[ANSWERED] Pre-purchase Partial Survey Guidance, evidence of hard grounding?

[khanman22]

Hi there. I'm hoping someone can provide me additional guidance on a survey on a 2000 Hunter 340 I'm looking to purchase. I'm new to the sailing world so any help would be greatly appreciated. I have 3 pictures sent to me from my surveyor and hoping you kind folks can tell me 1) they'd walk away or 2) it's no big deal.

Thanks for your help!

Here's the list of main issues, see attachments for pics.

• some damage to the bulkhead tabbing noted under the port settee
• Crack noted in fiberglass in the aft section of the keel sump/ bilge
• Obvious repair work noted in the main bilge sump

 

[Don S/V ILLusion]

Hard to state a judgment based only on a few pictures.

Many of us have gone aground. Few result in damage and then, the repair can be better than the original construction. However, we can’t tell from pictures.

Absent additional evidence, we are just expressing uninformed opinion. The fundamental question is whether you want to take internet advice from strangers on which to base a purchase decision. I know what I would (not) do...

 

[dmax]

Yeah - defnitely hit something with the keel. Look at the forward tip of the keel for evidence of hitting something. If those two keel bolts in the picture are the stern-most, that is evidence of hitting the tip of the keel and it trying to "hinge" fore and aft at the keel hull joint. Generally, this can all be fixed so it's just a matter of money.

 

[khanman22]

Thanks for the quick reply dmax. Yes, it is stern-most. I did not complete the full survey, which included the short haul to look at the exterior of the keel, yet. With that said, the current owner is getting a repair estimate for the crack next to the keel bolts. I'm just unsure if it's reasonable to buy a boat knowing it has these cracks and potentially needing repairs pre-purchase. I understand it's a decision I need to make--I'm just collecting opinions from everyone at this point to help me make a more informed decision.

Yeah - defnitely hit something with the keel. Look at the forward tip of the keel for evidence of hitting something. If those two keel bolts in the picture are the stern-most, that is evidence of hitting the tip of the keel and it trying to "hinge" fore and aft at the keel hull joint. Generally, this can all be fixed so it's just a matter of money.

 

[dmax]

It all depends on who does the work. I once had an O'Day 302, which had a flaw in the keel shoe implementation where the design called for six layers of fiberglass and the builder only put in two (O'Day was farming out the hull build). A soft grounding resulted in the keel breaking the shoe and falling off. The guys that fixed it did an excellent job and it was much stronger than the original - I sailed it for many years after that. It is a lot for your first boat but if you can make sure it is fixed by someone who has done it before then it shouldn't be a problem.

 

[Rich Stidger]

My first inclination is to walk. YMMV. However I have a friend with a Hunter 44 that suffered a hard grounding a couple years ago and just last year found tabs separating from the bulkheads. There were no cracks in the hull or near the keel bolts. All is repaired now and I was told it looks like first class work. Bottom line was cost north of 6K. Fortunately insurance covered a big chunk of the cost.

I would pay close attention to your surveyor, assuming you have good confidence in him/her. Any opinions you read here are, well, just opinions.

 

[khanman22]

It all depends on who does the work. I once had an O'Day 302, which had a flaw in the keel shoe implementation where the design called for six layers of fiberglass and the builder only put in two (O'Day was farming out the hull build). A soft grounding resulted in the keel breaking the shoe and falling off. The guys that fixed it did an excellent job and it was much stronger than the original - I sailed it for many years after that. It is a lot for your first boat but if you can make sure it is fixed by someone who has done it before then it shouldn't be a problem.

Thanks again dmax! The other data point is the price we settled on is probably on the high, if not the highest price of all H340s on the market in the area. It's in excellent condition other than the issues I posted about. So, would it be reasonable to ask for repair work to be completed at the current owners cost and also re-negotiate the sale price down? I am not sure how this type of repair/damage would influence current value/future resell value.

