another battery question.....................

artboas · Oct 8, 2012

Charger

Navicula said:
my boat is in the water hooked to shore power..........
I have two 8D batterys with a 3 postion battery selector
and I also have a starting battery with an on off battery selector
I also have a freedom 2500 heart invertor

when hooked to shore power.....do I leave the battery selectors in the off postion.

if I do leave the selectors off, will my DC power run out over time.

I was at the boat today hooked to shore power and I noticed that with the battery selector set to ALL (I checked with a meter on the battery posts)............the 8d batterys where charging at 13.5v to 14v, once I turned the battery selector to off..........the charging stopped.......

what stops the batterys from overcharging

the starting battery had no effect, weather its battery selector was on or off...........it was reading 12.07 volts...

thanks

Your charger is coupled with the inverter, and is connected to the common terminal on the battery switch.
That means that the inverter/ charger will either draw from or charge to whatever battery is selected by the switch.
If the switch is set to off, but your shore powe is on, then your DC loads are running directly from the charger. Not reccomended.
The Freedom 2500 (you have) was made before they incorporated an echo charge output.
The way that Hunter charged the start battery on the Legend 40.5 & 43 was from the alternator directky, and used a 12v solenoid that when energized by the engine key switch connected the house batteries to the start. So this ensured the batteries were charging while the engine is running.
My suggestion: buy an echo charge, and connect it between the house & start. This will ensure the start is being charged when the house is as well

jrowan · Oct 8, 2012

When you switched the battery selector switch to off, it cuts the circuit off to the batteries, hence no power voltage will be registered at the battery level indicator. Your batteries are not being charged BY the 12 volt battery circuit, they are RECEIVING power charge from a battery charger, which can only be powered through a 110 volt shore power cord. The charger should be wired to a breaker on your 110 volt panel, so it can be turned on/off via a dedicated breaker to protect from overheating / fire.
All charging systems should have an electronic overcharge / overcurrent protection via a voltage regulator (usually) built into the charger itself. You should leave your batteries switched to off when not using the at idle, or they will be drawn down by sending current through the closed circuit. Although batteries will also loose voltage anyway, just by sitting unused. Hence the battery charger. If you're on the hook, & off the grid, then a modest solar power panel setup can help slowly charge the batteries & prevent them from discharging, such as on a mooring, etc. Be careful using inverters, as the amount of 12 volt battery power necessary to convert to 110 volt power, via the inverter can draw down house batteries very quickly.
ps. I have my electric bilge pump wired directly to the battery posts, & not to the circuit panel or main switch, so that it is powered directly & cannot be interupted, unless its dedicated, seperate swith is turned off. This way you don't unintentionally tun off the bilge pump via the main panel, since the pump is the most important electrically powered device on the boat!

Don Lucas · Oct 8, 2012

On my 410 the battery selector switch is really the invertor selector switch. So on shore power it charges whatever battery is selected for the inverter.

onecoolair · Oct 8, 2012

Navicula said:
my boat is in the water hooked to shore power..........
I have two 8D batterys with a 3 postion battery selector
and I also have a starting battery with an on off battery selector
I also have a freedom 2500 heart invertor

when hooked to shore power.....do I leave the battery selectors in the off postion.

if I do leave the selectors off, will my DC power run out over time.

I was at the boat today hooked to shore power and I noticed that with the battery selector set to ALL (I checked with a meter on the battery posts)............the 8d batterys where charging at 13.5v to 14v, once I turned the battery selector to off..........the charging stopped.......

what stops the batterys from overcharging

the starting battery had no effect, weather its battery selector was on or off...........it was reading 12.07 volts...

thanks

Every boat owner should have or try to have a complete as possible understanding of all systems on board there boat.
What you need is to do a complete and thorough wiring diagram drawn up of how your boat is actually wired. Good luck on figuring out that not so free freedom thing....Not a big fan of a company that tries create job security for themselves. Case in point Lawyers....I bet that heart inverter charger is set up to the factory specs. That is that the battery charger runs off the inverter.

