Atomic Four woes

[RichH]

Devian --- dont listen to the fear-mongers

The A4 when properly set up, 'modernized' and maintained is probably more reliable, of equal weight (or MUCH less) than an oil burner. Rarely does a well maintained A4 ever wear out; the only 'usual' terminal problem is corrosion INSIDE the engine. Even if your engine is totally defunct, a precision rebuilt A4 will be 1/3 the cost of a new diesel; the diesel ALSO requiring new fuel tank/system, new beds, new propshaft/prop., new exhaust system, etc. etc. .... about $14000-15000. There are many proven aftermarket upgrades to this venerable and proven old A4 engine design: electronic ignition, fresh water cooling, etc. etc. etc. that will keep your A4 running for MANY years to come. BUT..... after you get this engine started do the following to assay if there is enough 'meat' (metal thickness) left to make any upgrades cost effective: simply remove one of the exhaust manifold bolts, carefully reach into the bolt bore/hole with a fine and bent probe similar to a dental pick .... and simply count how many threads you can 'feel' with that dental pick. If you can count 4 or more threads then you have enough 'meat' to accomplish the worst case --- rebuild. Less than 4 means that internal corrosion has exceeded the 'usual' and you should later consider to replace the engine (preferably with an A4 rebuild). A4s hardly ever ever 'wear out'; rather, their premature death is the result of internal corrosion (easily preventable with an aftermarket fresh water system upgrade) AND owner and 'mechanics' who have no idea of how to take care of one. HINT for future: never long term 'store' an A4 'dry' ... always keep the engine filled with 50:50 antifreeze -- to prevent/retard internal corrosion of the engine internals and exhaust manifold; never DRY. There is NO marine diesel engine of this size that runs as SMOOTH and reliable as an A4. Prepare to get a mortgage if you desire to change to a diesel. No small boat diesels are US made anymore, the $US has declined so badly in the past year and that due to todays 'currency exchange rates' the above $11000 estimate (2 years old) today may cost upwards of $15-16000 for a diesel 'replacement' .... then add the cost of the needed 'accessories'. Dont fall into this 'trap' and make the boo-birds richer. Do get a copy of Moyer's "Maintenance and Rebuild manual". Even if you are not handy with tools, etc. you can give/loan it to your 'mechanic' to use ... as there are damn FEW marine mechanics anymore who truly KNOW the ATomic 4. It was and still is a GOOD engine. Dont let the boo-birds and boatyard shysters tell you anything different. hope this helps. ;-)

 

[RichH]

Devian --- dont listen to the fear-mongers

The A4 when properly set up, 'modernized' and maintained is probably more reliable, of equal weight (or MUCH less) than an oil burner. Rarely does a well maintained A4 ever wear out; the only 'usual' terminal problem is corrosion INSIDE the engine. Even if your engine is totally defunct, a precision rebuilt A4 will be 1/3 the cost of a new diesel; the diesel ALSO requiring new fuel tank/system, new beds, new propshaft/prop., new exhaust system, etc. etc. .... about $14000-15000. There are many proven aftermarket upgrades to this venerable and proven old A4 engine design: electronic ignition, fresh water cooling, etc. etc. etc. that will keep your A4 running for MANY years to come. BUT..... after you get this engine started do the following to assay if there is enough 'meat' (metal thickness) left to make any upgrades cost effective: simply remove one of the exhaust manifold bolts, carefully reach into the bolt bore/hole with a fine and bent probe similar to a dental pick .... and simply count how many threads you can 'feel' with that dental pick. If you can count 4 or more threads then you have enough 'meat' to accomplish the worst case --- rebuild. Less than 4 means that internal corrosion has exceeded the 'usual' and you should later consider to replace the engine (preferably with an A4 rebuild). A4s hardly ever ever 'wear out'; rather, their premature death is the result of internal corrosion (easily preventable with an aftermarket fresh water system upgrade) AND owner and 'mechanics' who have no idea of how to take care of one. HINT for future: never long term 'store' an A4 'dry' ... always keep the engine filled with 50:50 antifreeze -- to prevent/retard internal corrosion of the engine internals and exhaust manifold; never DRY. There is NO marine diesel engine of this size that runs as SMOOTH and reliable as an A4. Prepare to get a mortgage if you desire to change to a diesel. No small boat diesels are US made anymore, the $US has declined so badly in the past year and that due to todays 'currency exchange rates' the above $11000 estimate (2 years old) today may cost upwards of $15-16000 for a diesel 'replacement' .... then add the cost of the needed 'accessories'. Dont fall into this 'trap' and make the boo-birds richer. Do get a copy of Moyer's "Maintenance and Rebuild manual". Even if you are not handy with tools, etc. you can give/loan it to your 'mechanic' to use ... as there are damn FEW marine mechanics anymore who truly KNOW the ATomic 4. It was and still is a GOOD engine. Dont let the boo-birds and boatyard shysters tell you anything different. hope this helps. ;-)

 

[allen13458]

Used one for sale in the new orleans times picayune

$800.00 in the new orleans area. Go to nola.com click on clasifieds at bottom of page. Look under boat section.

