I have a question about the variables that lead to a broaching event. I have a few ideas about what led to my broach, but am not sure about exactly why it happened(s). 1st, I think I probably should have reefed...the wind was blowing hard enough for many whitecaps to be present, with some foamy spray on some of them...I'm thinking about 18 to 25 mph winds. Because the winds were so heavy I was riding on the edge of a jibe...going as straight down wind as possible. Not withstanding reefing, I am wondering if I should have pulled in my mainsail a bit (I had it almost all the way out)and, maybe, not tried to go as straight downwind as I did? What are some techniques to prevent this from happening? It was quite the experience...it happened very quick, my rudder had no grab on the water. My dog and I rolled down to my girlfriend with physics in total control...as she was exclaming "Rich!!!" I replied, while rolling into her "it's all good, we'll be okay". Which I did believe as I had confidence in the boat's ability to unheel as we went back up into the heavy (and gusting) wind (after which the challenge continued...), and I we were in a lake with small waves so I no little fear of a beam wave hitting us. When all was said and done I safely got my boat to a beach near a dock (I have no motor at the moment, so if I want the boat to move it's by sail). So what are the variables causing a broach, and what should I have done (other than the obvious reefing) to prevent a broaching event?! Richard
an abrupt broach...
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What type of boat?
Richard, What type of boat (H170, H19), what kind of sails (stock main and 150% genoa) and what kind of keel (swing, daggerboard, shoal, fin)?
Richard, What type of boat (H170, H19), what kind of sails (stock main and 150% genoa) and what kind of keel (swing, daggerboard, shoal, fin)?
Don't go straight downwind.
An accidental jibe in those conditions could be just as scary and could really cause problems to both the boat and the crew. Have you practiced heaving to and putting in a reef in the main? More info on the boat would help.
An accidental jibe in those conditions could be just as scary and could really cause problems to both the boat and the crew. Have you practiced heaving to and putting in a reef in the main? More info on the boat would help.
Jib alone
In some situations like you described, I will pull in (roll up) half my genoa and drop the mainsail -- less sail area and an accidental jibe is not as serious with just the genoa. Do you have a furling jib?
In some situations like you described, I will pull in (roll up) half my genoa and drop the mainsail -- less sail area and an accidental jibe is not as serious with just the genoa. Do you have a furling jib?
I have heaved to a couple of times
after reading an article about it and was amazed at how well it worked, but it was not in these pretty heavy conditions, and I have only reefed a few times and need to practice more, as I don't feel very comfortable with with it. That was probably my biggest problem, as when the wind picked up I realized that a reef would be nice, but didn't feel very good about performing it under those conditions (all my neurons were focused on getting back to the dock, about a mile downwind). I was aware of the accidental jibe possibility, and let the crew know about the dangers, but felt it was easier on the boat to be almost dead downwind, in retrospect that was probably not the best tactic. I see (felt!) the need to practice reefing while underway. I think I could have done it, but not having done it left me feeling more comfortable with driving the boat home as quickly as possible. no furling jib...
The jib alone sounds like it would have been a great idea...of course, this is in retrospect....one problem perhaps, was that I thought I could handle the conditions...shoulda tucked away the testosterone and dropped sail.
after reading an article about it and was amazed at how well it worked, but it was not in these pretty heavy conditions, and I have only reefed a few times and need to practice more, as I don't feel very comfortable with with it. That was probably my biggest problem, as when the wind picked up I realized that a reef would be nice, but didn't feel very good about performing it under those conditions (all my neurons were focused on getting back to the dock, about a mile downwind). I was aware of the accidental jibe possibility, and let the crew know about the dangers, but felt it was easier on the boat to be almost dead downwind, in retrospect that was probably not the best tactic. I see (felt!) the need to practice reefing while underway. I think I could have done it, but not having done it left me feeling more comfortable with driving the boat home as quickly as possible. no furling jib...
The jib alone sounds like it would have been a great idea...of course, this is in retrospect....one problem perhaps, was that I thought I could handle the conditions...shoulda tucked away the testosterone and dropped sail.Raising centreboard may help.