So what do you do when there is not enough juice in your batteries to run inverter?

So even if you are plugged into shore power or running generator? Your screwed! I have seen many cases of friends getting sucked into this same conundrum.
Just turning off your main battery selector switch should have nothing to do with preventing each individual battery bank from getting their proper charging needs independently from a good marine grade battery charger while plug into shore power or when charger is running off the gen set..

onecoolair · Oct 8, 2012

artboas said:
Your charger is coupled with the inverter, and is connected to the common terminal on the battery switch.
That means that the inverter/ charger will either draw from or charge to whatever battery is selected by the switch.
If the switch is set to off, but your shore powe is on, then your DC loads are running directly from the charger. Not reccomended.
The Freedom 2500 (you have) was made before they incorporated an echo charge output.
The way that Hunter charged the start battery on the Legend 40.5 & 43 was from the alternator directky, and used a 12v solenoid that when energized by the engine key switch connected the house batteries to the start. So this ensured the batteries were charging while the engine is running.
My suggestion: buy an echo charge, and connect it between the house & start. This will ensure the start is being charged when the house is as well

Art ....adding the echo to keep a charge on the starter/reserve is a good idea if his charger does not have the ability to monitor and charge three battery banks. But he still has the problem of that the battery charger gets its 120 volts from the inverter. And the inverter gets it power from where? Can you guess?

Charger needs to be able to get its needed 120 volts to operate from shore power and or while on gen set.

Maine Sail · Oct 8, 2012

onecoolair said:
Art ....adding the echo to keep a charge on the starter/reserve is a good idea if his charger does not have the ability to monitor and charge three battery banks. But he still has the problem of that the battery charger gets its 120 volts from the inverter. And the inverter gets it power from where? Can you guess?

That is not how they work. The battery charger in I/C units is available only when a 120V source is present in either shore power or gen set. No 120V, no charger. When you remove shore power or gen set then the charger part of an I/C will not work and it will only invert. The "charger" in the inverter runs off non-inverted 120V not inverted 120V.. They are specifically designed so they wont "charge" when there is no 120V available..

artboas · Oct 8, 2012

I will now wave my magic wand...

Maine Sail said:
That is not how they work. The battery charger in I/C units is available only when a 120V source is present in either shore power or gen set. No 120V, no charger. When you remove shore power or gen set then the charger part of an I/C will not work and it will only invert. The "charger" in the inverter runs off non-inverted 120V not inverted 120V.. They are specifically designed so they wont "charge" when there is no 120V available..

And clear up all the confusion.
In the Xantex 2500, the inverter & charger live very happily in the same box.
They also share the same Positive + terminal on the case.
When the shore power is plugged on, a voltage sensing relay inside the box connects the charger to the + output.
At the same time, another relay connects the incoming shore power to the AC output lines on the 2500, thereby supplying power to the boat.
And now it's late at night, and your loser boat neighbour is staggering back from the bar. Oops, trips overt your power cord.

Now you boat has no AC power coming in.
The relay that connected the + output terminal to the output of the charger now connects to the output of the inverter.
And the internal AC relay disconnects the AC input feed to the 2500, and connects the inverter output to your house 120 volt power bus.
Presto! Your microvave now runs off the inverter, and it's getting that juice from your house bank... All quicker that you can say,,"who unplugged my ***####** power cord.
And then the 2500 starts to monitor your battery voltage.
It will automatically shut off the inverter when either:
A. Your batteries are below (approx) 10.5 v
Or, when your computer is about to save the file you worked 4 hours on, and need to have on the boss's desk by 8:30 the next AM

Hope this clarifies it call !!

onecoolair · Oct 8, 2012

Maine Sail said:
That is not how they work. The battery charger in I/C units is available only when a 120V source is present in either shore power or gen set. No 120V, no charger. When you remove shore power or gen set then the charger part of an I/C will not work and it will only invert. The "charger" in the inverter runs off non-inverted 120V not inverted 120V.. They are specifically designed so they wont "charge" when there is no 120V available..