 

[allen13458]

Used one for sale in the new orleans times picayune

$800.00 in the new orleans area. Go to nola.com click on clasifieds at bottom of page. Look under boat section.

 

[Fred Ficarra]

Rich, remember that he's not a gearhead or wrench.

How's he gonna do the stuff that you suggest without paying a marine mechanic, if he can find one, a sum equal to his mortgage? And what'll he have? A smooth idle. Well isn't that just ducky! Then he can power away in his displacement hull, scared to use more than quarter throttle because his Model-A design had the main bearings left out of its' design because there wasn't any need, (read; competition) in 1918!!! Devian, I made that 'smoothness' mistake too. I saw a sailboat docking one time in the seventies and thought the hull-shake I saw was because diesels vibrate. Any boat will shake if a folding prop hangs. My A4 sure did. Remember, everything I wrote in my first post is from personal experience. Horrible engine. I gave mine the very best of care. I changed the oil when it was still golden. Set the valves every season. Installed fresh water cooling when the engine was new. (Ericson wanted too much) Even upgraded the alternator. But couldn't do a thing about three consecutive bad sets of points, or the rotted out exhaust system because of it's antique design, or the CRANKSHAFT that broke in TWO in the wilds of Desolation Sound 200 miles from here. That's a story all it's own. If you don't want to make story's of your own, use that A4 for a mooring weight.And Rich, trying to help fellow sailors avoid disaster is not fear mongering! IT'S THE REASON THIS BOARD EXISTS!P.S. There are no modern diesel engines in the 25 to 30 horse power range that weigh within 50 pounds of a raw water cooled A4. (All diesels are lighter) And because an A4 can not be trusted when putting out more than 15 horsepower, that means a single cylinder diesel has much more power. (hell, they can't be trusted at any speed) Remember, gas and diesel power ARE NOT THE SAME. Diesel engines have significantly more thrust for the rating. A gas engine needs to produce 25 to 50% more shaft power than its rating to equal a diesel. Oops, how would you know that? Sorry.There have been NO gas engines available, new, for a sailboat, for the past 30 years or so. There sure as hell are more than 12 reasons for that!

 

[Fred Ficarra]

Rich, remember that he's not a gearhead or wrench.

How's he gonna do the stuff that you suggest without paying a marine mechanic, if he can find one, a sum equal to his mortgage? And what'll he have? A smooth idle. Well isn't that just ducky! Then he can power away in his displacement hull, scared to use more than quarter throttle because his Model-A design had the main bearings left out of its' design because there wasn't any need, (read; competition) in 1918!!! Devian, I made that 'smoothness' mistake too. I saw a sailboat docking one time in the seventies and thought the hull-shake I saw was because diesels vibrate. Any boat will shake if a folding prop hangs. My A4 sure did. Remember, everything I wrote in my first post is from personal experience. Horrible engine. I gave mine the very best of care. I changed the oil when it was still golden. Set the valves every season. Installed fresh water cooling when the engine was new. (Ericson wanted too much) Even upgraded the alternator. But couldn't do a thing about three consecutive bad sets of points, or the rotted out exhaust system because of it's antique design, or the CRANKSHAFT that broke in TWO in the wilds of Desolation Sound 200 miles from here. That's a story all it's own. If you don't want to make story's of your own, use that A4 for a mooring weight.And Rich, trying to help fellow sailors avoid disaster is not fear mongering! IT'S THE REASON THIS BOARD EXISTS!P.S. There are no modern diesel engines in the 25 to 30 horse power range that weigh within 50 pounds of a raw water cooled A4. (All diesels are lighter) And because an A4 can not be trusted when putting out more than 15 horsepower, that means a single cylinder diesel has much more power. (hell, they can't be trusted at any speed) Remember, gas and diesel power ARE NOT THE SAME. Diesel engines have significantly more thrust for the rating. A gas engine needs to produce 25 to 50% more shaft power than its rating to equal a diesel. Oops, how would you know that? Sorry.There have been NO gas engines available, new, for a sailboat, for the past 30 years or so. There sure as hell are more than 12 reasons for that!

