Another Frustrating Battery Failure...

[Maine Sail]

I just came from a customers boat and his start battery is flat dead. The battery is a less than two year old Odyssey Thin Plate Pure Lead AGM battery. The part that is sooooo frustrating is that I last worked on this boat in September of last year and the battery tested at better than new CCA by more than 110 cranking amps. It started the engine like there was no tomorrow and did so perfectly for the entire 2011 season.

The batteries, both banks, were fully charged in the fall then stored. They also got topped off in Feb or March owner can't really remember which. Odyssey claims these batteries to be able to survive for two years with no charge.

"STORAGE LIFE - 2 years before needing charge @ 25˚C (77˚F)"

They only went a few months without a charge? When installed this spring the key was hit and the battery reportedly turned the motor over perhaps half a revolution then died altogether. Today when I got to the boat the voltage was just 2.7 volts. The battery was not even connected when I got there so phantom loads are out, though it does not have any..

I charged it via alternator for over an hour and voltage read 12.8 when I shut it off then began to fall rapidly dropping to under 10V in less than three minutes. At its peak the acceptance from the 140A alternator was just 6A. This battery can take more than this alternator can supply when healthy.. It tested at just 16 Cold Cranking Amps.....

The real mystery is that this battery was purchased at the same time as the house bank, also Odyssey TPPL AGM, and the house bank is perfectly fine and has been deeply cycled... Arghhh. I guess tomorrow I get to see if Odyssey really stands behind the product or not....:cussing: I sure hope they do because this is a very expensive battery....

It did get deep cycled once by accident during a race to Bermuda but that was in its first year and it performed fine after that. They never let the voltage drop too much before firing up the motor and the motor always started so it was not cycled that deeply. They are supposed to withstand cycles to 20% SOC / 80% DOD... This battery has done nothing but start a small Yanmar 3GM except for one race where they cycled it. In theory it should easily last 5-8 years..

"Warranty - 3 years for commercial, industrial, marine and automotive applications in non BCI sizes."

These "sudden" failures for no apparent reason are very frustrating....

 

[woodster]

hummmm i wasn't aware that AGM's required water added....i was under the impression they were sealed batteries...... was i misinformed.....

regards

woody

 

[Maine Sail]

hummmm i wasn't aware that AGM's required water added....i was under the impression they were sealed batteries...... was i misinformed.....

regards

woody

When I said "topped off" it meant "charged up" not water. There is no way to add water to an AGM...

 

[woodster]

thanks Maine....some times i tend to read more in to things than are there....lol ......a friend of mine once told me i could read reading i just couldn't read writeing....lol....

regards

woody

 

[whatfiero]

manufacturing flaws always keep receipt and buy from reputable dealer napa always returns my 3 yr old batterys no questions asked quickly and painless it's probably the cold that did them in

 

[Maine Sail]

manufacturing flaws always keep receipt and buy from reputable dealer napa always returns my 3 yr old batterys no questions asked quickly and painless it's probably the cold that did them in

Cold weather does not hurt AGM batteries, at least not the temps we have here in Maine. Cold/cooler temps actually extends the life of all batteries, heat kills.. These batteries were stored in a basement that likely never dropped below 50F... They should be able to sit for TWO YEARS at 77F with no charge...

I wish this were the odd or isolated manufacturing "defect" but this is a type of failure I see all too often with AGM batteries. As of yet no one has given me a good answer as to why...

 

[kloudie1]

Interesting, Maine.. another case of the prettiest and most expensive not being the optimal choice.. I hope that they make good on just giving yall a new one since this looks like a case where the thin plates are no longer separated..

 

[Ron20324]

...These "sudden" failures for no apparent reason are very frustrating....

One spring I was driving to my boat to open her up for cleaning. I stopped to pick up a sandwich. Came out and the car had NO juice. Fortunately I had the boat battery to get me going. Back at the dealer, they put it on the tester. That's when the post came out. The battery post was broken INSIDE the case! When? How long ago? Dunno. They didn't give me new, but at least pro-rated a new one.