Main....Not the ones I have seen installed.

onecoolair · Oct 8, 2012

artboas said:
And clear up all the confusion.
In the Xantex 2500, the inverter & charger live very happily in the same box.
They also share the same Positive + terminal on the case.
When the shore power is plugged on, a voltage sensing relay inside the box connects the charger to the + output.
At the same time, another relay connects the incoming shore power to the AC output lines on the 2500, thereby supplying power to the boat.
And now it's late at night, and your loser boat neighbour is staggering back from the bar. Oops, trips overt your power cord.

Now you boat has no AC power coming in.
The relay that connected the + output terminal to the output of the charger now connects to the output of the inverter.
And the internal AC relay disconnects the AC input feed to the 2500, and connects the inverter output to your house 120 volt power bus.
Presto! Your microvave now runs off the inverter, and it's getting that juice from your house bank... All quicker that you can say,,"who unplugged my ***####** power cord.
And then the 2500 starts to monitor your battery voltage.
It will automatically shut off the inverter when either:
A. Your batteries are below (approx) 10.5 v
Or, when your computer is about to save the file you worked 4 hours on, and need to have on the boss's desk by 8:30 the next AM

Hope this clarifies it call !!

Art ....very good explanation. I even understood it.

Sounds like a good set up till it malfunctions.
A friend almost lost his H450 one day when the not so smart relays got confused one day cause a fire. Luckily he was on board and a wake he smelled the smoke so it stayed a small fire. After repairs and new unit was installed. It did it again. Many many headaches...You think they would have learned and did something else. For some reason he just worshiped this thing??? One day on a group cruise. It was one of thowes 100+ degree Texas days their battery banks had gotten depleted below 50%. This fancy not so smart fancy set up would not let them have a/c below decks and would not even let the freezer even run till it got the batteries up past 80% made no difference weather they were on gen or shore power. But even then it seems it made no difference, the way this thing was set up it made all the decisions on what was allowed to run on this boat.... the Captain was not in charge here.

Now here is my set up....All electronics tvs computer etc. Run off a UPS battery back up. So if shore power is disrupted or there is a marina power surge I am covered. UPS battery size I have will last about 20 minutes plenty of time to shut down computer. If any batteries gets run down its going to be the UPS not the house. All connections are set up in the cabinet under the nav station. If I am fixing to take boat out. I can disconnect shore power. Start engine go below and if I need to keep everything running then reach under nav and switch UPS over to inverter. And then when ready shut down tvs computer when I or the crew decide.

Maine Sail · Oct 9, 2012

onecoolair said:
Main....Not the ones I have seen installed.

Never seen an I/C that operated the charger with no 120V power... Installed a boat load of them from all brands, Xantrex, Magnum, Mastervolt, Victron even the older Trace units did not do this. etc. etc... .

onecoolair · Oct 9, 2012

Maine Sail said:
Never seen an I/C that operated the charger with no 120V power... Installed a boat load of them from all brands, Xantrex, Magnum, Mastervolt, Victron even the older Trace units did not do this. etc. etc... .

Mainsail......Yes I know I always found it a very strange way to have charger set up that way.
Now that I think back. It seems the same factors were always involved. It was always a freedom heart interface, and a "local" supposed manufacture approved and trained installer involved. Don't know who this guy was, but it was always the same guy I bet!
Another example.....Had boat neighbor had a really nice caliber 36 he would come down to boat and find batteries dead. Battery charger not working, even though boat was on shore power and breakers on. He had to always bring on board a standard auto hi amp load charger and connect it directly to batteries then run a separate extension cord and use a special adapter to plug into dock outlet. Then he had to wait most of the night to bring batteries up before freedom inverter/charger would kick in and start to work. Could not even run his a/c.....There also was always another issuie about which position to select on battery 1/2/both/off selector switch otherwise batteries would not charge.

