Arghhhhh. Lawyers......

[Maine Sail]

So I was trying to get one of the new Raymarine plotters to do radar overlay last night and no matter what kept getting "No Heading Data". For years I have set up Rayamrine, Garmin and some other brands to do radar overlay by using the internal GPS heading data.... Well, not anymore..!!:cussing:

It seems that one of Raymarine's competitors was sued because a customer hit something and blamed it on the "yaw" that you get between the radar which is fixed to the vessel and the yaw that the GPS sees where the land will move behind the radar at slow speeds or when you are being set by current. The radar is always on target, despite the plotter needing to catch up, but apparently this guy still sued.

So my rep at Raymarine tells me that allegedly everyone, Garmin, Simrad, Ray, Furuno, Lowrance etc. have all turned off the internal GPS as heading data for radar overlay because of this lawsuit. I have not seen it on Garmin yet

So now we have to use what can be MUCH LESS RELIABLE and MUCH LESS ACCURATE, an external fluxgate as a heading sensor, if we want to have radar overlay.

So I asked my rep what he thought the court case would look like when SCHMUCK B lays a bag of tools or another ferrous object next to his fluxgate and then bashes into something..... It is a LOT harder to trick a GPS heading than it is to trick a fluxgate compass in most boats.... Trust me I had to move a frying pan three weeks ago and hand the customer a $125.00 bill to do so... How's that radar overlay with the frying pan next to it working out for you...

Pretty soon we won't even have radar overlay if the SCHMUCKS and their LAWYERS have their way...:cussing::cussing::cussing::cussing::cussing:


Try telling a customer who just laid out 4K on a new plotter, dome and radar pole that he now needs an autopilot or a NEMA 2000 fluxgate heading sensor on TOP OF the additional few hundred in cabling and bus N2k/Seatalk Ng/Sea Talk HS to get his NEW Raymraine stuff just to talk to his OLD, yes last season is "OLD" Raymarine stuff........ But hey we boaters are rich right...

Oh and DO NOT upgrade older units to newer software if you already have overlay using COG.

 

[jviss]

I wouldn't blame the lawyers, at least not the lawyer who brought the suit; I'd blame the execs at Raymarine, et.al., for doing exactly what their litigation-averse lawyers tell them to do. They certainly weren't issued court orders to turn off that feature, and if they had balls, they would have left it on.

jv

 

[Ross]

Golly. And I still have to figure out where i am with a gps and a chart. I had no idea that so many more things were out there to screw up a simple cruise.

 

[Stu Jackson]

And then they come up with this: http://forums.catalina.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?t=143417

 

[Maine Sail]

I wouldn't blame the lawyers, at least not the lawyer who brought the suit; I'd blame the execs at Raymarine, et.al., for doing exactly what their litigation-averse lawyers tell them to do. They certainly weren't issued court orders to turn off that feature, and if they had balls, they would have left it on.

jv

Hmmm still comes down to laywers....

 

[Charlie Jones s/v Tehani]

Golly. And I still have to figure out where i am with a gps and a chart. I had no idea that so many more things were out there to screw up a simple cruise.

Me too. I just bought a brand new GPS- Garmin 76Cx, no chart chip. And I did 7000 miles last three years with a PLAIN Garmin 76, and paper.

 

[Benny17441]

I'm deeply disturbed but not surprised that all marine electronic manufacturers acted in unison in this matter. Sounds like a backroom deal to me, but not likely perpetrated in a smoke filled hotel room, but at the initiative of attorneys in teleconference calls. Everybody wins but the consumer.

 

[centerline]

And then they come up with this: http://forums.catalina.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?t=143417

my thoughts run fairly parallel with benny17441.... something seems amiss with all the collaboration to extinguish a decent nav system just when a new system comes out that is more expensive and promises to deliver you to your destination without all the hassle of plotting your course and manning the controls..... talk about a lawyers paradise!

 

[All U Get]

I would agree, something smells like low tide, didn't the computer giants get nailed for making this type of deal?
All U Get

 

[Maine Sail]

Me too. I just bought a brand new GPS- Garmin 76Cx, no chart chip. And I did 7000 miles last three years with a PLAIN Garmin 76, and paper.

