Any buying tips?

Bad Obsession · Oct 12, 2012

Survey, Survey, SURVEY! That is my best advise. Anything that is a major issue will stick out like a sore thumb. After that a good survey will get you on the right path.

This post is on the Catalina 30 page so I am guessing that you are looking at Catalina 30? You should be able to find a descent 30 foot Catalina 30 for 20K.

Ideally you want to find one with the M25XP diesel engine. You may be able to find a MKii in the price range too.

They are made in tall rigs and standard rigs. If you sail in an area where there are light winds you probably want the tall rig. This has a bow sprit on it and a slightly taller mast.

If you are limited in depth you may consider a wing keel. The draft is 3'10" on a wing keel. If you aren't worried about draft then a 5' fin keel is probably a better sailing boat.

rbmcintire · Oct 12, 2012

Rich,

I think you'll find a good value in a Catalina. There are some great owners who've shared quite a bit of detailed information right here on this forum. It really is worth it, to research every page, to get the nuances in the rig/engine/hull issues. Go to the Catalina 30 Association website, read the tech library. Look into the "Catalina Smile" and bilge plywood issues to have a reference and an informed view when you do finally get a survey. Look for cracks around the base and ceiling at the compression post. Look for brown streaks or water marks in the cabin or on cushions indicating leaks, particularly near the chainplates.

Google "boat inspection checklists" or survey forms/ procedures. Earlier boats will have greater potential for problems obviously, but if you find one that had a meticulous owner, you may get yourself a gem. If you're a coastal sailor, get the M-25 or the M-25XP diesels. Condition and upgrades are key value drivers. A boat with marine air-conditioning, or new sails, or new electronics, or new standing rigging is money you won't have to spend in doing those things. Do research on replacing those items to see what I mean. BUT, put those things in perspective in relation to the deck's and hull's structural condition, the purchase price and the TOTAL cost to get the boat to where you want it. You might have heard the old joke, where the most expensive boat an owner ever had, was one that he had gotten for free...Evaluate if you're a do-it-yourselfer or if you need to pay up for a nicer boat (or even a smaller, nearly new boat). Good Luck, you'll find your boat eventually, it's still a buyer's market, IMHO.

Rob

DanM · Oct 12, 2012

Rich,

I bought the nicest '85 tall rig I could find in my area (there were 14 for sale at the time as I remember) and the one thing I wouldn't do over again is buy a boat that has plywood in the bilge construction. I think Catalina stopped doing that somewhere in the '87 boats, but I could be wrong.

I love to work on stuff, but if I were to do it over again I would have moved my budget up slightly for a newer boat since I ended up spending time and money getting everything squared away on an older boat anyway. The upside of course is that I know my boat very, very well now.

I used a reputable surveyor and I knew of a couple of problems that the boat had that I was looking at (bank required the survey), and he didn't even mention some things that are well documented on the C30 (starboard bulkhead, compression block rot, plywood in the bilge construction). I feel like I paid him $250 to give me and the bank a glossy report on the boat much like most "home appraisals". Nice big disclaimer that he didn't inspect the engine or rig which didn't bother the bank. I guess my point is on a 25 year old boat that has well documented issues that you might pay 10-25k on, how much are you willing to pay for a survey that is probably just going to tell you that you're buying an old boat with some issues? I do think it would probably be worth the money though to have an engine survey done though, repowering would really turn an old boat into a money pit if you wanted to sell it soon after repowering it.

Good luck on your search!

DanM.

mortyd · Oct 12, 2012

yeah, big buying tip. find out how much it will cost you to maintain an older 30 foot sailboat, and do a thorough job of finding out.

Stu Jackson · Oct 12, 2012

Rich Bough said:
1. I'm knowledgeable enough to know that they don't paint hoses from the factory.

2. Question...I understand there is some impeller that I need to have a careful eye on, but I have no idea of what to look for.

3. I've also read stories about keel separation problems.

4. Is there a way to tell anything about the steering mechanics that are below the cockpit? Is there a test?

5. How about a test for the transmission and drive shaft assembly?

6. When a "bottom job" has been done, what all is done? Just paint?

7. Is steering linkage covered and inspected? Is it kinda like watching for play in the steering wheel of a car for linkage problems?
Thanks for your tips guys, and keep 'em flowing!
Rich

1. The factory sprayed everything. If the boat's newer it may have the original factory sprayed hoses. Which means it's time to replace the hoses. If new paint, someone may be covering something up or just chose to do it. Old hoses are soft. Check them out.