In dinghy sailing we learned that to go fast and safe off the wind we should raise the centreboard a bit. That allows the boat to safely gybe when the wind is honking.
In dinghy sailing we learned that to go fast and safe off the wind we should raise the centreboard a bit. That allows the boat to safely gybe when the wind is honking.
Agree with Steve here
He has the right Idea, downwind a jib is best and keep her BELOW hull speed, for speed get a 'Vette you won't go faster than a bicycle in these kinds of mono-hulls. Reef EARLY, again, if the thought even crosses your mind, then REEF or furl the main.This may save your life one day, never let the wind, waves, and the moment make you believe you must keep moving fast, you can stop in ANY conditions. The only advice I could ad to the good advice given here on thread is, don't you swabs ever rig a preventer?
He has the right Idea, downwind a jib is best and keep her BELOW hull speed, for speed get a 'Vette you won't go faster than a bicycle in these kinds of mono-hulls. Reef EARLY, again, if the thought even crosses your mind, then REEF or furl the main.This may save your life one day, never let the wind, waves, and the moment make you believe you must keep moving fast, you can stop in ANY conditions. The only advice I could ad to the good advice given here on thread is, don't you swabs ever rig a preventer?
Having raced dingys
for a few years in the early 70's on Galveston Bay, I learned that raising the center board all the way or almost when going downwind. The center board down in all except light winds is like stepping on one foot with the other foot, you will go down or close to it. Also sailing off the wind. Both these have been mentioned. The point is that you have more control. Once while racing in Flying Juniors, the wind picked up so much that I let the sheets go, sails flapping and still on a plane with a huge roster tail. We turned and headed straight for shore. By the time we got there, the normally chest deep water was well over my head, the wind was blowing straight to shore. If I had the center board down, we would not have made shore, atleast upright.
for a few years in the early 70's on Galveston Bay, I learned that raising the center board all the way or almost when going downwind. The center board down in all except light winds is like stepping on one foot with the other foot, you will go down or close to it. Also sailing off the wind. Both these have been mentioned. The point is that you have more control. Once while racing in Flying Juniors, the wind picked up so much that I let the sheets go, sails flapping and still on a plane with a huge roster tail. We turned and headed straight for shore. By the time we got there, the normally chest deep water was well over my head, the wind was blowing straight to shore. If I had the center board down, we would not have made shore, atleast upright.
All good stuff
So what made Rich's rudder "lose its' bite"? If he was moving fast he should have had plenty of water moving over the foil to control the boat. For those of you who care for a hint, this same thing happens to us every time we try and run downwind (150 to 200 deg relative wind)in 15+ knot winds on the Bay. It starts out fine when the waves don't have much of a fetch but as the fectch grows and the waves get bigger the problem more and more serious. Waves get bigger the problem gets worse, same boat same wind. Rich said he had his main almost all the way out. Where is the center of effort of the main in that kind of situation? It is out over the toe rail on the downwind side. This creates lots of twist around the keel trying to turn the boat around into the wind, AKA massive weather helm. You have to put the helm to-weather to compensate. Run the little force arrows through your head as you imagine steering the boat through the waves. I figured it out and I'm real slow on the uptake. I think it was the 4th time we did it and about the 1000th wave when the lights came on. What is the fastest you ever surged going downwind surfing the waves. My 37.5 hunter made it to 10.1 knots so far. REAL EXCITING!!!! 190% asmetrical spinnaker in 22 knots of wind.
So what made Rich's rudder "lose its' bite"? If he was moving fast he should have had plenty of water moving over the foil to control the boat. For those of you who care for a hint, this same thing happens to us every time we try and run downwind (150 to 200 deg relative wind)in 15+ knot winds on the Bay. It starts out fine when the waves don't have much of a fetch but as the fectch grows and the waves get bigger the problem more and more serious. Waves get bigger the problem gets worse, same boat same wind. Rich said he had his main almost all the way out. Where is the center of effort of the main in that kind of situation? It is out over the toe rail on the downwind side. This creates lots of twist around the keel trying to turn the boat around into the wind, AKA massive weather helm. You have to put the helm to-weather to compensate. Run the little force arrows through your head as you imagine steering the boat through the waves. I figured it out and I'm real slow on the uptake. I think it was the 4th time we did it and about the 1000th wave when the lights came on. What is the fastest you ever surged going downwind surfing the waves. My 37.5 hunter made it to 10.1 knots so far. REAL EXCITING!!!! 190% asmetrical spinnaker in 22 knots of wind.