 

[anchorclanker]

Unless its a new Trojan, I will continue to buy the cheapest battery Walmart sells. I have had, and personally seen, such awful performance from the supposed top line batteries, and had such good service with the cheapest ones, it just makes no good sense to blow the extra money. AGM's seem to be much to hit and miss, and much to expensive for me to ever take the chance. One good discharge seems to do them in. I'll take a wet cell any day.

 

[zeehag]

i bought 4 costco 6v batteries in san diego, ca, usa...sailed to mazatlan, had 100 percent failure within 1 yr. took to costco in puerto vallarta, they said is a different company. they tested the batteries and GAVE me 4 replacements without charge.
i love warrantees. save receipts.

 

[centerline]

sometimes even the best and most expensive product available will fail..... without any abuse. it doesnt mean its not the right the right product for the job, it just means it had an unseen flaw in it during the manufacturing process.... and there is nothing we can do to prevent it.
a premium battery comes with a good warranty, so if you arent satisfied with the decision of the person who is doing the adjustment on one that has failed, find another dealer and see what they can do for you..... but usually battery warranties are written out fairly clear and understandable. it will be a free replacement for a specified amount of time, then pro-rated after that.

 

[anchorclanker]

i bought 4 costco 6v batteries in san diego, ca, usa...sailed to mazatlan, had 100 percent failure within 1 yr. took to costco in puerto vallarta, they said is a different company. they tested the batteries and GAVE me 4 replacements without charge.
i love warrantees. save receipts.

Thats an amazing story. I really miss having a Costco.

 

[zeehag]

yeah--i prayed hard and i had with me 2 mexican licensed 1600 ton capitans...one from puerto valllarta--mighta helped..lol

 

[Berndahle]

Exact same thing happened to my Deka AGM. I had two 4Ds in my house bank. Always took very good care of them, monitored them, stored them, charged them. They are 3 years old and one just suddently died. Deka offered me $250 toward a new one but then I'd have a new and a 3 year old battery in my bank for about $400. So I opted to go with 4 new 6V Duracells for the same amount of money, per your recommendation.

 

[centerline]

Unless its a new Trojan, I will continue to buy the cheapest battery Walmart sells. I have had, and personally seen, such awful performance from the supposed top line batteries, and had such good service with the cheapest ones, it just makes no good sense to blow the extra money. AGM's seem to be much to hit and miss, and much to expensive for me to ever take the chance. One good discharge seems to do them in. I'll take a wet cell any day.

its alright to buy the cheapest..... sometimes thats the way to do it.

but human nature has a lot to do with how some things are perceived... generally speaking, we complain loud about what doesnt work and we dont praise loud enough about what works better than expected.....

the way it normally works is, when we buy something cheap to get us by, and it fails, that is kinda to be expected and we go get another cheap one to replace it..... and keep going til it fails....
but when that same person decides to upgrade to longer life and/or stronger equipment, and then it fails prematurly, well..... by golly, the whole world is going to hear about this.... it just isnt right to have a failure in something that cost so much money..... but it happens.

good equipment is considered good equipment because it has been tested over the years by the consumer, and the consumer is a more demanding testing ground that what the manufacture has in house.....
and even as perfect as the human body is, it fails sometimes.... we shouldnt expect too much out of something that is made up of multiple parts and pieces..... no matter what it is. everything has a lifespan that is determined by the flaws within it, or by the abuse it receives during use. preventive maintenance will catch a lot of potential problems before they become real problems, but most people just want to "plug and play" without the necessary upkeep.

so it goes back to just "buy the cheapest because its going to fail anyway".....
we all do what works best for us as individuals, but somethings over time have been proven to be better than other things. but our current budget is what usually determines what we buy.....

and why spend the extra money on a good battery?.... because with the proper maintenance, over the normal life span of the battery it is a cheaper purchase price, the warranty is better, and you will have more years of trouble free service out of them.
it might not make sense if you only have a couple of small, easy to get to and change batteries, and you are always close to a purchase point for another one....

