Auto-Pilots

[Apex]

Getting a new to me boat, that does not have autopilot. This seemed like as good a place for electronics. But what are your considerations for picking out an auto-pilot. Wheel-steered, cable on quadrant.

Brand: I have a Garmin smartwatch. That is the extent of recent products and may be a (SMALL) deciding factor in choosing an auto-pilot brand.

I am thinking about under deck as opposed to wheel mounted.
Current wind instruments are older datamarine (huge round like old signet). I assume I will replace in near future, so is making all electronics the same brand beneficial for staying feature rich?, or NMMA adequate? I have a windex and GPS currently with raymarine tiller pilot st2000. So don't rely on electronics. But single-handing will want a pilot as phase1updates.

Any brands have an edge over others?
B&G, Raymarien, Garmin

 

[dlochner]

The first question is how big and heavy is the boat? The second question is where and how do you sail, on the ocean, offshore, Great Lakes, etc.? Are you cruising and will rely heavily on the autopilot when sailing? Or do you just want a third hand once in a while?

Wheel pilots work well on smaller lighter boats. As boats get larger than about 32 feet wheel pilots become less effective, they just don't have the power and speed to drive the boat in more boisterous conditions, they do work while motoring in calm waters or as a hand when raising sails or going below for a few minutes.

Each brand has its own following. I'm a B&G fan. They have been producing sailing oriented instruments from day one and are used almost exclusively on the round the world racers. The current models of chart plotters, autopilots, and radar have well developed sailing features. B&G uses standard NMEA 2000 cables. Raymarine has had a checkered history, however, since being acquired by Flir a few years ago things seemed to have improved. Garmin has made chart plotters for a long time, however they are relatively new comers to the radar and ap markets. I have owned some Garmin products and have always found their interfaces to be poorly designed, so I have shied away from Garmin. Maybe they are different now.

Mixing and matching brands can be done with some parts of the system. However, radars and autopilot computers use proprietary protocols for some functions which limits the options. In a mix and match system if there is a problem, tech support will be more challenging. The support guys will almost always blame the other parts of the system. So, my recommendation is to stick with one brand for the core of the system, Instruments, AP, Chartplotter, and Radar. We have all B&G with the exception of the AIS, which is a Vesper Marine unit, it integrates with the other devices well using NMEA 2K.

Take your time and do your research. A new ether net based protocol has been released this year, so expect some changes over the next couple of years and better deals on last generation equipment.

 

[tfox2069]

Wow, can of worms OPENED!

You'll probably get lots of opinions on which brand, etc. I've got a mix, so no particular opinion on that. What I would say is that right now is the perfect time to update the old (and possibly incompatible with a modern autopilot) electronics on your new-to-you boat. This means wind, water speed/depth sensors, displays, electronic compass, and chartplotter (and then add in the autopilot system components). I'd go with a single brand for ease of dealing with warranty, installation, learning/operating the new system, seamless interface, and being able to use all the functions of the new system.

See what folks say with regard to brands, but then go price the whole system for each brand - with installation if that's the route you're going - and see how they compare. You may see a more clear winner emerge on price (for similar capability) than you will from the brand opinions on the site. The three brands you mentioned are all very capable and high quality, so I wouldn't be worried about going with any of them. I'd worry more about price, warranty, and installation costs (and deciding what capabilities you want, which will drive the equipment you spec).

Maybe not the answer you want. Good luck.

Edit: Boat Show season is nearly upon us. That's the best time to make a great deal on big buys like this. Head to one of the big shows and see what kind of deals you could make there. Might save you a significant amount of boat units.

 

[BigEasy]

DLochner's advice is "right on."
My new to me boat was equipped with a Raymarine wheel pilot. It was OK at best. Finally was unrepairable and out dated, so I replaced it with a new Raymarine EV100 wheel pilot, because installing a linear drive below deck model was too expensive, not only from the cost of the pilot, but also because of major modifications and custom components required to install it. All of the other onboard instruments are also Raymarine, so that influenced my selection. The new autopilot is better than the old one; however, not as good as a below deck model. For a 28' boat, you should be fine with a wheel pilot. Be aware that there isn't much of a selection for wheel type pilots. As Dave mentioned, I would not mix and match different manufactures. It's difficult enough ( unless you're an electronics wizard) to install this equipment and have it synced, without complicating matters by trying to link different manufactures protocols.

