Asymmetrical Spinnaker Tack Point

[ltfzsolt]

Hello racers!

My wife and I sail an Express 34 in Alaska. Great boat, we absolutely love it, and race it 5-6x per summer up here. Folks who are familiar with the design will know that we run a symmetrical spinnaker.

This offseason we decided to experiment with an *asymmetrical* spinnaker as well. The goal is to have a big headsail that can point a bit higher than the symmetrical (we tend to lose on reaching legs) and be a bit easier to run than the symmetrical, which really requires a full crew. We got an A5, and I'm pretty excited about it.

That said, the "wind was taken out of my sails" when I realized we don't have a convenient location to tack it. See attached pictures - the only sensible anchor is literally right under the roller furler:

So - what does the community recommend here? I know some people use the anchor roller with zero issues, and it's pretty beefy... but definitely designed to pull from below (not above or sideways). I read some boats have had devastating failures from doing this.

Another option would be to go to the correct, reinforced tack point, but then the tack line would be pulling against the roller furler in one direction or another. Not ideal either.

I'm sure using the bowsprit would be a disaster waiting to happen so not even going to go there.

Is there some kind of loop or bridle folks can envision? How would other racers handle this?

Thank you!!!

 

[Will Gilmore]

I would reconsider the anchor roller. That U-bar loop doesn't really look strong enough and I don't know how well the roller ways itself is attached, but there must be simple ways to beef-up the U-guide and add L-brackets or something to the sides of the roller.

-Will

 

[Apex]

soft shackle and block from the loop under your furler. Run the tack line through that block. It will project forward under load

 

[sailme88]

Acquire an ATN Tacker.. It wraps around the furled headsail and is designed to slide or down to change the attack point. WM has them for $177.00. Might be less or more at other sellers.. With a quick release shackle on the tacker, you can sheet in the leeward sheet and pop the release, then douse with the sock and set the Genoa ...

 

[jssailem]

The ATN tacker is a good solution. I use it on my boat.
It is rigged like this.

In discussion with the North Sail loft, they told me that if I was concerned about the furler drum, I could attach a turning block on the bow pulpit. I have not needed to do that.

"Quick-release shackle."
This term is most often used to identify a Snap shackle. Having gotten smacked on the foredeck by one weighing in at 10 ounces of metal, I have replaced them with Dyneema soft shackles. Stronger, lighter 0.05lb (if that), no rust, easy to change or cut away if necessary, and if you get hit by it, it will not knock you out. At less than $5 in materials, it is a game changer.

 

[ltfzsolt]

These are all great replies - thank you!!! Some counter-questions:

I would reconsider the anchor roller. That U-bar loop doesn't really look strong enough and I don't know how well the roller ways itself is attached, but there must be simple ways to beef-up the U-guide and add L-brackets or something to the sides of the roller.

Definitely not the U-bar, but I could maybe run the tack line under the roller itself. The problem is it's designed to be pulled down, not up. I'm not so worried about the roller itself, I'm worried about it's connection to the deck, and ripping out. How can I assess how strong this is?

soft shackle and block from the loop under your furler. Run the tack line through that block. It will project forward under load

Do you still think it will project forward under load at a reach? Downwind for sure, but this is a bit more of a reaching sail, and can be sailed almost up to beam reach. I imagine the tack line would not be projecting forward much under those conditions. Also the forestay would interfere upon gybing, right?

Acquire an ATN Tacker.. It wraps around the furled headsail and is designed to wild or down to change the attack point. WM has them for $177.00. Might be less or more at other sellers.. With a quick release shackle on the tacker, you can sheet in the leeward sheet and pop the release, then douse with the sock and set the Genoa ...

Cool! Do I need to furl the jib before I hoist? That would put us at a disadvantage in a race, but maybe not fatal. Also, maybe I'm worrying about nothing, but how much pressure does that put on your poor furled-up jib? Does it need to be run *with* a tack line, or independently? Picture below includes a tack line, which I imagine is unloaded somewhat.

With that said - I bought one to try out. At a minimum it seems like a great cruising setup. Thanks for the recommendation.

In discussion with the North Sail loft, they told me that if I was concerned about the furler drum, I could attach a turning block on the bow pulpit. I have not needed to do that.

Thanks for the picture, that's really helpful. Incidentally, that block appears to point *back* a bit even though the tack line points forward.

I'm nervous about the turning block on the bow pulpit because the force could get pretty high in heavy wind... if I'm calculating it correctly. This article addresses how to estimate load forces on a turning block... worst case (using the Genoa factor) we plan for a breaking strength of 11,000 lbs on the halyard or sheet (!!!).

If it takes a 90 degree deflection at a turning block, the block ends up with a required breaking load of closer to 15,000 lbs. I know that's probably an insanely conservative way to calculate it, but I would also be devastated if I ripped a piece of the boat off if I lost track of wind speed on a reach leg.

Am I thinking about this wrong, or just freaking myself out?

 

[Davidasailor26]

Cool! Do I need to furl the jib before I hoist? That would put us at a disadvantage in a race, but maybe not fatal. Also, maybe I'm worrying about nothing, but how much pressure does that put on your poor furled-up jib? Does it need to be run *with* a tack line, or independently? Picture below includes a tack line, which I imagine is unloaded somewhat.