 

[RichH]

Lets remember that he HAS an A4

What he HAS is an A4, probably doesnt need to think about replacement, rebuild, new, etc. just get the damn thing started! Considering and recommending electric-hybrids, diesels, outboards and oars can come later. All he really want to do is START what he has. Depending on the way the engine is set up to match its best peak on the bhp vs. rpm curve you simply cant state that a diesel is better than a gasoline engine or vice versa vs. heat output vs. torque. Its simple thermodynamic comparison of the Diesel cycle and the Otto cycle (two cycle or 4) .... but lets not go there.A good recent article on Atomic 4s in a 'boat mag' that isnt trying to 'spin' something, etc. www.cncphotoalbum.com/atomic4manual/good_old_A4.htmregards;-)

 

[RichH]

Lets remember that he HAS an A4

What he HAS is an A4, probably doesnt need to think about replacement, rebuild, new, etc. just get the damn thing started! Considering and recommending electric-hybrids, diesels, outboards and oars can come later. All he really want to do is START what he has. Depending on the way the engine is set up to match its best peak on the bhp vs. rpm curve you simply cant state that a diesel is better than a gasoline engine or vice versa vs. heat output vs. torque. Its simple thermodynamic comparison of the Diesel cycle and the Otto cycle (two cycle or 4) .... but lets not go there.A good recent article on Atomic 4s in a 'boat mag' that isnt trying to 'spin' something, etc. www.cncphotoalbum.com/atomic4manual/good_old_A4.htmregards;-)

 

[CalebD]

I just love you guys who tell someone what they should

or should not do, what they can and cannot do, what they should and should not try (oops, I guess I am one of them too). Everyone's mileage varies with everything, including the Atomic 4. Do I wish I had a newer engine like a diesel in my boat? Yes, if I wanted to spend another nearly $18K on a boat that cost me $4K to purchase used. So Fred F. I envy you your boat and hot rod only from the perspective that I wish I had taken the auto mechanics shop class they offered in my high school, years ago. I miss the 66' and later Valiant/Dodge slant 6 engine I knew in college for it's simplicity under the hood. You could see the driveway underneath the engine in those days unlike with todays cars where all kinds of systems take up any free space. The point is (if there is one), that even if the Atomic 4 is not engineered up to todays standards or the slant 6 engine of yore it is still a work horse. The A4 is a pretty amazing motor whose relatives were probably in farm equipment, trucks, military vehicles and finally boats. They have been upgraded somewhat through the efforts of a few staunch supporters. If you had bad luck with one and had to replace the points 3 times that does not mean that everyone's experience will be the same as yours. Your own particular mileage will vary from mine.When I took possession of my Tartan 27' in 3 Mi. Harbor I trusted the PO who told me everything he could in a whole day session about the boats rigging and detailed engine maintenance instructions which I recorded on a memo tape recorder. I planned to take the boat on it's maiden voyage on a delivery cruise 100 nm. or so back to the western LI Sound. I knew nothing more about the engine other than what the PO told me and the voluminous documentation he kept about it and the boats other systems (several binders). I did know that this boat was loved and well maintained for an older boat. I knew then what a spark plug, wrench, battery and water pump were but since then I have gained a much more intimate knowledge of how these things and more systems work in almost ANY gasoline engine because I took the bull by the horns and researched and read a lot and am not afraid of getting my fingernails dirty. Our engine had been converted to electric ignition and thus had no points so I know only a little on that subject but 5 years of ownership have taught me a lot too.I would not classify myself as a 'gearhead' as I mostly work with finishing carpentry, wood finishing and various electrical and plumbing stuff. I am also not trying to negate anything you have to say on this subject as I am certain that you know a lot, I am just adding my own perspective.Love/know the devil/engine you have."Love the one you're with. Du du du du du du dududu..." CSNYI am actually a lot more faithful to my wife, friends and boat than that lyric sounds.Let the gas/A4 vs. diesel engines debate flame on...