 

[sail sfbay]

I have only installed or have Raymarine autopilots so I do not have an opinion on the other brands you mentioned. On my Hunter 31 I replaced an older Autohelm with a new Raymarine wheel pilots, which was suitable for that boat's relatively low displacement and would be fine for your sailboat. My Hunter 386 had a below deck linear drive hydraulic autopilot and now 46 I had/have a below deck linear drive autopilot, compatible with all my other Raymarine navigation electronics and very reliable. Might find this article helpful in your selection Selecting an Autopilot | West Marine . Suggest comparing prices for the autopilot and installation for an autopilot system that matches your sailboat's displacement plus 20% margin and descide if it needs to be compatible with your other electronics.

 

[MikeHoncho]

CPT Autopilot is a wheel mount. Stand alone system that can and has steered very large vessels. I like the simplicity of mine and the fact that it is stand alone. It’s a beast and I have full confidence in its ability to keep on course during the worst of times. I agree with the above generalizations regarding the limited applicability of wheel mount systems with the exception of this system. My previous system was a Autohelm3000 that couldn’t steer itself out of a wet paper bag with any out of trim conditions

 

[jssailem]

More than the brand is matching the type of AP to the boat and the type of sailing you want to trust to an AP.
On an ODay 28, if this is the new boat of which your speak..."Getting a new to me boat, that does not have autopilot", I opine that the Wheel EV100 is a practical solution for a boat that size for most day sailing and moderate cruising on the Great Lakes. It is affordable (less than 1.5 boat bucks), easy to DIY install and will handle most of the helm tasks under the conditions specified.

If you are planning to cross Lake Michigan, for example, in the dead of winter when the Gales of November come calling, then the Wheel AP will not provide the poser needed to manage the helm while you shelter in the cabin in your freezing foulies.

If you are looking to acquire a larger or heavier boat then the AP needs to be more stout and either the EV 200 or 300 by Raymarine, or the CPT wheel pilot are good options with my preference for the EV 200 on a boat less than 42 feet. The EV200 will set you back 2.5 boat bucks to purchase and plus some to have it installed or to try and DIY it. Installation costs are part of the draw back but also the reason for the systems being more powerful. The CPT is a more powerful wheel pilot than the EV100. I find the exposed motor cog and drive belt to be a draw back and perhaps a safety issue to consider.

Let us know what you are buying.

 

[Tally Ho]

My O’Day 322 has an old RayMarine ST4000+ wheel pilot. It does “OK” in most conditions, but waves in the 4 feet or higher (particularly With short wave periods 3 secs or so) can drive the thing mad.

I ran it tonight In 1 foot or less seas, 13 knot of wind on a beam reach for several hours. Tried to outrun a Storm cell on the way back, and the AP held course well, even with full Genoa and main up.

The newer EV100 wheel pilot have more software setting I think for settings…new compass and APU are probably faster than my old girl.

CPI looks robust. Not sure if it can interface using N2K…I think only the older 0183 protocol.
I just don’t like the exposed belt on that design. I don’t think they are any cheaper than Wheel pilots.

I use mine mostly as a hand when raising and lowering sails, grabbing a beer from the fridge, emptying a beer in the head, making a snack, or when I am lazy (pretty much all the time I guess).


Greg

 

[MikeHoncho]

My O’Day 322 has an old RayMarine ST4000+ wheel pilot. It does “OK” in most conditions, but waves in the 4 feet or higher (particularly With short wave periods 3 secs or so) can drive the thing mad.

I ran it tonight In 1 foot or less seas, 13 knot of wind on a beam reach for several hours. Tried to outrun a Storm cell on the way back, and the AP held course well, even with full Genoa and main up.

