Amp draw on a marine AM/FM stereo/Ipod player?

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Sep 5, 2007
689
MacGregor 26X Rochester
Bear in mind it takes roughly 10 times the power to the speakers to double the perceived volume. That normally only matters at higher listening levels, as it takes relatively puny power input to the speakers to listen at low levels, but it gets up there quickly as you turn the volume up.
 
Jul 23, 2009
879
Beneteau 31 Oceanis Grand Lake, Oklahoma
Most "car" stereos will only draw 4 amps max. 2 amps under normal usage is about right.

When I turn the music up on my boat I'm drawing about 5 amps. I have a seperate amplifier and 6 speakers. I only do this under sail, I don't want to bother others ( but I probably still do).

Phil - Do you work for Stillwater Designs?
 
Dec 11, 2008
1,338
catalina C27 stillwater
Most "car" stereos will only draw 4 amps max. 2 amps under normal usage is about right.

When I turn the music up on my boat I'm drawing about 5 amps. I have a seperate amplifier and 6 speakers. I only do this under sail, I don't want to bother others ( but I probably still do).

Phil - Do you work for Stillwater Designs?
I do. I am the Marine and Specialty Markets Sales Manager and am the Marine Products Line Manager.
 
Oct 14, 2005
2,191
1983 Hunter H34 North East, MD
Centerline...

My ammeter reads about the same as Bluesharp's readings when my stereo is in use.
 
Mar 20, 2012
3,983
Cal 34-III, MacGregor 25 Salem, Oregon
My ammeter reads about the same as Bluesharp's readings when my stereo is in use.
thanks to all for the help.... when I called pioneer they said the maximum should be up to, but no more than 6-7 amps... it has a 10 amp fuse. no specifics... I learned more from the experienced folks and all of their knowledge on this website:D

as I play it very quiet, I will plan on the usage at about 1.5A and that should reasonably get me to where i wanna go....
 

walt

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Jun 1, 2007
3,535
Macgregor 26S Hobie TI Ridgway Colorado
1.5 amps - good number. I can’t listen to my stereo past about 2.5 amps because of distortion.

FYI, if you have any wire length run between the battery and the stereo, you can improve the higher volume audio distortion by adding a 10,000 uf cap as close to the stereo as possible on the 12 volt line. Here is an example http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/SLPX103M035E3P3/338-1567-ND/1882044 These are polarity sensitive and this one would go off about like a cherry bomb if hooked up backwards..

Car stereos have little power supply filtering because of both cost and generally the DC power run is short in a car. On the boat you likely have a longer DC wire run and at the low currents, don’t need heavy gauge wire. But the resistance and inductance of the wire does result in more audio distortion especially at higher volumes and the big cap cleans this up.

(I have a cap like this on the DC power to my boat car stereo and it is a clean sound)
 
Dec 11, 2008
1,338
catalina C27 stillwater
Walt-

Don't take this as contrarian, unless you want to... :) I just want to add to the discussion re: capacitors. I don't fully agree, but I do know there is a time and a place!

A cap is often good for power supply filtering, especially if you have solenoid-controlled valves, or other controls where electromagnetic fields collapse upon de-energizing mudding up your DC power lines with AC spikes and ripples... The cap will absorb the transient spike and prevents pops from being audible in the audio system. We usually recommend installing the caps at the offending source though, to prevent that noise from getting into other electronics on the common power wiring. We will also often recommend non-polar caps, to prevent the cherry bomb issue... :)
For power boats the common culprits are trim circuits and ballast pump valves, FYI.

That being said, if a cap, (sometimes referred to as a stiffening cap) is installed only to improve the voltage supply due to less than desirable audio perfornance, it can usually be found to be simply a band-aid for poor power wiring. Often big caps are sold in the car stereo market to be installed right next to the amplifiers. These can improve the sound in some instances and installs... Thing is, we can usually go to that same installation and clean up, starighten, and install proper-sized power wire, and the symptoms that warranted the cap usually go away.

While it is a realtively cheap, and usually pretty easy installation, a cap is still a bandaid in my opinion. I will not recommend a cap be installed unless other remedies, including inspection of suspect power wiring, prove insufficient.
 

walt

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Jun 1, 2007
3,535
Macgregor 26S Hobie TI Ridgway Colorado
You might have missed the point, not really a bandaid application here. The cap is for someone who wants a little better THD in the audio. A lot of people might not even be able to tell if the cap is in or not but I can.
 
Dec 11, 2008
1,338
catalina C27 stillwater
You might have missed the point, not really a bandaid application here. The cap is for someone who wants a little better THD in the audio. A lot of people might not even be able to tell if the cap is in or not but I can.
So you are just augmenting power supply filtering inside the radio? I know of situations where that is a benefit for amplified systems, and I often recommend folks take their head unit power right from the power terminals of their biggest power amplifier. There is some small benefit to using the filtering that lives inside the amp. A bigger benefit is to provide 12V power for all units, amps, radios, EQs, crossovers, etc. that is closer to the same power and ground voltage.