 

[CalebD]

I just love you guys who tell someone what they should

or should not do, what they can and cannot do, what they should and should not try (oops, I guess I am one of them too). Everyone's mileage varies with everything, including the Atomic 4. Do I wish I had a newer engine like a diesel in my boat? Yes, if I wanted to spend another nearly $18K on a boat that cost me $4K to purchase used. So Fred F. I envy you your boat and hot rod only from the perspective that I wish I had taken the auto mechanics shop class they offered in my high school, years ago. I miss the 66' and later Valiant/Dodge slant 6 engine I knew in college for it's simplicity under the hood. You could see the driveway underneath the engine in those days unlike with todays cars where all kinds of systems take up any free space. The point is (if there is one), that even if the Atomic 4 is not engineered up to todays standards or the slant 6 engine of yore it is still a work horse. The A4 is a pretty amazing motor whose relatives were probably in farm equipment, trucks, military vehicles and finally boats. They have been upgraded somewhat through the efforts of a few staunch supporters. If you had bad luck with one and had to replace the points 3 times that does not mean that everyone's experience will be the same as yours. Your own particular mileage will vary from mine.When I took possession of my Tartan 27' in 3 Mi. Harbor I trusted the PO who told me everything he could in a whole day session about the boats rigging and detailed engine maintenance instructions which I recorded on a memo tape recorder. I planned to take the boat on it's maiden voyage on a delivery cruise 100 nm. or so back to the western LI Sound. I knew nothing more about the engine other than what the PO told me and the voluminous documentation he kept about it and the boats other systems (several binders). I did know that this boat was loved and well maintained for an older boat. I knew then what a spark plug, wrench, battery and water pump were but since then I have gained a much more intimate knowledge of how these things and more systems work in almost ANY gasoline engine because I took the bull by the horns and researched and read a lot and am not afraid of getting my fingernails dirty. Our engine had been converted to electric ignition and thus had no points so I know only a little on that subject but 5 years of ownership have taught me a lot too.I would not classify myself as a 'gearhead' as I mostly work with finishing carpentry, wood finishing and various electrical and plumbing stuff. I am also not trying to negate anything you have to say on this subject as I am certain that you know a lot, I am just adding my own perspective.Love/know the devil/engine you have."Love the one you're with. Du du du du du du dududu..." CSNYI am actually a lot more faithful to my wife, friends and boat than that lyric sounds.Let the gas/A4 vs. diesel engines debate flame on...

 

[Fred Ficarra]

Calebd and Rich, you both know where I'm coming from

First, Cal! The very essence of hot roding is that you go out and GET that old car from your youth. Do it anyway that you can afford. Build it yourself. It's easy, but you have to try. Sure, in my case I've still got the hotrod from my youth but if the truth be known, I'm just like nearly everyone out there that has a fond heart for cars. Yep. Sure wish I had my 61 Impala bubble top back. Cool car. I swapped out the 348 tri power for a 360 horse 396 in '67. That car is only a memory. (My brother bought a plastic model for me that I keep in the computer room. Oh well.) That car is also the only car to beat my Camaro in a street,,,, nevermind.And the car before that? A 1954 2DrHt Hudson Hornet Hollywood with dual H Power and a Turbohydramatic 4 speed. Top of the line from Hudson. Better than the Paul Newman Hudson in the movie Cars. I was too ignorant to keep it running in those days. Oh well.So, I digress. Here's where I'm coming from: Guys like me appreciate their equipment. They know when it performs well and takes care of them. The bond only grows. Sailboats, for those of us with similar mind sets, only grow more-so. When a guys engine fails because of an inherent design flaw at the worst possible time, the romance is over. I was so angry trying to nurse the boat back to civilization. Angry because I ASSUMED that the crank broke because it only had THREE main bearings. Then I took it apart. I was stunned. And, on top of that, the crack was cast into the crank. It's plain as day on my video. Universal never even magnafluxed it or they would have rejected the crank during production. The president of the company denies that they fail to perform that test. He lies! When we finally reached Friday Harbor and I contacted the local marine machine shop for a crank, the man behind the counter listened to me then turned and yelled over his shoulder to his parts-man "Hey Bill, another A bomb that just detonated for ya". I bought a Yanmar.

 

[Fred Ficarra]

Calebd and Rich, you both know where I'm coming from

First, Cal! The very essence of hot roding is that you go out and GET that old car from your youth. Do it anyway that you can afford. Build it yourself. It's easy, but you have to try. Sure, in my case I've still got the hotrod from my youth but if the truth be known, I'm just like nearly everyone out there that has a fond heart for cars. Yep. Sure wish I had my 61 Impala bubble top back. Cool car. I swapped out the 348 tri power for a 360 horse 396 in '67. That car is only a memory. (My brother bought a plastic model for me that I keep in the computer room. Oh well.) That car is also the only car to beat my Camaro in a street,,,, nevermind.And the car before that? A 1954 2DrHt Hudson Hornet Hollywood with dual H Power and a Turbohydramatic 4 speed. Top of the line from Hudson. Better than the Paul Newman Hudson in the movie Cars. I was too ignorant to keep it running in those days. Oh well.So, I digress. Here's where I'm coming from: Guys like me appreciate their equipment. They know when it performs well and takes care of them. The bond only grows. Sailboats, for those of us with similar mind sets, only grow more-so. When a guys engine fails because of an inherent design flaw at the worst possible time, the romance is over. I was so angry trying to nurse the boat back to civilization. Angry because I ASSUMED that the crank broke because it only had THREE main bearings. Then I took it apart. I was stunned. And, on top of that, the crack was cast into the crank. It's plain as day on my video. Universal never even magnafluxed it or they would have rejected the crank during production. The president of the company denies that they fail to perform that test. He lies! When we finally reached Friday Harbor and I contacted the local marine machine shop for a crank, the man behind the counter listened to me then turned and yelled over his shoulder to his parts-man "Hey Bill, another A bomb that just detonated for ya". I bought a Yanmar.

