Appropriate amount of headstay sag?

[Davidasailor26]

Your mention of the sail's age/use and three pictures showing the luff pretty eased brings to mind the possibility that 'easing the luff bolt rope' will result in better shape and control. 'Easing the luff bolt rope' is not the same as easing luff tension. In the last several months I've eased the luff bolt rope on 4 older mains and a jib, and the effect was substantial each time. Turns out bolt ropes shrink rapidly up to a point with age/use, such that (a) the rope tensions before full hoist, (b) tension on the halyard and/or Cunningham has less (possibly negligible) effect on draft position, and (c) the luff deveops myriad small wrinkles. Easing the luff bolt rope involves removing a little stitching at the tack and any reef points. It's a DIY thing but it seems most ask a sailmaker to do it.

Thanks. Interesting point that I might need to check out this winter.

It looks like you could move the jib cars forward to me. Too much draft at the head compared to the foot for my boat for sure.

I agree there’s lots of draft up there and the top always breaks first when I luff. But the cars are already pretty forward; definitely pulling more down than back.

In the past when I tried pushing them even further forward it was hard to get any pull on the lower part of the sail at all.

 

[Don Guillette]

Thanks. Interesting point that I might need to check out this winter.



I agree there’s lots of draft up there and the top always breaks first when I luff. But the cars are already pretty forward; definitely pulling more down than back.
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In the past when I tried pushing them even further forward it was hard to get any pull on the lower part of the sail at all.

The ideal is to have the sail break evenly from top to bottom. If the foot flutters, bottom luffs or bottom telltails break first - move the lead aft. If the leech flutters, top luffs or top telltails break first - move the lead forward. Do you have telltails?

 

[Davidasailor26]

The ideal is to have the sail break evenly from top to bottom. If the foot flutters, bottom luffs or bottom telltails break first - move the lead aft. If the leech flutters, top luffs or top telltails break first - move the lead forward. Do you have telltails?

Yes, we have three sets of telltales, so we can easily see the difference at different heights from twist. It seems like even with the car very far forward, with the sheet pointed very high, much higher than bisecting the leech/foot angle, the top windward telltale breaks way before the bottom. This is true even when the sheet is putting so much tension on the leech that it’s closing in. Not sure if it’s the cut of the sail or the way it’s stretched over time.

 

[Don Guillette]

David: OK, I didn't see them in the picture. With all the sail trim controls for the main and jib together with the various settings for each point of sail and wind conditions the 2 items I never messed with was headstay sag and mastbend. I had a nice backstay adjuster Garhauer gave me but I treated it like fancy hub caps on a car - they looked nice but didn't do anything. I couldn't bend the Catalina 30 mast if I wanted to - all I could do was rack it and that created more problems. I'd concentrate on getting 100% efficiency out of all my controls before messing with head stay sag.

 

[StuartSailor]

When I was growing up sailing... the sail makers made a big deal out of adjusting the luff sag to work with the boats head stay sag. Some boats are softer and the head stay can only get so tight. I am not a sail maker so I cannot quantify how much they can alow for. I know that a "nip and tuck" was common sail maintenance, but these days the mantra seems to be "you need new sails"! It seems like the average sailor can't get a sailmaker to go sailing anymore.

 

[jssailem]

It seems like the average sailor can't get a sailmaker to go sailing anymore.

When your dealing with a sailmaker on the other side of the planet because it is cheaper, the friendly local loft has a difficult time providing assistance.

Make a friend with the local loft. Buy your sails from a local loft. Then when you need his/her expertise they won't be 10,000 miles away.

 

[StuartSailor]

I agree with you, but so many sailors have boats that came with sails. I don't think you should have to have locally made sails to be able to hire a sail maker for a consult. I know the local lofts, if you are lucky enough to have one, work on thin margins, but I would never expect them to work for free. Maybe if I was sailing a full suit of sails they built, but not for normal service work.

 

[jssailem]

Maybe you just need to engage them.

I had a storm jib that was aging and needed some help.

I had met a loft manager at a boat rendezvous earlier in the year. It was early morning all the boat owners were in their bunks and he was searching for a place to get a cup of coffee. I told him if he did the grinding I'd make the coffee. We had a great chat about sails and his background.

Several months went by, when I called him and chatted about the storm sail he perked up and remembered the coffee. He wanted to sell me a new one. I told him I thought the cloth was still good and a couple of minor repairs were needed. I agreed if he felt the cloth was dead we would talk about a new sail. He did the repairs. The cost was a faction of a sail replacement. He agreed the cloth still had life and would serve the purpose intended. He offered a bit of surprise that the sail was in good condition. I guess few sailors take their sails down and store them in a dry, pest free space when not being used.

It helps to meet these folks before you need them. Additionally, to seek their help when they are not in high demand.

 

[shemandr]

A good way to get the best from a sailmaker is to have a relationship. Over time I believe this can be cost effective. And I’m not talking about having to use a major loft. There are local lofts, sometime franchises, which can deliver modern technology and personal service. If you are campaigning a boat the major lofts are always wanting your business. If you are club level the local guy could be your best choice.