Anyone know what this is? De-lamination and unusual "red" material (under cabin) inside "bilge" area

[Carl Wonderful]

Hello all.

1971 Cataline 22

I'm worried that some of this might be a really bad sign or tell me something bad about this boat I just bought a few months ago The rest of the boat looks really good for a 1971 boat...and there's no signs of any damage on the outside of the hull or under the hull. It actually looks really nice! I am in the process of taking the boat off the trailer to take the keel off soon..but all looks good outside and under the boat from what I can see.

Please don't speculate and scare me, lol, wheep..... I've put so much time, money and work into this boat already. If anyone has actual experience with any of this I'd love to hear about it to understand what I'm actually looking at. I posted the outside photos so you can see the outside of the hull.

So Ive tried finding something similar and cant get any solid info. Lots of people speculate, but I cant find anyone who can really help me understand what I'm looking at and whether the de-lamination is a serious problem or more cosmetic OR just the nature of a boat that is 55 years old. Also no idea what the red is?

The photos of the red material is from looking under the v berth opening, looking back to the aft of the boat.
The other photos are from the inside of the side berths.

1. Is this de-lamination a problem?
2. Was this something the original owner did that didn't "stick"..and its just coming apart?
3. Is the de-laminating at the connections from the original manufacturer fiberglass? Is there a reason to connect the deck to the hull inside...? Is it to just connect things to route the water that gets in..or is it actually structural?
3 What is the RED material that runs down the center or the ("bilge" area, (top of the hull), under the cabin)? (Photos are looking under the v berth, looking aft down the center of the boat)
4. Can anyone explain why some areas of fiberglass look white, others cardboard colored, others grey?


Thanks everyone!!

 

[dlochner]

What you are thinking is delamination is the tabbing separating and cracking. This is not as serious as delamination, but needs to be fixed.

The tabbing holds the parts of the boat together. A typical place to find cracked tabbing is at the base of bulkheads, which is where it appears to be from your photos. The bulkheads work to support the deck and mast, transmit rigging loads to the hull, and to keep the sides of the hull from moving towards the centerline.

The repair is pretty straightforward, tear out all the old tabbing, clean and use a degreaser, sand, and lay up a couple of layers of glass and epoxy to bond the bulkhead to the hull.

One of the best sources of information on fiberglass repair is Andy Miller's YouTube channel BoatWorksToday. Another excellent source is free technical manual on the West System Epoxy website.

 

[Steve_Catalina]

Catalina22.org the international group site for your boat. Good luck

 

[Carl Wonderful]

What you are thinking is delamination is the tabbing separating and cracking. This is not as serious as delamination, but needs to be fixed.

The tabbing holds the parts of the boat together. A typical place to find cracked tabbing is at the base of bulkheads, which is where it appears to be from your photos. The bulkheads work to support the deck and mast, transmit rigging loads to the hull, and to keep the sides of the hull from moving towards the centerline.

The repair is pretty straightforward, tear out all the old tabbing, clean and use a degreaser, sand, and lay up a couple of layers of glass and epoxy to bond the bulkhead to the hull.

One of the best sources of information on fiberglass repair is Andy Miller's YouTube channel BoatWorksToday. Another excellent source is free technical manual on the West System Epoxy website.

I didn't realize there was "tabbing"..I get it now, makes sense. Also got some good books that tell more about it all. So is the tabbing just a series of thin layers/strips of fiberglass that Catalina put in 55 years ago...and is just coming apart for some reason now? Maybe water freezing and thawing? or just old age? It wouldn't be from a very serious grounding or violent collision or something, right?

Can you explain more about the bulkheads. I hear a lot of about them, but still do not understand. On the C22 is there just 2 bulkheads, being the 2 vertical plywood boards that are in between/separate the v berth and the rest of the cabin? And they go all the way down to touch the hull and walls and are fiber glassed to everything.... Do I have this right?

Do you have any idea what all RED is that runs down the center of the boat? Very curious... Also little worried that is was something the PO did to try to fix that he tore off the bottom of the boat or something crazy!? Just paranoid about it because it seems strange.

Thanks!!!!

 

[shemandr]

Bulkheads stiffen the structure of the hull. Forgive me if I am repeating what you already know. But the raw fiberglass hull would be quite flexible after it comes out of the mold. When the deck, which is stiffened with the laminate/core structure, is attached to the hull it makes the hull much more rigid. Bulkheads add to that rigidity.
In the building process they are typically bonded to the hull before the deck is laid on because it is just easier. But the tabbing of the bulkheads is a significant structural component of the hull structure.
So you should re-tab the areas that have separated. You may think how a relatively small area of re-tabbing could be significant. I think it's because the major loads are born by the stuctural strength of the bulkheads and other components and the tabbing is just a way to anchor those components.
I have no idea about the red.
I once freaked out when I saw red color through the hull in my Ranger 29. Turns out the hull fiberglass was fairly translucent and the red I saw was the red gel coat/ paint on the hull topsides.

 

[dlochner]

didn't realize there was "tabbing"..I get it now, makes sense. Also got some good books that tell more about it all. So is the tabbing just a series of thin layers/strips of fiberglass that Catalina put in 55 years ago...and is just coming apart for some reason now?

Yes, tabbing is just 2 or 3 strips of fiberglass and resin bonding the bulkhead to the hull. Usually the strips go up about 3-4" up the bulkhead and the same down on to the hull. They might be a bit longer on some boats.