 

[sailortonyb Allied Mis]

Fred and Devian

I think what some people are up against is the fact that repowering would cost more than the boat is worth. And if didnt, they still may not have the money to invest. Using the car analogy, if you were to drive from Washington to NY and you had a somewhat doubtful engine, the choice would be clear...repower or dont go. On the other hand, if you were only driving locally, why not keep the old engine alive as long as possible?In Devians particular situation, encouragement can lead to slowly spending a lot of money just to get to the point where he will find out if the engine is even worth saving.My suggestion would be to forget about the A4. Spend the money and get a brand spanking new 9.9 HP 4stroke Outboard Motor. That will be more than sufficient to push an old Columbia 28. Not one dime out of the $2.5k will be watsed. If you ever upgrade, you can take the 9.9 and use it on a dinghy.IMNSHOTony B

 

[sailortonyb Allied Mis]

Fred and Devian

I think what some people are up against is the fact that repowering would cost more than the boat is worth. And if didnt, they still may not have the money to invest. Using the car analogy, if you were to drive from Washington to NY and you had a somewhat doubtful engine, the choice would be clear...repower or dont go. On the other hand, if you were only driving locally, why not keep the old engine alive as long as possible?In Devians particular situation, encouragement can lead to slowly spending a lot of money just to get to the point where he will find out if the engine is even worth saving.My suggestion would be to forget about the A4. Spend the money and get a brand spanking new 9.9 HP 4stroke Outboard Motor. That will be more than sufficient to push an old Columbia 28. Not one dime out of the $2.5k will be watsed. If you ever upgrade, you can take the 9.9 and use it on a dinghy.IMNSHOTony B

 

[Fred Ficarra]

Hmmm, Tony.

I don't think in those terms. It's foreign to me to consider an outboard for replacement of an inboard, but,,,,in this case, why not?

 

[Fred Ficarra]

Hmmm, Tony.

I don't think in those terms. It's foreign to me to consider an outboard for replacement of an inboard, but,,,,in this case, why not?

 

[sailortonyb Allied Mis]

Fred and Devian

I have seen it done many times with 28 and 30 footers so I know that 9.9HP is sufficient. Lots of cavitation in waves, but it will get you home. I would suggest nothing other than a Johnson Sailmaster or equivelant. Mainly because the Sailmaster has an extra long shaft...longer than normal, is pull started but still has an alternator and also because the exhaust comes out the sides of the fin on the bottom rather than the middle. This means that whenn you are in reverse, you are not turning your prop against your own exhaust bubbles. Much more effficient in reverse. I have found from experience that all of my older boats that had motor problems were eventually replaced with new motors. It costs more to keep alive and also GF didnt want to take long trips with old unreliable O/B.Tony B

 

[sailortonyb Allied Mis]

Fred and Devian

I have seen it done many times with 28 and 30 footers so I know that 9.9HP is sufficient. Lots of cavitation in waves, but it will get you home. I would suggest nothing other than a Johnson Sailmaster or equivelant. Mainly because the Sailmaster has an extra long shaft...longer than normal, is pull started but still has an alternator and also because the exhaust comes out the sides of the fin on the bottom rather than the middle. This means that whenn you are in reverse, you are not turning your prop against your own exhaust bubbles. Much more effficient in reverse. I have found from experience that all of my older boats that had motor problems were eventually replaced with new motors. It costs more to keep alive and also GF didnt want to take long trips with old unreliable O/B.Tony B

 

[Fred Ficarra]

There you have it Devian!

We've even picked out your next power plant. That OB Tony recommends is a good one. A buddy bought the Evenrude version.

 

[Fred Ficarra]

There you have it Devian!

We've even picked out your next power plant. That OB Tony recommends is a good one. A buddy bought the Evenrude version.