2. The impeller is on the raw water pump if there is an M25 series freshwater cooled (heat exchanger) diesel engine in it. Many C30s came with the smaller and older raw water cooled engines (NOT M25 series engines). If you want to know about raw water pumps on diesel engines, or anything about the M25 series engines, go to www.marinedieseldirect.com for the engine. We also have a lot of M25 series engine information here:

http://www.c34.org/wiki/index.php?title=Diesel_Engine

I just had a friend who is buying a new to him 1987 C34 and he got an engine survey separate from the boat survey. Given the questions you're asking, you should, too.

3. Keel separation is called the Catalina smile. Here's a BIG job description:
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
Catalina smile repair: http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,6842.0.html

Keel & post: http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,6752.0.html click Rick's link

and http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,3381.0.html

Critical upgrades include a number of posts regarding the wiring harness, so read all three pages: http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,5078.0.html

4. Steering - should be part of the boat survey. www.edsonmarine.com

5. Transmission - part of the engine survey

6. Bottom job could be just paint or a complete removal of everything down to the gelcoat and then a new barrier coat and new bottom paint.

7. Steering - see 4.

Here's one of the best reviews I've seen, posted right here on this forum years ago: http://forums.sbo.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?t=102541

You're asking a lot of good questions, but are also asking for 35 years of C30 experience, which is hard to give in a forum.

Lots of good advice here. The www.catalina30.com site is a valuable tool.

Good luck. Happy hunting.
[/FONT][/FONT]

Stu Jackson · Oct 12, 2012

Rich Bough said:
A late question...what can be expected out of an engine as far as total run hours before its time for a rebuild? 500? 2,000? With a car that is an American built, you can reasonably expect problems to start occurring around 100,000 miles, is it the same for a boat? How many hours can be expected? Is that a silly question? Am I totally wrong?
Rich.

General average is 100 hours per year, some do 200 (we do). It's not the hours, it's the care given to the engine. See if there are records of maintenance (I track everything). Get an engine survey.

rbmcintire · Oct 12, 2012

A survey should include motoring out, sailing the boat, returning to a marina, and hoisting the hull out of the water. You won't get an oil analysis or a cylinder compression test from a regular surveyor. If you're really liking a boat, then go get an engine tech to dive into it. Negotiate on purchase price if this is possible to offset the cost. Also, a seller might actually split the cost if he could retain the document, if you pass on the boat. Advertising a boat as "recently surveyed" attracts buyers not wanting to arrange for their own survey. If you're serious about buying a boat, read Nigel Calder's book, Boatowner's Mechanical and Electrical Maintenance BEFORE you buy. It'll be the cheapest boat money you'll ever spend. Even if you don't do the work yourself, you need to understand your systems. You'll understand what you're seeing during boat hunting, in addition to: what's quality and what's BS.

Rob

Team118 · Oct 12, 2012

Rich;

Always count on Stu to give you good advice with internet references to boot.

I will tell you that I had a Catalina 22 for over 6 years and wanted to upgrade.

I happened to randomly find a 1977 Catalina 30 for sale at a dealer in the area. The boat had been sitting on its cradle for almost 2 years and the price had gone from $19,000 to $12,500. The owner had done a survey and they let me look through it. Since everything was original, the survey pointed out issues with hoses reaching their end life, single clamps as opposed to double clamps. Sails were original, there was some water saturation to top deck core which came about because the stanchions, cleats, etc were no longer sealed to the deck.

I ended up getting the boat for about $9,000, replaced the rudder for about $1,400 including labor, plunked her in the water and motored her 5 hours home. Talk about trial by fire. After another $5,000 in wiring, LED lights, engine panels, AC/DC panels, hoses, through hulls, toilets, etc. I am pretty happy with the boat.

She is still a 35 year old boat. I am sure there is compression post problems and I KNOW the plywood between the keel and the hull is probably rotted. The sails are starting to reach the end of the line, the life lines are stretched out and I would like to replace the shrouds, and chain plates...but is it worth it. I'm starting to get the itch to go bigger....probably best to let the next guy figure it out.

I'm only saying that because Dan M makes a good point. If you're reasonably versed in repairs and maintainence and the survey is going to tell you things about an old boat, is it worth it? I would think that if the boat is at least sea worthy (floats) then everything else should fall in place...IF you look at it as buying a 20-35 year vehicle AND understand that it will be far from perfect.

The only thing that scared me was the engine, if this had been bad, I knew it was my major weakness and I would have been screwed. I lucked out...and that is probably not the best way to buy a boat...via luck!