 

[khanman22]

My first inclination is to walk. YMMV. However I have a friend with a Hunter 44 that suffered a hard grounding a couple years ago and just last year found tabs separating from the bulkheads. There were no cracks in the hull or near the keel bolts. All is repaired now and I was told it looks like first class work. Bottom line was cost north of 6K. Fortunately insurance covered a big chunk of the cost.

I would pay close attention to your surveyor, assuming you have good confidence in him/her. Any opinions you read here are, well, just opinions.

Thanks Rich. The surveyor is great. He said if it was his boat, he'd make the repairs himself but the question is would I feel comfortable knowing that this type of repair work was needed to be done prior to purchase and it'll always be there as long as I own the boat. I don't have a frame of reference if I should be comfortable or not--so on here collecting feedback through others opinions.

 

[dmax]

As Rich says, we're not there so we're just going on some pictures. I would have a fiberglass specialist, the best in the area, look at the boat and give you an opinion and estimate. I would then have that guy do the work. If done right, it should have no effect on the boat's value - if done right. Personally, if I wanted this boat, I would subtract the cost to fix and then a bit more for the trouble from the price and have it fixed myself, that way I would know it was fixed correctly. When other people fix things for you, they tend to take shortcuts.
You may want to look at some other Hunter 340's to see if it's all worth it though. You should establish what a Hunter 340 (or whatever model) in the condition you would like will cost. Only then can you decide whether this boat, with the uncertainties it has, is worth the price and effort.

 

[leo310]

As it was said before repairs if done right will make it better than factory. How do I know this its because I have it done. Back in 2004 I hit something and just about took the keel off the boat was on the hard for 6 months, after the repairs the boat sailed better as it now have an extra 200 pound of glass and this stiffen the boat. The big thing is make sure the repair is done right and the surveyor signs off so you can get insurance other wise you may have problem also ask for a price drop ie 2-5k.

 

[JRT]

@Bill19233 might have some specific feedback since I believe her races a 340.

Not much to add, but these boats are in the $40-60k range which is serious money. For what it is worth my 2003 C310 2 owner boat, freshwater only, is right in the middle of these prices and is very good condition with no serious damage like this. There are always tons of boats so find the right one.

 

[jon hansen]

i'm old to the sailboat market, WALK AWAY!
you asked, my $0.02. it's a huge buyers market. it would be like buying a car with a salvage title. there are plenty of nice boats out there that were not in a crash. get a broker, have him find you a nice boat. spend your money on new sails, not keel area repair.

 

[BigEasy]

As Rich says, we're not there so we're just going on some pictures. I would have a fiberglass specialist, the best in the area, look at the boat and give you an opinion and estimate. I would then have that guy do the work. If done right, it should have no effect on the boat's value - if done right. Personally, if I wanted this boat, I would subtract the cost to fix and then a bit more for the trouble from the price and have it fixed myself, that way I would know it was fixed correctly. When other people fix things for you, they tend to take shortcuts.
You may want to look at some other Hunter 340's to see if it's all worth it though. You should establish what a Hunter 340 (or whatever model) in the condition you would like will cost. Only then can you decide whether this boat, with the uncertainties it has, is worth the price and effort.

Couldn't agree more with DMax's advice; especially the part regarding looking at more 340's. You can always go back to this boat in a month or so to renegotiate price and repair. By looking at other boats, you will know what's available, then make the best decision. Who knows, you may find a better boat, undamaged, and at a better price. No need to rush into making a decision that you may later regret.
One last recommendation, especially for a new sailor, DO NOT fall in love with this boat (yet)!

 

[heritage]

I don't like the look of all the rust around the keel bolts. The strain put on the bolts during the grounding could have caused some tiny stress cracks in the bolts that have led to crevice corrosion.

 

[jssailem]

I respect and concur with the info shared by the experienced boat owners here.

There are many very nice Hunter 340’s available. It is difficult to see that when as a “I'm new to the sailing world” person. It is difficult to not fall in love at first site. That is why it is suggested “get a good surveyor that you pick and you pay the bill”. The surveyor brings a little sanity to this love story we have with boats.