The newer EV100 wheel pilot have more software setting I think for settings…new compass and APU are probably faster than my old girl.

CPI looks robust. Not sure if it can interface using N2K…I think only the older 0183 protocol.
I just don’t like the exposed belt on that design. I don’t think they are any cheaper than Wheel pilots.

I use mine mostly as a hand when raising and lowering sails, grabbing a beer from the fridge, emptying a beer in the head, making a snack, or when I am lazy (pretty much all the time I guess).


Greg

They have no integration and run a touch over 2k. I appreciate the ability for the access to the system and remove it in a pinch.

 

[Ward H]

I think an important question you need to answer is whether you are doing this DYI or hiring the job out. If buying an installed package your supplier can help you mix and match to get the features / cost you want.
If you're doing the job yourself, how techie are you and do you want to be asking the forum Will this AP work with this chart plotter and this wind instrument? Sticking with one manufacturer helps to ensure all your instruments play well with each other.
If DYI, read up on putting together a NMEA 2000 network. Want more of a plug and play system or build your own? Raymarine has it's own cabling system which is color coded. Black and white cables are spur cables and connect to the white connectors on RM products. Black and blue cables are backbone cables and connect to blue connectors on the backbone.
I believe there is a bit more of a learning curve if building your own cabling system as backbone and drop cables (same as RM spur cables) are not color coded but cheaper.
For instruments try to find a vender where you can try out various chart plotters and see what feels user friendly to you. I never found my Garmin CP user friendly and the same with my brief experience with B&G, even though I believe the B&G has more features for sailors.
I did find the RM Axiom very easy to figure out and I feel if the CP is user friendly so will the various other instruments such as the AP.

I'm very happy with why Raymarine system. EV-100 AP, Axiom CP, i70 instrument displays, etc. I found the system easy to build and to get up and running.

 

[Apex]

Great responses ALL;
New boat is a C&C 30 MarkII. Wheel steering, and I think I will follow tfox's advice and try my hand at some boat shows. Thinking ahead to a suite of electronics versus piece meal that may or may not work together makes sense, and is the reason for posting, and confirmation on initial thoughts.

B&G intrigues me, as does a below deck pilot control as opposed to wheel mounted. All options are presenting as a much nicer looking unit than the old clunker ST2000. Same goes for wind instruments that are currently the old datamarine 4inch displays.

 

[b.needalman]

An underdeck autopilot is more reliable and able to steer in higher winds and seas than a tiller or wheel mounted one. Also considerably more expensive and more difficult to install.

Autopilots are sold like Barbie dolls, each component sold separately. You will need the following:
1. autopilot black box
2. gyrocompass
3. control box (turns pilot, on, off, etc.)
4. rudder actuator
5, rudder position indicator
6. NEMA 200 cables and connectors to network components together plus power cabling to the actuator
7. new wind instrument (if you want steer to wind feature to work)
8. chartplotter/gps (if you want steer to destination, vs heading, to work)

To start, you need the first six items to get a functioning autopilot that will maintain a compass course. Your wind instrument is too old to network to current autopilots. Unless your DIY skills are above average, you will want a professional to install at least the actuator. It must be positioned correctly and mounted to a strong point, so some engineering or experience is required.

While in theory components should work together, all of the items should come from the same manufacturer to avoid finger pointing when the inevitable problems arise. Consider the features of all future components (chartplotter, radar, etc.) when selecting a supplier.

Raymarine, B&G, and Garmin all make sailing specific products that show mainly in chartplotter features. B&G makes really high end racing systems, which are out of budget for most of us, but also supplies competitive units for us ordinary cruisers.

 

[Ward H]

Autopilots are sold like Barbie dolls, each component sold separately.

Not always.
Raymarine offers complete kits that include 1, 2, 3 , 4 and 6 for wheel and below deck systems.
Item 5 isn’t required to get a working wheel driven AP. (no experience there with below deck systems). In fact the EV-100 manual says one is not needed with the EV-1 Sensor Core.