Good luck!
Chris

I also check Yachtworld all the time. Not saying you should buy your boat there, but it gives you a good idea of price by year and usually includes lots of pictures.

DanM · Oct 12, 2012

Rich,

My '85 (the last one built #4328 the next one is an '86) has the Universal M18 and had many of the hoses painted "Universal Gold". I've replaced most of them, but not unusual to see the gold paint on the original engines and their accessories (including hoses).

My Universal parts distributer tells me that it's not unusual for him to do maintenance on a M18 (the two cylinder predecessor to the M25) that has 5000 hours on it. I'm meticulous about maintenance and keep a log, but even I don't keep receipts for small ticket items like oil and filter changes. You'd have to trust my log... a bit different than a car I guess. I have no current reason to believe that my well maintained Universal M18 has over 1000 hours on it... I can document about 900 of them, it probably has many more and is running very well.

Plywood in the bilge would be my prime consideration... looks like that might be hull number 5397or so, but I'd take that hull number with a grain of salt; I'd look closely at anything in that ball park. That would be high on my list to avoid now that I know what I know, however.

The engine survey (and rig) would almost certainly be extra, or on top of the hull survey. My experience was that for the well informed buyer of a C30 (and there is tons of information out there about them!) the survey was a check in the box for the bank. The engine survey (which I didn't do and probably would do if I bought another boat) would have been not required by the bank or the insurance company but would have been wise of me to do. I was lucky that I bought a boat with a well maintained engine.

Let us know how the hunt is going!

DanM.

rbmcintire · Oct 12, 2012

Ha, "preying". Freudian slip. You should be able to negotiate a fair, reasonable deal. There are some nice C-30's out there and even more that we see here on these Catalina forums. The company and these owners are exactly what you need, regarding support. We are nuts about our boats. That factor made the difference when I chose which boat to go after.

Look for that OCD owner, or the "loaded" 80's unit with the cared-for diesel and then deal with the bilge/comp. post support ply as a known and negotiated issue. You will not make money on this deal in the end, and you will spend a decent amount of money overall, but meanwhile you might, more likely than not, will gain a new perspective on many other things (Poseidon, et al). The journey has to run its course, before you reach your destination.

Rob

P.S. Just kidding on Poseidon. Triton is da true kine.

Stu Jackson · Oct 13, 2012

One other thing: be prepared to cry. Really. Unless you only deal with yachtworld type or checks, you will eventually be presented with a boat that has been sadly neglected. You WILL cry when you see some of these, which will most likely be presented "as is". Many of us have spent a year or more looking for what eventually became "our boat" (in my case, twice, in 1987 for a Catalina 25, and in 1997-8 for our current ten 12 year old boat). In both cases we saw some horrible, scary and depressing examples of what the PO thought were "improvements" which sent us into the three or four stages of grief. Very disappointing, but then, when you find "your boat" you will KNOW it's the right one. How? You'll leave the first viewing of it with this sh*t-eating BIG GRIN on your face.

Happy hunting.

fox islander · Oct 14, 2012

I searched for the right C30 for a year, traveling from Portland, OR to Bellingham, WA. Beware internet photos...they usually make the boat look better than it really is. I was also amazed at the number of boats with really poor quality owner "improvements". Also, if you end up buying from a broker...dont use the surveyor he recommends. You need a fully independent 3rd party surveyor. That being said...the right boat IS out there...be patient. -bueno suerte

jrowan · Oct 14, 2012

As far as Nigel Calder's book, that is primarilly for repair work, once U already own your boat. I would instead recommend Don Casey's "Inspecting the Aging Sailboat" as a great reference guide prior to purchase. It has several very helpful checklists to go over when viewing the prospective Catalina. If buying the boat for cash, I would put my money into hiring a diesel marine mechanic to perform a compression test & examination of the engine, as this is the biggest expense item, & will break the bank if its worn out from neglect. Get a rubber hammer & sound all of the decks listening for dull thud sounds of rotted wood core. I would not buy any boat without a sea/sail trial, & instead of wasting money on an incomplete survey, spend it on a short haul out to inspect the hull to keel joint for the Catalina smile or hull damage. C 30's built after 1979 have upgraded S.S. keel bolts & beefed up chain plate hardware & upgraded rudder. The later the model year, the better the refinements. I would stay clear of neglected Atomic 4 "bombs" & my 5411 engine is somewhat underpowered for a 10k weight boat. Good luck & enjoy the hunt - my favorite part of boat ownership.