We have Neil Pryde Parrel Beads, which is their equivalent to the ATN tacker. In *very* light winds and deep wind angles it’s possible to raise the spinnaker then furl the jib and attach the tacked, but under almost all conditions you need to furl and attach the tacker before the kite it full. We use ours with a sock, so we generally furl, raise the sock, make sure all the sheets are run right, attach the tacker, then deploy the kite.

The force is split between the tacker and the tack line, so we haven’t seen any problems on our jib from it. When a gust hits and the kite shuffles the forestay does get pulled quite a bit, almost a concerning amount, but I tell myself that’s what the arrangement is designed for. Although the forces are split I wouldn’t be comfortable with any kind of block on the pulpit. I don’t think it’s designed for that and a block somewhere high up would have a lot of leverage.

 

[Joe]

I used to attached the tack to the forestay with a rig I cobbled together, worked quite well, ran the tackline back to the cockpit, but found I needed a winch to lower the tack as we got closer to the wind. The sail came with a device similar to the tacker, and when I installed the profurl unit, I hooked it up. Unfortunately, or fortunately I should say, the sails cloth "tacker" increased friction on the furled sail enough to irk me, and I'm just too cheap to plunk out $200 for a piece of plastic so I ordered some parrel beads. Now I'll get to the point, thank you, I started running the asym without attaching it to the forestay and found that it performed much, much better... the secret of course was to pay close attention to the height of your tack. But heck, the forestay wasn't letting the sail reach out ahead as I went more downwind, the tack was actually going backwards because it was captive to the sloping forestay. I hated it. The advantage of a pole or a sprit is the sail's tack is kept well clear and allowed to swing enough to windward to keep some flow going. That, of course is why you never sail downwind with an asym attached to the forestay...

Well, the parrel beads arrived and I rigged them up and really gave it the sincere effort....for like 10 minutes. I just couldn't take it. The sail just looks goofy all pinched in instead of floating free. Off they came, I was happy.... and it was way easier to adjust the tack height when I rigged a 2:1 purchase on the tack line and was able to make a lot of tweaks without a winch. You probably deduce that I got the bowsprit fever. The absolute way to go with an Asymetrical.... priced them out, figured I could get the Selden package for around $1,000. ( !!!Tariff Alert!!!.this was 9 years ago)
Briefly, lots happened and I never pursued the bowsprit dream...but over the years I learned a great deal about using an asymmetrical on a 27 foot boat. First, you don't need a dousing sock, a takedown line is better but still unnecessary, second parrel beads are way, way cheaper than an ATN Tacker (but didn't I say hooking on to the forestay is not so good), oh well, shoot me.... continuing, an easily adjustable tack line is paramount if you want decent, or better, performance. Fourth, your sails trim better with twings, Five never sail below 135 deg True, which is close to 90 deg Apparent or the wind will never stay attached, try to keep the tack as far forward as you can. There's more but I'm losing steam here.

Bowsprit, okay, here's something I tried, I attached a restraining cable from the stem to the middle of the pulpit, then clipped a fairlead to the tubing on the pulpit. The idea was to create an alternate to a sprit, the tackline running through the lead on the pulpit... Unbelievably it worked well. but the cable's angle from the stem was a little to obtuse and I could see the tubing lift a little and it wasn't even blowing that hard, so I, uh, decided to restrict that method to under 10 or 12 kts until I could bet a more robust support cable. But... I started getting lazy the last few years and find I just have fun without running to the foredeck. I still dream about one of those very cool Selden retractable bowsprits though... and I'll be 80 next year... so there's still time... if there's any value left in my retirement account that is.

 

[jssailem]

The pulpit turning block is turning less than 5 degrees. The block attached to the deck will turn 90 degrees and will need to deal with the forces.

If your racing and flying a spinnaker in winds beyond it’s rating

You are likely to experience sail failure before block failure.

 

[JRacer]

Mine is routed through a turning block attached at the base of the forestay (the bracket that the forestay is attached to that is bolted to the deck and down the bow). Not ideal as it isn't projected forward as I would like but it mostly works. Jibing is sometimes a challenge as the line and sail have some trouble getting around the bow pulpit. This setup will ultimately be replaced with a Selden bowsprit that can be deployed when needed to get the projection I desire. Tack line is run along the rail to the cockpit where it is cleated with a headknocker within reach of me and the crew.

 

[PaulK]

As @Davidasailor26 suggests, tacking an asym to the bow pulpit is not a good idea. It is not designed for that kind of load. The anchor roller is much stronger and better suited for the pull and shocks of an asym. It is also worth noting that even using the anchor roller the asym may not provide improved performance. In our PHRF area tacking an asym on your boat's bow roller would add 3 seconds to your All-Purpose (discance) rating and 9 seconds to your Windward/Leeward (shorter, round-the-buoys) rating. In other words, our PHRF Committee thinks an asym on your bow roller is slower than the standard symmetrical chute setup. You would need a sprit more than 2 feet long before our PHRF Committee started to think it was faster, and that would only be for distance races. Until you got to a sprit over 3' long you'd still be considered 3 seconds a mile slower with the asym on Windward/Leeward courses.