Maine Sail · Oct 9, 2012

onecoolair said:
Mainsail......Yes I know I always found it a very strange way to have charger set up that way.
Now that I think back. It seems the same factors were always involved. It was always a freedom heart interface, and a "local" supposed manufacture approved and trained installer involved. Don't know who this guy was, but it was always the same guy I bet!
Another example.....Had boat neighbor had a really nice caliber 36 he would come down to boat and find batteries dead. Battery charger not working, even though boat was on shore power and breakers on. He had to always bring on board a standard auto hi amp load charger and connect it directly to batteries then run a separate extension cord and use a special adapter to plug into dock outlet. Then he had to wait most of the night to bring batteries up before freedom inverter/charger would kick in and start to work. Could not even run his a/c.....There also was always another issuie about which position to select on battery 1/2/both/off selector switch otherwise batteries would not charge.

No Freedom series I/C's ever had the ability to run the charger off the inverter. You simply can't charge a battery from itself this is why they are built so this can't happen. Inside the box they are two separate devices wires as Art described. Sounds like someone wired these inappropriately but even with bad wiring there is no real way to get the charger to run off the inverter without completely re-wiring the internals. These are simple devices to wire yet people still mess them up....

onecoolair · Oct 9, 2012

Maine Sail said:
No Freedom series I/C's ever had the ability to run the charger off the inverter. You simply can't charge a battery from itself this is why they are built so this can't happen. Inside the box they are two separate devices wires as Art described. Sounds like someone wired these inappropriately but even with bad wiring there is no real way to get the charger to run off the inverter without completely re-wiring the internals. These are simple devices to wire yet people still mess them up....

Yep!....That's what I was thinking some local guy here had a lot of people "duped" into believing that he was the only one licensed to do the install for warranty and the only one that new how to install these units correctly. :troll:Thus all the headaches and bad press.

Marc14857 · Oct 9, 2012

Just to be clear my 2005 H44 has a xantrex freedom 25 C/I that I have become intemitly familiar with just having had it rebuilt. It does have an echo charger, actually two take offs for the echo charger. I also have two on /off battery switches, one each for the house bank and starting battery. With the switches in the off positions , house bank remains connected to the loads, but the starter battery is isolated. Also the freedom 25 charger is isolated from both batteries. With the switches in the on position the C/I charges both batteries as long as there is an A/C input available to the C/I. The starting battery is charged via the echo charger built into the C/I. If I lose the A/C input the C/I does not auto transfer to invert and I have to press the invert switch at the Xantrex remote panel to enter the invert mode. There may be an auto transfer function available, I'm not sure but I like my setup as it precludes draining down the batteries when I am away from the boat. My fridge and freezer are both DC powered so auto switching to invert does not buy me much when I am away from the boat.

eianm · Oct 10, 2012

as Maine Sail can confirm- the Xantrax Freedom 2500 is designed to be left on all the time ( shore power connected) - it will not overcharge the batteries- it will simply go to FLOAT mode when they are fully charged , thus extending the life of the batteries by reducing sulfation of the plates!

Stu Jackson · Oct 10, 2012

Inverter charger operations

eianm said:
as Maine Sail can confirm- the Xantrax Freedom 2500 is designed to be left on all the time ( shore power connected) - it will not overcharge the batteries- it will simply go to FLOAT mode when they are fully charged , thus extending the life of the batteries by reducing sulfation of the plates!

Marc's right and his presentation was very good. It also describes how I operate my Freedom 15, although I don't have the one with the built-in echo charge (I use a separate combiner).

While Marc has a Xantrex remote panel, i use my Link 2000. Either way, the remote panel or the Link turns the charger AND the inverter on or off. Can't do both, either, which is GOOD.

heritage · Oct 12, 2012

Navicula, from your two posts, you state that the starting battery is not charged by the charger/invertor and is not charged by the engine's alternator. Do you have a solar panel?