What brand radio are you using?
 

walt

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Jun 1, 2007
3,535
Macgregor 26S Hobie TI Ridgway Colorado
So you are just augmenting power supply filtering inside the radio?


Yes. My initial post is all I wanted to say here so I’m hoping bail on the conversation about my particular stereo. I used to be the main A/V electronics designer for a satellite set top box company so am possibly a little picky about THD. Simply the longer DC power wire runs that end up in a boat compared to a car can result in enough resistance and inductance in the wire that it influences the DC voltage to the power amp and can cause some distortion particularly at higher volume and frequency. As you pointed out, you can get the same results with a larger diameter wire and a shorter run to the battery.
 

druid

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Apr 22, 2009
837
Ontario 32 Pender Harbour
Phil's long post is interesting, but mostly wrong ;)

First, if the amp is powered by 12 VDC, the AC voltage it can put out is a MAX of 12V - Peak-to-peak. That's 6V peak, or 4.2V RMS. Into 4 ohms, that's about 4 Watts. Using 4 speakers, that's 16 watts total, and assuming about 80% efficiency, input power is 20 Watts, which is 1.67 A at 12 VDC.

Now, there's a whole PILE of things wrong with that analysis. First, that would be MAX power - most folks don't listen to music with the amp pinned at the rails. Second, it doesn't take into consideration the power needed to run the CD (ever notice the CD player gets pretty hot? That heat energy has to come from somewhere...). And thirdly, most amps don't work that way.

The first cheap-and-nasty method for getting more power is to "bridge" - use two amps 180 degrees out of phase to drive the speakers (this can only be done if NEITHER speaker wire is grounded). That will double the output power. Second way is to use a transformer on the output so the amp sees, say, 1 Ohm. 4V across 1 Ohm is 16 Watts (per channel) so you've doubled your output. Problem is transformers are not kind to music. So: third option - use a switching power supply to give you whatever voltage you want on your rails (including +/-). That's the way the subwoofer amps get SO much power.

But all that is not really germaine to this discussion, since as I said: nobody drives their amps that hard (at least not for long... ;) )

I agree with the 1-2A, a bit more if running a CD player. A half-decent subwoofer amp will pull at least 4A in addition.

druid
 
Feb 26, 2004
22,982
Catalina 34 224 Maple Bay, BC, Canada
A half-decent subwoofer amp will pull at least 4A in addition.
That is simply not been my experience. I'm below 2.0A even with the CD AND the powered subwoofer operating (seen on my Link 2000). At a goodly volume, too.

And, it appears that this entire discussion has been in response to a question about what figure should be used for an energy budget. Actual methods of "pre-calculating" just how the actual amperage gets produced has been very interesting. But pretty meaningless when subjected to both real world experiences with quality battery monitors, as well as the original question.
 
Dec 11, 2008
1,338
catalina C27 stillwater
Phil's long post is interesting, but mostly wrong ;)

First, if the amp is powered by 12 VDC, the AC voltage it can put out is a MAX of 12V - Peak-to-peak. That's 6V peak, or 4.2V RMS. Into 4 ohms, that's about 4 Watts. Using 4 speakers, that's 16 watts total, and assuming about 80% efficiency, input power is 20 Watts, which is 1.67 A at 12 VDC.

Now, there's a whole PILE of things wrong with that analysis. First, that would be MAX power - most folks don't listen to music with the amp pinned at the rails. Second, it doesn't take into consideration the power needed to run the CD (ever notice the CD player gets pretty hot? That heat energy has to come from somewhere...). And thirdly, most amps don't work that way.

The first cheap-and-nasty method for getting more power is to "bridge" - use two amps 180 degrees out of phase to drive the speakers (this can only be done if NEITHER speaker wire is grounded). That will double the output power. Second way is to use a transformer on the output so the amp sees, say, 1 Ohm. 4V across 1 Ohm is 16 Watts (per channel) so you've doubled your output. Problem is transformers are not kind to music. So: third option - use a switching power supply to give you whatever voltage you want on your rails (including +/-). That's the way the subwoofer amps get SO much power.

But all that is not really germaine to this discussion, since as I said: nobody drives their amps that hard (at least not for long... ;) )

I agree with the 1-2A, a bit more if running a CD player. A half-decent subwoofer amp will pull at least 4A in addition.

druid
Come on druid, my long post is absolutely RIGHT in that it dispels the notion that a radio with a 10A fuse can put out the 200watts often claimed on the packaging. :dance:

I used two different scenarios, one running backwards from the 4-ohm speaker assuming 12-volts as the rail, and the other scenario running forwards from the supplied fuse. I clearly state that the math I am using uses a theoretically impossible 100% efficiency scenario, which leave zero power to operate the tuner or the display lights. Go re-read it all... :) I think you will agree with me on a thorough reading that I am on a same page with you and that you can never get either 144 watts or 120 watts out of a radio....