Oh....my point was, dont let one or two bad batteries spoil the whole truckload.... buy what you can afford and take care of what you got, and you will always know that you have done the best you can.

and Im not a fan of AGM or gel batteries either, but sometimes when you have an out of position, or tightly enclosed un-ventilated mounting area, that is all that will work.
go with lead-acid if you can....

 

[anchorclanker]

My Father taught me to always buy the best. But best doesn't always mean most expensive. Lead acid battery technology is over 100 years old. They know how to make good ones, and they know how to make junk. Specifically, they know how to make a battery last just so long, and no longer.

I was always buying the diehard type 72 month batteries, but since around the mid to late 80's I have never seen one last anywhere close to their rated lifetime, no matter how well cared for. Same with the big deep cycle marine batteries. I bought a brand new $140 battery for a diesel Mercedes from Walmart. Just over a year in it went south. They wanted 50% to replace it because the battery was dated over two years and I couldnt find the receipt.

If they make the expensive batteries to fail two years out, youll forever be buying a battery every two years, paying 1/2 the cost of new. They make money. If they make the 12 month batteries good enough to last more than 1 year, they make money. I have had the cheaper batteries outlast the more expensive ones, often two or three times the lifetime.

I had one 12 month delco last 11 years. So I do not necessarily believe cheaper is actually cheaper, but more often the better battery. They are probably at least as good as the 72 month ones. Just 1/4 the cost. Trojans on the other hand do have a solid reputation and are worth the cost. AGM is probably okay for handicap scooters you drive around in your house or carry on aircraft, but ill never have one in anything else. Optima knew how to make them good, but after the original company sold out they no longer last past warrantee.

Also, running any lead acid battery down dead, including Trojans, even once, can dramatically shorten its life or outright destroy it. AGM's appear to be even less able to handle deep discharge.

 

[Maine Sail]

the way it normally works is, when we buy something cheap to get us by, and it fails, that is kinda to be expected and we go get another cheap one to replace it..... and keep going til it fails....
but when that same person decides to upgrade to longer life and/or stronger equipment, and then it fails prematurly, well..... by golly, the whole world is going to hear about this.... it just isnt right to have a failure in something that cost so much money..... but it happens.

If you'd been here for a few years you'd know that I have been monitoring AGM failures for a loooooong while. I jumped into AGM's early when all the marketing was based on "lab" data not real world and when they told us it was okay to cycle to 80% depth of discharge, which made them less expensive on a $$$ to Ah's spread sheet. Now most of these same manufacturers have corrected their cycle depths to the standard wet DOD of 50%.. In the marine environment these batteries can be very troublesome if not cared for or used properly. Even when cared for properly they sometimes just fail suddenly and without warning. I am not saying wets don't do the same, on occasion, but the sudden catastrophic failures are much rarer than with AGM. They usually, on average, die much more gradually.

good equipment is considered good equipment because it has been tested over the years by the consumer, and the consumer is a more demanding testing ground that what the manufacture has in house.....

And yet people still continue to buy AGM batteries because people "think" they are the "best" for the marine environment? My fairly in-depth experience with them, in the marine environment, does not reflect that, as directly related to cycle life/longevity and this is but one more case, in a large pile of them, of sudden death.

I've installed 42 batteries in the last 8 or 9 weeks alone so do get quite a bit of experience with charging systems and battery banks in the marine market. I also get to measure and put my analyzers on many types of batteries and many brands. Between wet lead the only "clear" winner I see is Rolls/Surrette beyond that they all last about the same and average about the same no matter what you paid for them. Among AGM I also see no clear winner. Lifeline & Deka etc. all seem to average about the same and both brands suffer from what I have begun calling "sudden death syndrome" (SDS). Odyssey was my high hopes candidate in the AGM market, and I was having high hopes, but they have been a little dented with this experience. My oldest bank of Odyssey batteries is now into it's third season so time will tell.