Opinions, Sure I have a few. If I was to buy the boat, I would get three estimates for the cost of repair. I would choose the one that I feel will work with me and has the talent to do the repair. I’d add 20% to the bill as it always turns out to be more than what you expect. I‘d go to the owner and explain the finding of damage, I have several estimates I’ll buy the boat as is but at a price discount to have the repairs completed by my repair shop. If the owner is happy and wants to get rid of the boat. Both are winners. If the owner balks and say he will do the repairs. I would walk.

Note the guy doing the repairs needs to be committed to you. If something shows up and has not been repaired the shop involved with the owner owes you nothing. The shop that you paid is involved and if reputable will help you solve the issue. That is where the extra 20-30% will come in. There are always more repairs involved then appear on the surface.

All that said, this will be a serious repair. I suspect the boat was damaged. The owner did not think it was too bad. So he sailed. The rust on the keel bolts says it has been a while since the damage occurred, and water has been leaking in there and elsewhere (water always travels well beyond the immediate damage).

As was suggested. Give yourself time to consider other boats. Say a month. If it is still on the market and you really must have that boat because the cushions fit you tush perfectly, then go back and negotiate. But do it with your surveyors “As Is” value, not one as seen through an owner’s rose colored glasses.

 

[shemandr]

I think a good repair would entail taking the keel off.

 

[khanman22]

I respect and concur with the info shared by the experienced boat owners here.

There are many very nice Hunter 340’s available. It is difficult to see that when as a “I'm new to the sailing world” person. It is difficult to not fall in love at first site. That is why it is suggested “get a good surveyor that you pick and you pay the bill”. The surveyor brings a little sanity to this love story we have with boats.

Opinions, Sure I have a few. If I was to buy the boat, I would get three estimates for the cost of repair. I would choose the one that I feel will work with me and has the talent to do the repair. I’d add 20% to the bill as it always turns out to be more than what you expect. I‘d go to the owner and explain the finding of damage, I have several estimates I’ll buy the boat as is but at a price discount to have the repairs completed by my repair shop. If the owner is happy and wants to get rid of the boat. Both are winners. If the owner balks and say he will do the repairs. I would walk.

Note the guy doing the repairs needs to be committed to you. If something shows up and has not been repaired the shop involved with the owner owes you nothing. The shop that you paid is involved and if reputable will help you solve the issue. That is where the extra 20-30% will come in. There are always more repairs involved then appear on the surface.

All that said, this will be a serious repair. I suspect the boat was damaged. The owner did not think it was too bad. So he sailed. The rust on the keel bolts says it has been a while since the damage occurred, and water has been leaking in there and elsewhere (water always travels well beyond the immediate damage).

As was suggested. Give yourself time to consider other boats. Say a month. If it is still on the market and you really must have that boat because the cushions fit you tush perfectly, then go back and negotiate. But do it with your surveyors “As Is” value, not one as seen through an owner’s rose colored glasses.

Thanks jssailem, very good info, appreciate your opinion.

 

[Bill19233]

@Bill19233 might have some specific feedback since I believe her races a 340.

Not much to add, but these boats are in the $40-60k range which is serious money. For what it is worth my 2003 C310 2 owner boat, freshwater only, is right in the middle of these prices and is very good condition with no serious damage like this. There are always tons of boats so find the right one.

I don't know what is going on in the third photo of the keel bolts. There are areas similar to the first photo in the bilge of my boat, but my guess it's just gelcoat cracking from sloppy application. I have peeled up the cracks and the layup underneath is sound, the gel coat was surface applied over molded on and it's different thicknesses.
I've never liked that there's only five keel bolts on the 340. Sort of relevant is an interesting old thread about keel stubs by Maine Sail, compares Hunter 340 layup thickness to failed Oday's.
O'Day 302 Loses Keel - Check Yours!!