So, just to be thorough in my defense, ( I know, I am not on trial... :D):
Go to my first post, (#12) and see that I am advocating that for a power budgeting exercise, one can use half the supplied fuse value as a worst-case current draw. For a radio with a 10A fuse, you can expect that it might in some instances pull a constant of 5A. I also provide scenarios where we will use less current than our teenagers...

In post 17 I point to the fact that the measured voltage at the speaker outputs is going to sometimes be 6-7 volts. How do I know this? I have measured it. I work in the 12-volt audio industry and at one point was a transducer, (loudspeaker) engineer. We used actual car radios and rolled them up to whatever X-power we needed, using an AC RMS meter in parallel with the test speakers . Trust me on this one.. :)

I also just called my buddy who is the marine distributor for a major marine radio brand just now. He verified RMS output of his marine radio at 7-7.5 volts. He always has one on the bench so it was easy to go get an AC RMS voltage measurement real quickly. The industry standard rating for this particular radio is 17 watts at 4-ohms each channel, all channels driven. The spec is written with an engine-running voltage of 14.4, so we are not going to get that on a sailboat while sailing, but it will be more than the 4 you suggest.

So....

Tangents aside, I want to go back and simply state that for energy budgeting, if you assume 5A, you will be safe, totally safe. That has run resonant with everone chiming in with 2A values.

Tangets included, (my long post) there is no way to get the crazy power outputs that the radio cartons claim!

I know it sounds funnny to be bashing my own industry, but luckily I work for a company that only makes amps and speakers. I can bash the radio guys all I want! :D

Have a good weekend man!
 

kenn

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Apr 18, 2009
1,271
CL Sandpiper 565 Toronto
Wow, this has devolved into an electronic pissing match...

Must-stay-out... must -resist.... :cry: Auuugh, too weak

The first cheap-and-nasty method for getting more power is to "bridge" - use two amps 180 degrees out of phase to drive the speakers (this can only be done if NEITHER speaker wire is grounded). That will double the output power.
Bridging isn't at all nasty; but certainly economic. Bridging doubles the output voltage, which means that potential max output power is quadrupled into the same load (P = V**2/R)

druid said:
Second way is to use a transformer on the output so the amp sees, say, 1 Ohm. 4V across 1 Ohm is 16 Watts (per channel) so you've doubled your output. Problem is transformers are not kind to music.
Transformers don't materially increase/decrease power, they can improve the match between output and load so that more power is transferred into the load. The problem with your example is that you need an amp capable of efficiently driving a 1 ohm load... they're not common, and a 1 ohm to 4 ohm transformer isn't commercially practical.

Also, big, well-designed transformers are very kind to audio. (example- any tube hifi). Small, commercially practical transformers, not quite as much, although I would still bet that for FM, CD and MP3 (yecch) listening on a boat, 99.9% of users would be entirely satisfied. Alas, the cost and weight of appropriate transformers are still too high for auto or marine installations.

Anyway I suspect both you guys know your stuff; the format and nature of advice forums seems to make it hard to strike the right balance of practicality and theoretical purity. :)
 
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Jul 23, 2009
879
Beneteau 31 Oceanis Grand Lake, Oklahoma
I just checked the amp draw on my stereo setup. CD playing Boston, 4 main speakers, 1 extermal amp to 2 small speakers crossed above 100hz. Measured with a clamp on Fluke 337 meter. Battery charger off. Low volume 1.2 - 1.3 amps. High 3.8 - 5.5 amps depending on the music. Blasting 5.5 - 7.8 amps depending on the music.

I checked the draw on my Johnson 9.9 2-stroke OB starter motor at about 38 amps steady state cranking.
 
Jun 6, 2006
6,990
currently boatless wishing Harrington Harbor North, MD
Watts accustic aint watts electrical.
An electrical watt is 1 amp times 1 volt or any combination that mathematically works out from Power = volts time amps
Acoustic watts are a strange beasty and can only be measured with an acoustic watt meter. Seems that sound waves actually move power around but not in a volts time amps fashion so a watt of acoustic power is nowhere near a watt electrical. ie the acoustic watts are always much higher than any electrical wattage you might be pushing. It is a gimmick by the stereo manufacturers to promote their products. nobody want s 10 watt stereo, that is not enough to power a decent light bulb...... or so the thinking goes.
My stereo is wired through the ammeter and it does not even move the needle even with full power. It is a 100 watt "acoustic" watt stereo. A needle width on my ammeter is about 0.125 amp
 

kenn

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Apr 18, 2009
1,271
CL Sandpiper 565 Toronto
Watts accustic aint watts electrical.
To be clear, no one in this thread has mentioned 'acoustic' watts; output power has only been expressed as an amplifier's output into the electrical load, which happen to be speakers.
 