Did you sail through stuff like this without radar? This was less than a 70' of vis...

Or like this? See if you can spot the sailboat in this one..

We could hear, see on radar & smell this guy but not see him until he was within 150'...

Radar overlay is a very NICE feature for those of us who often need to use radar to safely navigate...

 

[Chris Blubaugh]

hey, at least the boat was properly named!

 

[kenn]

I wouldn't blame the lawyers, at least not the lawyer who brought the suit;

I sure would. Bullsh!t litigation starts somewhere.

 

[lehighsail]

Don't know if its related, but I recently upgraded the software in my 3 year old Garmin 545. I also have the G2 card for NJ area. The unit will no longer plot a "autoguide to" route for any input in Barnegat Bay if there are shallower areas on or off of the route.
I guess skippers are no longer to be trusted to check their depths and courses. Yes, I think it is the fear of lititgation. Gotta go, I'm off to McDonalds for a lukewarm cup of coffee.

 

[Maine Sail]

hey, at least the boat was properly named!

That's why I snapped the shot!!

 

[centerline]

I sure would. Bullsh!t litigation starts somewhere.

lawyers will take on anything that will make THEM money... it has very little to do with the law or what is morally correct.... but it is directly about the money..... the Bast@rds. (and I mean that in the most vulgar and contemptuous sense of the word):cussing:

and notice how it was stated that it was a "competitor", without actually naming who..... and all of the other competitors can also say the exact same thing without actually saying who filed the suit or who got sued.... in a collaborative effort to make/force changes in the system, its so convenient to blame it on a possibly fictitious lawsuit... and no one can check out the real story behind the change.

I guess im just a rogue, cuz I dont believe all the sh!t they try to tell us when the changes seems to be lining their pockets....

 

[Maine Sail]

in a collaborative effort to make/force changes in the system, its so convenient to blame it on a possibly fictitious lawsuit... and no one can check out the real story behind the change.

I guess im just a rogue, cuz I dont believe all the sh!t they try to tell us when the changes seems to be lining their pockets....

And this is why I just got off the phone Ben, the owner of Panbo the marine electronics site.

He WILL get to the bottom of this and get more information than I could and will write an article about it.... Not sure that I buy what the Ray guy told me but either way I know you can't do radar overlay with any new Ray gear without an external heading sensor.

 

[jviss]

Why is the fluxgate compass much less reliable and much less

So now we have to use what can be MUCH LESS RELIABLE and MUCH LESS ACCURATE, an external fluxgate as a heading sensor, if we want to have radar overlay.

I have a technical question on this. I have limited practical experience with this, but I have looked into the technical details from time to time.

Why is the fluxgate compass much less reliable and much less accurate than the GPS heading data?

Please allow me to detail my question.

First, while GPS heading data may indeed be fast and accurate, it is not heading data. It is course over the ground data. The GPS heading info does not know where the head of the vessel is pointed. You could be making 5 kt. sideways and none forward, and the GPS will tell you the 'head' is the direction you are going. So, in a case where you are traveling with significant influence of current, such as just about anywhere around where I sail - Buzzards Bay, Vineyard Sound, Rhode Island Sound, Block Island Sound, etc. - your GPS heading will almost always be wrong as 'heading' information. For example, if you're making 5 kt. through the water,i.e., aligned with the boat's head, and there's a 1 kt current on your beam, your GPS heading, i.e., COG, will be off by 11º. And, that won't be 'rolling' back and forth, it will be a constant error, and in disagreement with the radar image. No? As you point out, the radar remains looking ahead.

Second, it is my understanding that the fluxgate compass in the Raymarine system, when used with a Smartpilot autopilot, or the standalone smart heading sensor, provides very fast, very accurate, gyro-stabilized heading information. In addition, the smart heading sensor calibration capabilities are extensive, and allow for corrections for deviation, and even alignment with GPS heading during calibration (in cases where the two should agree, of course).

I would think that the fluxgate compass based heading information is the correct and preferred heading information to use for radar overlays.