GEL batteries properly cared for without a doubt out last others types except for perhaps the very expensive Li technology, which is not yet proven, but relying on owners to "properly" care for them is not always easy so they often get an undeserved bad rap.

preventive maintenance will catch a lot of potential problems before they become real problems, but most people just want to "plug and play" without the necessary upkeep.

Sadly with this and the pile of other AGM failures I have witnessed very few of them could be considered "plug & play" and most had exemplary upkeep but still failed far earlier than the glossy ads would lead one to believe. I did a seminar last year at a local yacht club had numerous AGM users in the crowd. When each owner was queried the average life in the room for AGM was under 3 years and all but one AGM owner had an upgraded charging system.. We did the same for wets and the average was 5 years and very few had upgraded charging systems. We had one GEL user, I know bad data n=1, and his bank was 9 years old. Keep in mind that nearly all these boats were/are mooring sailed. That is just about what I see, on average.

so it goes back to just "buy the cheapest because its going to fail anyway".....
we all do what works best for us as individuals, but somethings over time have been proven to be better than other things. but our current budget is what usually determines what we buy.....

I don't necessarily prescribe to the "buy the cheapest" but with batteries even cheap ones can very often outlast "good ones"... Sometimes you can find the cheapest re-seller of the SAME exact battery sold under a different label. For example the West Marine sticker on a group 31 wet battery for $249.00 does not buy you a battery ANY DIFFERENT, other than the STICKER, than the Duracell group 31 sold at Sam's Club for $82.00.. Same battery, same warranty, same manufacturer but a different sticker and a whopping savings of $167.00 per battery!! $167.00 for a WM/Sea Volt sticker is a tad offensive...

People also rarely know when to deem "end of life" for a bank. I have a guy who "thinks" he gets 7 years out of his batteries. For his definition he does. His idea of "dead" is when he can't make a VHF call. Technically his bank is dead at about year 5 but he runs very little loads and does not start a motor. The only thing he has is a VHF for calling the launch.

and why spend the extra money on a good battery?.... because with the proper maintenance, over the normal life span of the battery it is a cheaper purchase price, the warranty is better, and you will have more years of trouble free service out of them.
it might not make sense if you only have a couple of small, easy to get to and change batteries, and you are always close to a purchase point for another one....

With Rolls/Surrette I would agree but with other "premium brands" I have not seen an ounce of evidence that in the real world of the marine environment the large price premium gets you enough, if any, longer life to make up for the price premium in a dollars to Ah's conversion.

I've spread sheeted this numerous times using real world examples of known bank life. I actually prefer the quality of US Battery over another brand that comes in a burgundy case. For a wet battery, other than Rolls, I feel that US Battery is building one of the best wet cell batteries made but they are small and not many even know about them. Deka/East Penn is not far behind and Crown is not too shabby either. The only batteries I see with "premium warranties" are Odyssey and Rolls and I'll soon find out how good the Odyssey warranty is. If we look at the Trojan SCS-150, SCS-200 and SCS-225 12V marine batteries they have a 12 month free replacement warranty, same as the 12V Duracell/Deka batteries from Sam's Club, WM or NAPA & the Same as the US Battery 31 DCXC which has the same Ah capacity but that sells for about $100.00 less..... Some Rolls have a 2 year free and some have a 3 year free and Odyssey is 3 years free.

A few weeks ago installed a bank of Trojan SCS-225's it cost $630.00 and provides 390 Ah's. I also installed a bank of US Battery 31 DCXC's that cost $306.00 and they also provide 390Ah's. These batteries carry the same warranty have same amp hour capacity and I know from experience the US Battery bank will last every bit as long as the Trojan's if not longer. The cost per Ah was $1.61 for the Trojan's and $0.78.... If the US Battery bank lasts five years that means that the Trojan bank will need to last twice as long, 10 years, to even equal the cost of the US Battery. It won't because I've yet to see an SCS series last 10+...... I work on lots of boats with Trojan SCS batteries and they still average about 5ish years... Some go slightly longer and some dies sooner but the average is about 5.. Heck the Deka/East Penn batteries also average about 5 years but have slightly lower Ah capacity than the SCS or the DCXC series...