What kind of boat is that?
18 to 25 MPH translates to 15 to 20 knots which is not much, specially in protected lake waters. When running dowind the keel's only function is ballast so it cannot be blamed for the broach. A boat running straight in front of the wind has no heel. As you get away from center the heel will start. As your boat hits its hull speed the hull will start acting like a brake while your overcanvased mast will continue pulling. Pull hard enough and your bow and leeward rail wil go down in the water with your stern rising at an angle rendering the rudder useless. Any pull from the sails beyond the ability to propel the boat at hull speed is wasted. I don't like running in front of bad weather but sometimes you cannot avoid it. Definitely you should have reefed, then steer to keep the boat in balance in front of the wind. Besides reefing you can spill some air off by bringing the sail in a bit. If you start surfing and the boat is gaining to much speed is time to bring the sails down and go on bare poles. Practice heaving to.
18 to 25 MPH translates to 15 to 20 knots which is not much, specially in protected lake waters. When running dowind the keel's only function is ballast so it cannot be blamed for the broach. A boat running straight in front of the wind has no heel. As you get away from center the heel will start. As your boat hits its hull speed the hull will start acting like a brake while your overcanvased mast will continue pulling. Pull hard enough and your bow and leeward rail wil go down in the water with your stern rising at an angle rendering the rudder useless. Any pull from the sails beyond the ability to propel the boat at hull speed is wasted. I don't like running in front of bad weather but sometimes you cannot avoid it. Definitely you should have reefed, then steer to keep the boat in balance in front of the wind. Besides reefing you can spill some air off by bringing the sail in a bit. If you start surfing and the boat is gaining to much speed is time to bring the sails down and go on bare poles. Practice heaving to.
Bietzpadlin is full keel with attached
rudder, Last summer we blew a gybe and rounded up. some may call it a broach but we didn't have any problem , just eased the sheets and got back on course. How the boat handles a broach depends alot on the boat and very little on the crew. How the crew handles a broach denpeds alot on experience.
rudder, Last summer we blew a gybe and rounded up. some may call it a broach but we didn't have any problem , just eased the sheets and got back on course. How the boat handles a broach depends alot on the boat and very little on the crew. How the crew handles a broach denpeds alot on experience.
Correction Ross, a broach is not ...
an accidental gybe. A broach is a dangerous accidental ocurrence comparable to a knock down. It is best described by the bow of the boat being driven into the water at an angle while the boat is heeling at 30+ degrees and the stern is being lifted out of the water creating a loss of steering. It is very dangerous as it happens at a high rate of speed creating a possibility of capsizing. I seen a 16,000 pounds boat standing practically on its bow as a result of broaching; it luckily came back down on its bottom with nobody hurt but the boat suffered significant damage.
an accidental gybe. A broach is a dangerous accidental ocurrence comparable to a knock down. It is best described by the bow of the boat being driven into the water at an angle while the boat is heeling at 30+ degrees and the stern is being lifted out of the water creating a loss of steering. It is very dangerous as it happens at a high rate of speed creating a possibility of capsizing. I seen a 16,000 pounds boat standing practically on its bow as a result of broaching; it luckily came back down on its bottom with nobody hurt but the boat suffered significant damage.
Another dictionary definition...
Broach may mean: Broach: A sudden instability in the heading of a sailboat when sailing downwind. Broach: Submarines operating submerged are said to have broached the surface when a portion of the ship (such as the sail, bow, or screw) other than a mast or antenna comes out of the water. This is similar in intent, if not in 3-D direction, to the use of broach to describe instability in heading of a sailing ship.