My EV-100 handles my 10,500lb C-30 great without the rudder sensor.
It took maybe a month of weekend sailing to tweak the various settings to get the system stable in >20 winds.
Good sail trim is needed, as always.

It looks like an under deck system doubles the price.

 

[dlochner]

An underdeck autopilot is more reliable and able to steer in higher winds and seas than a tiller or wheel mounted one. Also considerably more expensive and more difficult to install.

Autopilots are sold like Barbie dolls, each component sold separately. You will need the following:
1. autopilot black box
2. gyrocompass
3. control box (turns pilot, on, off, etc.)
4. rudder actuator
5, rudder position indicator
6. NEMA 200 cables and connectors to network components together plus power cabling to the actuator
7. new wind instrument (if you want steer to wind feature to work)
8. chartplotter/gps (if you want steer to destination, vs heading, to work)

To start, you need the first six items to get a functioning autopilot that will maintain a compass course. Your wind instrument is too old to network to current autopilots. Unless your DIY skills are above average, you will want a professional to install at least the actuator. It must be positioned correctly and mounted to a strong point, so some engineering or experience is required.

While in theory components should work together, all of the items should come from the same manufacturer to avoid finger pointing when the inevitable problems arise. Consider the features of all future components (chartplotter, radar, etc.) when selecting a supplier.

Raymarine, B&G, and Garmin all make sailing specific products that show mainly in chartplotter features. B&G makes really high end racing systems, which are out of budget for most of us, but also supplies competitive units for us ordinary cruisers.

The B&G Zeus and Vulcan lines are price competitive with Garmin and Raymarine and have a long history of providing high quality sailing intruments, something neither Garmin or Raymarine can claim.

There are three major systems involved in a below deck AP, the controls, the brains, and the drive unit. At least B&G sells a "Core Pack" which contains the brains and sensors to run the AP. The controller can either be a B&G chart plotter (Zeus or Vulcan series) or a dedicated controller, the drive unit can be from many different vendors. The controller and the brains need to be from the same company as there will be some proprietary protocols involved.

The OP is installing this on a C&C 30, for a boat this size a wheel pilot will be adequate in most circumstances unless he is thinking of crossing oceans. When I had a Sabre 30 a RM wheel pilot worked well. The price differential between a below decks unit and a wheel pilot it is significant, perhaps 2 to 3 times the cost of a wheel pilot.

 

[MikeHoncho]

I'd have to believe a below deck system uses considerably more power than others.

 

[dlochner]

I'd have to believe a below deck system uses considerably more power than others.

You would be correct. The big power draw is the drive unit, which has high draws on an intermittent basis. The power draw for brains for both a wheel pilot or below decks won't differ much. The controller is also an insignificant draw.

 

[nramsey]

I don't know if that is logical. I have an Alfa autopilot with an underdeck ram that is very efficient, drawing less than 2 amps when working hard. I don't think a wheel pilot is necessarily more efficient.
If you are interested in a DIY approach then look at pypilot.org It can integrate with "Openplotter" or be a stand alone install.

 

[Apex]

Watching spme intro videos and past semonars on the youtoobs...b&g is more sailor oriented, garmin simple user interface.. overgeneralization? Likely yes.

 

[Apex]

so some local knowledge has it, hearing technical difficulties in B&G of recent? Any experience for recent installers on the current kit? .so their preference is Garmin, with a cost and customer service edge.

I did check with Defender on their current boat show sales for B&G:
12" and 9" Vulcan displays, hydr. under deck autopilot with controller, compass external GPS and rudder sensor, wind package with Airmars new sensor, two displays and masthead unit: all in around $7k refit.

 

[sail sfbay]

.........New boat is a C&C 30 MarkII. Wheel steering.............

A wheel pilot would work on that size boat and will cost far less than a below deck autopilot. I installed one on my Hunter 31. My Hunter 386 and 46 have below deck autopilot, bit they are very expensive. All were Raymarine, same as my wind, speed depth and navigation display. As others pointed out, price the different manufactures for wheel and below deck autopilots and labor cost estimates for each.