Oh....my point was, dont let one or two bad batteries spoil the whole truckload.... buy what you can afford and take care of what you got, and you will always know that you have done the best you can.

I don't, you can get bad batteries with every brand and type. What I watch and measure for is averages. I have the equipment, customer base and ability to do that, most don't. Having worked in the sciences arena of the Biotech industry for many years I understand well that n=1 does not make for data but n=50 or n=300 begins to give you some real information.

and Im not a fan of AGM or gel batteries either, but sometimes when you have an out of position, or tightly enclosed un-ventilated mounting area, that is all that will work.
go with lead-acid if you can....

I am actually a big fan of GEL batteries but with them comes a LOT more installation expense. I have become not so much a fan of AGM, if it is longevity you are after but they DO have other benefits and that is why I still install them. I have one customer at year 13 with GEL CELLS and they still pass every test, capacitance, pulsed load and carbon pile with flying colors. Even Rolls/Surrette don't often do that in the marine market..

 

[Kettlewell]

I work on lots of boats with Trojan SCS batteries and they still average about 5ish years... Some go slightly longer and some dies sooner but the average is about 5.. Heck the Deka/East Penn batteries also average about 5 years but have slightly lower Ah capacity than the SCS or the DCXC series...

This is my personal experience too, with a wide variety of batteries used over the course of more than 30 years of boat ownership. I plan on replacing the batteries, whatever brand or construction, every five years. I will say that I did get close to ten years out of a couple of Sonnenschein gels bought back when they first arrived in the USA, and those batteries were totally abused too. They were deep-cycled until completely flat numerous times, routinely short cycled and not topped off, left partially discharged for long periods, etc. and they always came back up. My charging system consisted of a cheap analog voltmeter I kept an eye on, an unregulated wind generator, a bunch of unregulated solar panels, and the tiny alternator on a 9.9 HP outboard.

In any case, I think the bottom line is that no matter how careful you are and how perfect your charging system and routines, stuff happens on boats and it is very likely that at some point you will end up deep cycling too low or overcharging or something that will destroy a battery or two, and then you instantly lose all the benefits of the very expensive choices that might last longer in a perfect world.

 

[Maine Sail]

Update:

I brought the battery home to my shop and figured if it is "toast" anyway I'd try a few experiments I've found occasionally useful over the years.

First I charged it for 8 hours on my shop charger at 14.4V. I then whacked it with my 500A load tester, I did four blasts of 15 seconds each. She was dropping to 1-2 volts. It never gave more than about 20A even after being charged by the alternator for roughly three hours and my shop charger for about 8 hours.. By ever common definition this battery was dead.

I then re-connected my shop charger and dialed the voltage to 14.7V (max for an Odyssey) and hit her for about four hours. I then came back and did the carbon pile dump again. This time I got up to 100A and the voltage held better... She accepted about 10A of charge current.

I repeated this a few times today with the last one a few minutes ago.

So now it has been on the charger all day, first at 14.4V then at 14.7, with multiple high current load dumps, and I just hit it again and she produced 275A and held 9V under load... Still a far way from the well over 500A I should be seeing but.....

When I started this the battery would only accept about 5A of charge current and it should take waaaaaaaay more than my charger can produce.. She's now finally taking more than my charger can provide. I may just be able to save this one, but maybe not. I'll see tomorrow how she supports a resting voltage and how she capacitance and pulsed load tests...

Odd, very odd....

 

[anchorclanker]

Another option is nickel iron batteries. They can be run completely stone dead, repeatedly, without damage, wont freeze, last for 3 or 4 decades. Some old edisons have lasted more than 75 years.