Broach may mean: Broach: A sudden instability in the heading of a sailboat when sailing downwind. Broach: Submarines operating submerged are said to have broached the surface when a portion of the ship (such as the sail, bow, or screw) other than a mast or antenna comes out of the water. This is similar in intent, if not in 3-D direction, to the use of broach to describe instability in heading of a sailing ship.
Benny, what you discribed is being pitch
poled. You can be pitch poled and not broach and you may broach without being pitch poled. these are fine points and purely academic, because when it happens there are several things that you find that you need to do, changing your underwear not the least of them.
poled. You can be pitch poled and not broach and you may broach without being pitch poled. these are fine points and purely academic, because when it happens there are several things that you find that you need to do, changing your underwear not the least of them.
broaching - revisted
Richard.... Rather than compose a new response, I am taking the easy way and posting some comments I made last June about broaching. The link will take you to the complete thread. Good luck "broaching" Broaching normally occurs when sailing off the wind in gusty conditions. The gusts cause excessive heel and sudden bursts of weather helm, putting the vessel out of balance. The boat will start to spin out of control as it tries to round up into the wind. In heavy seas the beam-to exposure to the waves may lead to a capsize/knockdown. To avoid broaching, try to anticipate those sudden increases in weather helm and try to keep the boat flat, as in not heeling. Use the foredeck's relationship to the horizon for reference. Needless to say, you should reduce sail if the boat feels difficult to control. If the boat starts to round up, straighten the helm quickly to reattach flow and collapse the sails to pop the boat upright. Once the boat straightens up you should use the remaining speed to bear off on a broad reach so you don't round up again or jibe-broach. Re trim the sails front to back. "collapsing the sails.." Sorry, that might be confusing. I just mean to spill the air out of them, which means you'll certainly have to release the vang and sheet on the main and let the spinnaker halyard and guy go a bit until the sails are depowered. Reattching the flow to the rudder is utmost, most of us will keep pulling to offset the heavy weather helm. My teachers recommend putting the rudder amidship and dumping the air out of the sails until control is regained.
Richard.... Rather than compose a new response, I am taking the easy way and posting some comments I made last June about broaching. The link will take you to the complete thread. Good luck "broaching" Broaching normally occurs when sailing off the wind in gusty conditions. The gusts cause excessive heel and sudden bursts of weather helm, putting the vessel out of balance. The boat will start to spin out of control as it tries to round up into the wind. In heavy seas the beam-to exposure to the waves may lead to a capsize/knockdown. To avoid broaching, try to anticipate those sudden increases in weather helm and try to keep the boat flat, as in not heeling. Use the foredeck's relationship to the horizon for reference. Needless to say, you should reduce sail if the boat feels difficult to control. If the boat starts to round up, straighten the helm quickly to reattach flow and collapse the sails to pop the boat upright. Once the boat straightens up you should use the remaining speed to bear off on a broad reach so you don't round up again or jibe-broach. Re trim the sails front to back. "collapsing the sails.." Sorry, that might be confusing. I just mean to spill the air out of them, which means you'll certainly have to release the vang and sheet on the main and let the spinnaker halyard and guy go a bit until the sails are depowered. Reattching the flow to the rudder is utmost, most of us will keep pulling to offset the heavy weather helm. My teachers recommend putting the rudder amidship and dumping the air out of the sails until control is regained.
It was just my intention; to bring forth the
seriousness and the danger a broach in foul weather constitutes. The action I previously described is what I have always known to be referred as a broach. It was meant as a warning to new sailors and a reminder to all of the dangers of running in front of heavy weather. The loss of steering comes up suddenly and once control is lost the consequences can be dire. Reduce or drop sail, control your speed or heave to. Hope this will help someone.
seriousness and the danger a broach in foul weather constitutes. The action I previously described is what I have always known to be referred as a broach. It was meant as a warning to new sailors and a reminder to all of the dangers of running in front of heavy weather. The loss of steering comes up suddenly and once control is lost the consequences can be dire. Reduce or drop sail, control your speed or heave to. Hope this will help someone.
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