Summary of contrary assertion: under the influence of a cross current, GPS heading information used for radar overlays will be incorrect, potentially by a lot. Gyro-stabilized fluxgate compass heading information is much preferred.

 

[kenn]

I would think that the fluxgate compass based heading information is the correct and preferred heading information to use for radar overlays.

Summary of contrary assertion: under the influence of a cross current, GPS heading information used for radar overlays will be incorrect, potentially by a lot.

Interesting point. Ideally, both would be useful (where your boat's pointed, where it's actually going), if the information could be displayed in a clear, non-confusing way.

It would be possible to make a small, inexpensive microcontroller-based box to take the GPS heading (or derive it), and disguise it as a compass heading. I won't describe this any further for fear of being sued.

 

[Stu Jackson]

...Ideally, both would be useful (where your boat's pointed, where it's actually going), if the information could be displayed in a clear, non-confusing way.

This is a continuing misunderstanding, 'cuz where the bow is pointed is what your mechanical compass and fluxgate are showing, but it is not the COG.

It seems to me that the GPS which shows COG (NOT boat heading) is a better tool to use to have with overlaid radar. Which is the concern originally posted.

This also goes back to jvss's Reply #17. We had a looong discussion about this a month or so ago and kinda "agreed" that definitions of headings between the traditional boat heading (which way the bow is pointed which is only what your compass can tell you) and "heading" on GPS (COG) are two different things.

 

[Maine Sail]

I have a technical question on this. I have limited practical experience with this, but I have looked into the technical details from time to time.

Why is the fluxgate compass much less reliable and much less accurate than the GPS heading data?

Please allow me to detail my question.

First, while GPS heading data may indeed be fast and accurate, it is not heading data. It is course over the ground data. The GPS heading info does not know where the head of the vessel is pointed. You could be making 5 kt. sideways and none forward, and the GPS will tell you the 'head' is the direction you are going. So, in a case where you are traveling with significant influence of current, such as just about anywhere around where I sail - Buzzards Bay, Vineyard Sound, Rhode Island Sound, Block Island Sound, etc. - your GPS heading will almost always be wrong as 'heading' information. For example, if you're making 5 kt. through the water,i.e., aligned with the boat's head, and there's a 1 kt current on your beam, your GPS heading, i.e., COG, will be off by 11º. And, that won't be 'rolling' back and forth, it will be a constant error, and in disagreement with the radar image. No? As you point out, the radar remains looking ahead.

Second, it is my understanding that the fluxgate compass in the Raymarine system, when used with a Smartpilot autopilot, or the standalone smart heading sensor, provides very fast, very accurate, gyro-stabilized heading information. In addition, the smart heading sensor calibration capabilities are extensive, and allow for corrections for deviation, and even alignment with GPS heading during calibration (in cases where the two should agree, of course).

I would think that the fluxgate compass based heading information is the correct and preferred heading information to use for radar overlays.

Summary of contrary assertion: under the influence of a cross current, GPS heading information used for radar overlays will be incorrect, potentially by a lot. Gyro-stabilized fluxgate compass heading information is much preferred.

In a "perfect world" the fluxgate would be ideal but sadly we don't live in a perfect world and the fluxgate on "many boats" is VERY TOUGH to calibrate accurately and can get sent out of whack VERY easily depending upon location in the boat. They are not like a fixed mount compass where you can easily adjust the compensators so "accurate" on one point of sail may be spot on but off by many degrees on another point of sail.

I have sailed Maine for years, where we also have very strong currents, and the GPS heading data works well enough. I don't expect it to be perfect just a "nice to compare to". I would not expect it to be perfect with a fluxgate either, but apparently some do.

In speaking with Ben this morning, and discussing just this very point, he said the ONLY heading device he has found accurate was a $2000.00 satellite based N2K heading sensor. I also have rategyro and fluxgate info but still prefer my GPS heading data over the fluxgate/gyro for the reason I mentioned.. My compasses are also professionally swung to be as good as they can be but there is still error.

That said if a boat owner does not have an AP or an AP with rate gyro then they will have to now buy a fluxgate or other heading sensor on-top of the price of the radar and plotter. That is my main frustration...