are downright careless and dangerous. Happy New Year! -Jim- s/v Forever
 
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HomerS

Alcohol the cause and solution to all problems:)

As Homer Simpson would say. A case in point. I drove up to the marina last weekend, followed closely by another car. I look over and the 2 guys are drinking beer whilst driving - nice. When I get out of my car they are hooting and laughing it up, clearly impaired. They offer me a brew and say they have plenty. Which, by the size of their cooler, they did. They then walked to their boat, I went home. A drivers license/training didn't stop them from drink driving, the same nautical set-up would not stop them from drink boating. What can you do? If I say something I'm messing around with their 'good' time. It's certainly a tough issue. I think a practical test of some sort is needed. Not just a written test. It's simply too easy to memorize this or that procedure but not really know what it means or how to use that function in the real world. Either way tough enforcement would help but will never weed out all the idiots, drunks, and simply clueless. Just my nickels worth, damned inflation! Probably caused by all those pesky boating reg cost....;-)
 
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tom

Give up more freedom???

There is always a good reason to give up our freedom!!!! Freedom is a very dangerous thing. People should never be allowed to do anything unless a committee appointed by experts give their approval. Look at the success of our government at eliminating waste and mistakes within their own organisation. With all of our traffic laws we have eliminated car accidents and can do the same with boats. Seriously free people usually act in their own best interest. Taking away freedom rarely solves any problem.
 
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Jim A

Tom, I'm with you

It should be the law of the jungle and that is it. Might makes right and nothing else! The bigger boat always have the right of way! The guy with the most money can buy his way out of anything! I like your way of thinking! You know what I really hate, drunk driving and seat belt laws!
 
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tom

hey Jim don't put words in my post

I didn't say anything about it being alright to boat drunk or bigger boats ruling. My point that you missed is that I believe in FREEDOM. I also believe that making a law against something doesn't usually work to change behavior. Examples are drugs, murder ,speeding almost anything that you can think of that there is a law against still happens. In some cases the laws make things worse. Drugs for instance. Anti-drug laws have made drugs very profitable and encouraged crime. If drugs were legalised the profits would mostly disappear. Young people would see druggies sitting around stoned and dirty and want nothing to do with drugs. In a few years drug use would mostly disappear except for people with serious mental health problems. Our prisons would be less full and we'd save billions of dollars.(maybe trillions). Freedom works believe that most of your fellow humans will do the right thing most of the time!!!! Voluntary education is great and enlightened boaters always seek knowledge. Freedom means that we choose to be educated. Laws mean we are forced kicking and screaming to do something we don't want to do. Love Freedom believe in your fellow human beings. Most of us are good most of the time.
 
Dec 2, 2003
4,245
- - Seabeck WA
Tom, you are right about that

As a retired law enforcement officer, I have come to the conclusion that the second greatest fraud ever perpetrated against the American people is the War on Drugs and the illegality that spawned it. I could go on for hours so lets talk boats. Oh, the first greatest fraud? Religion, of course! *666
 
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DMJ

Weighing In

Its been interesting reading these posts. Unlike previous editions of these same questions (regulation) it seems that more people are in favor of some kind of licensing and enforcement. I think licensing is a good idea, however, I do not think it should be easy to get a license (I'll explain shortly). I think that enforcement is currently sufficient and I'll explain that also. I do not think that laws are designed to keep us from doing what we would otherwise do. Okay, maybe speeding would be the exception for me. I do think that laws do reduce crime. If nothing else, they take the bad guys off the street for awhile and off the street means they are not committing crimes. Back to licensing. I would suggest the aviation model. You get a license after spending sufficient time with an instructor to meet the requirements of the checkride. Checkride is given by a designated person by the FAA (Federal Aviation Administration). Your license is for life. However, to use the license you need to do a checkride with an instructor at least every two years. Failing the checkride does not cause you to lose your license. It does mean that the instructor can require you do do some additional instructional time to fix whatever deficiencies have crept into your skills. Enforcement in the aviation model is almost transparent. There are no sky cops. The Coast Gurad does not pull you over and do a safety check. The FAA does have the right to inspect your aircraft and talk to you on a random basis. In 30 years of flying that never happened to me, and I suspect that it is a rare occurance. If your actions are unsafe and it is noticed they will and can do anything from a simple chat to taking your license away. Learning to fly is a combination of developing the requisite skills and demonstrating an ability and judgement to perform the activity safely. The instructor has no interest in recommending you for a checkride if any of those qualities are missing. I know instructors who have had heart to heart talks with students advising them against the activity. And just to make it a little more controversial, I think the same rules that apply to aviation should apply to driving. At least a check ride every four years on renewal, with a private instructor not the DMV. By the way, instructors are evaluated by the FAA based on the pass rate of the checkride attempts. Again, regulation by performance. I spent four days in classes (BK) before I took out a small sailboat as captain. I spent four more days in classes (BC) before I could take out boats up to 34 feet. I spent ten days on the water in those boats and four more days in classes (BB) before I could take out the larger boats. I have done an all day anchoring class and 9 days of offshore training as well. Training does not hurt. A do agree that you can't teach judgement. However, with licensing, and required sign-offs, you can interfere with those whose poor judgeement is an issue. Will any of that prevent accidents, or Captain (or pilot) error. No, but it will reduce the incidence to acceptable levels of risk and it will gradually increase the general knowledge of the users. So, I am for licensing, but only if it includes a requirement for training and recurrent evaluation. Otherwise, it is as meaningless as the DMV sending out automatic renewals of my drivers license for the last 30 years or so. Dan Jonas (S/V Feije II)
 
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Steve Zweigart

Trying to pin me down, are you?

I'm a lawyer...I'm supposed to talk out of both sides of my mouth! If forced to take a position, I would say that there should be mandatory training and licensing. Ideally, the training would be open to anyone of any age who could succesfully complete it, and various classes of licenses would be available based upon the level of training accomplished. A minimal level of licensing should be required before a person could command a vessel on "public" waterways. This should include minimally basic safety including equipment, rules of the road, radio operation, etc. Perhaps "checkout" rides should be conducted in various vessel types, much like aircraft checkrides, in order certify the operator in that type of craft. Again, I believe that the best way to implement this is for boaters to police their own sport, like amateur radio operators. This would keep the governmental @%$# to a minimum and help foster the fraternity of boating. Would allow many of us to give back to the sport/hobby that has given so much to us. I'd personally love to hang around the dock a few weekends out of the year checking out everyone from kids in jonboats to their parents and grandparents in houseboats. Then there are the legal liability issues....
 
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