Why did the tabbing separate? It's a good question. First understand how the boat is built. The hull is laid up with resin and glass and allowed to cure. The interior is then installed and this is when the bulkheads are tabbed. Finally the deck and cabin headliner are installed. Resins have 2 types of bonding, chemical and adhesive, sometimes referred to as primary bonds and secondary bonds. Primary bonds occur when resin is initially curing as when the hull is laid up, each layer of laminate is applied before the layer before it has fully cured. The layers then bond as one structure. Secondary bonds occur when a layer of glass and resin are applied to cured resin. Primary bonds are stronger than secondary bonds. Polyester resin has strong primary bonds and weaker secondary bonds. Compared to epoxy, the primary bonds are about equal, but secondary bonds with epoxy are stronger than polyester secondary bonds. That's why epoxy is generally favored over polyester resin for repair work.

So why did the tabbing separate from the hull? Age can be a factor, it's a weak bond and eventually it just failed. Or it could have been poor surface preparation, or to little resin was applied, or the resin might have been old or poorly catalyzed. Other reasons might include improper storage on the trailer, too much hull flexing, sudden impacts from grounding, normal wear and tear from being trailered over rough roads, who knows? It is difficult to pinpoint a reason with a close inspection of the boat.

 

[colemj]

Until polyester is air-inhibited, it will still make primary chemical bonds on subsequent layups. Tabbing is usually done during this stage, so those bonds are not weaker per se. However, poor preparation or dirty work area can prevent chemical bonding.

The red thing is a mystery. The pictures don't have a lot of context or perspective, but it looks like a red length of Trex board or some similar pre-formed piece stuck in there. It doesn't look like it was formed in place as part of a layup, and I can't imagine what type of repair that would represent, or what it would do in such a repair. It also doesn't look like it was installed as a flat support in the hull vee for a subfloor to sit on.

Is it brittle and hard? Can you gouge it? Chip it? What does it taste like?

Mystery to me.

Mark

 

[Carl Wonderful]

Until polyester is air-inhibited, it will still make primary chemical bonds on subsequent layups. Tabbing is usually done during this stage, so those bonds are not weaker per se. However, poor preparation or dirty work area can prevent chemical bonding.

The red thing is a mystery. The pictures don't have a lot of context or perspective, but it looks like a red length of Trex board or some similar pre-formed piece stuck in there. It doesn't look like it was formed in place as part of a layup, and I can't imagine what type of repair that would represent, or what it would do in such a repair. It also doesn't look like it was installed as a flat support in the hull vee for a subfloor to sit on.

Is it brittle and hard? Can you gouge it? Chip it? What does it taste like?

Mystery to me.

Mark

So you think that tabbing was from the factory...55 years ago? Guess it could have been like that for a year...or 20 years huh?

Whats Trex board?

The red thing seems almost like it was poured in or something. It is about a foot wide at the widest point and probably goes 5 or 7 feet through the center of the boat. The photos are from looking down in the bow, v berth opening...and the red starts there and runs to the aft of the boat...under the cabin walkway.. It feel like very hard plastic or epoxy?. Id imagine it tastes like what I think Rumplestiltskin smels like?

 

[LakeShark]

@Carl Wonderful so @dlochner is correct in that what you're seeing is the tabbing in the hull. Like has been stated it brakes over time with trailering etc. It's actually not as structural as it would be in most boats as the Catalina 22 is built differently. That tabbing holds the inner hull liner into place. Normal boats would have a hull, some sort of ply, more glass, and then the finished inner hull. Frank Butler in his bid to build the affordable family daysailer changed the way boats were built for its day. The outer hull is relatively thin and the woven mat is what you see from the inner side with the checkered pattern on it. It is only accessed from the hatches. The hull liner then goes in place, is tabbed down, and the top deck is placed on the boat. During your build year Catalina was pumping out almost 100 boats a week if I remember correctly. Because of this there are lots of variations in resin, and tabbing attachment in hulls. If your liner is starting to flex too much then do as other have said. Mix a bit of epoxy and stiffen the tabbing back up. Not too difficult of a job if you dont mind being messy.

Now onto the red stuff. It appears as though someone added some filler or epoxy at some point. Could have been to stiffen the liner floor or who knows. It's really not an issue as it's not a structural component. just an oddity.

Now as for the Bulkheads. The C22 bullkheads are not tabbed into the fiberglass at all like a normal off shore boat would be. They are attached with screws to the liner and the liner is bolstered underneath toward the hull in places. Bulkheads are a common place of rot unfortunately but since they are not glassed into place on your boat there easy to remove, cut new ones, and reinstall should the time ever arise. There are numerous threads on this forum about replacing them.

In the end you may be scaring yourself looking for issues where they dont exist. In your hull year the hulls were thinner, the boats more flexible, and faster. Racers today seek out hull numbers in the sub 100 range for this very reason. I have seen some of the early hulls and trust me there are some real head scratchers in there. But most of them are still sailing hard today. Whether you repair what you have first or use the boat it does not look like your hull will fail, leak, or collapse if you try and use it. Have you tried sailing it yet and does the hull make odd crunchy noises when you walk around? If all you hear is the humm of the keel cable then you're likely good. These little 22s are resilient and a joy to own. Hope that helps.

PS good plan to do the keel cable maintenance but if going that far plan to replace the pivot pin, turning ball, volcano tube, and the winch if you still have the skinny old style drum. The Tech manual form the Catalina 22 National sailing Assiociation has information and pictures on all of this. Also if you want more about the history of your boat and like to read check out this book put together by a friend of mine Rich Fox.

Catalina 22 Download Files

www.catalina22.org