Dec 11, 2008
1,338
catalina C27 stillwater
Watts accustic aint watts electrical.
An electrical watt is 1 amp times 1 volt or any combination that mathematically works out from Power = volts time amps
Acoustic watts are a strange beasty and can only be measured with an acoustic watt meter. Seems that sound waves actually move power around but not in a volts time amps fashion so a watt of acoustic power is nowhere near a watt electrical. ie the acoustic watts are always much higher than any electrical wattage you might be pushing. It is a gimmick by the stereo manufacturers to promote their products. nobody want s 10 watt stereo, that is not enough to power a decent light bulb...... or so the thinking goes.
My stereo is wired through the ammeter and it does not even move the needle even with full power. It is a 100 watt "acoustic" watt stereo. A needle width on my ammeter is about 0.125 amp
Bill-

This is so far off topic... :D Still you bring it up...

There really is such a thing as an acoustic Watt. Go here to learn about it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_power There is however no conspiracy by the electronics manufacturers to use acoustic Watts. When you see the graph you will understand why. No radio or amplifier manufacturer would want to advertise their item as being capable of producing 1/1000th of a Watt out of any speaker.... As a side note, if they chose to, it would be completely wrong, as the acoustic Wattage output would be transducer /speaker dependent. :redface:

As an industry we state output from electronic devices as electrical Watts. We state and measure speaker output in decibels. To use acoustic watts would be foolish and provide a highly unreliable amd meaninglessly small number to use.

There are lesser-known and basically unknown manufacturers out there who use trickery in advertising their goods. One can have a model 5000W amplifer, where "5000W' is simply the alpha-numeric expression of the model number, but has nothing to do with any real measurable output.

I have seen little electronic devices with big steel slugs mounted inside for weight, that had power connections to operate the LED lights, and had not much more than a transformer inside... The "heat sink" had the phrase 100W + 100W = 200W screen printed on it. While this is a mathematically accurate statement where "W" is smply a variable, it too had nothing to do with any power output from the device.... :D

I have also seen devices that were advertised as 100-Watt devices. Super... That statement of power consumption did a completely accurate job of telling the consumer how much power the item USED, but spoke nothing to how much it put out....

Now since we are so far off topic, know there are lots of analogs between acoustic devices and some electrical counterparts. A horn like found on a PA enclousre is quite similar in analogy to an electrical transformer where voltage and current can be manipulated inversely. The horn takes very high pressure and very high velocity air and trades velocity for amplitude. A woofer in a sealed enclosure can be seen to be analogous to a first-order circuit where a capacitor is in series with a load to block low frequencies. Similarly a woofer in a vented enclosure, (Helmholtz Resonator) can be seen to be analogous to a circuit that contains a series capacitor and a parallel inductor tied to a load.

Ironically, there has even been work on an acoustic amplifier! In the years preceeding the Apollo Space Program, the Ling Corporation, (historically tied to Altec Lansing, Lansing corp, James B. Lansing, JBL) developed a "relatively" high-speed variable valve that was used to modulate a high-pressure column of air. By "relatively" high speed, the valve would not go above some very low frequency, maybe 200 Hz as I recall from reading about it... The pressurized air was contained in a big tank, basically a giant compressor tank. The valve was connected to a very large horn. The tank,valve, and horn were the acoustic analog to a single-ended triode tube audio amplifier. The tank and valve were push-push only, not push pull like a class A/B amp, but the valve was directly coupled to a giant horn (again, think transformer).... They simply skipped the loudspeaker, since they were modulating air-pressure and sound directly. They used these devices to simulate rockets at take off, to determine probable damage by acoustic energy at differeng distances to determine safe distances for people, structures etc...

Anyway, I have taken this thread about as far out on a tangent away from the OP's intent as anyone ever has. So sorry, but hopefully my input is amusing, if possiblly enlightening! ;)
 
Oct 17, 2011
2,809
Ericson 29 Southport..
Shoot, I'm enjoying it Phil. I'm starting to feel like I know something about this now.

(Well, maybe not. But I've got a few more highly technical sounding words in my vocabulary though).
 
Jun 6, 2006
6,990
currently boatless wishing Harrington Harbor North, MD
hey all
I only brought it up because someone mentioned that a "200 watt stereo could not possibly be protected by a 10 amp fues" Meaning that his 200 watts would be 200 = 12 volts * 16.6 amps. Course those are electrical amps not the ones the manufactures quote for comparing their units. He/she was trying to make the 200 "watts" (could be a model number if you follow Phil's post) of sound output equal to the power required for the unit to run.
I'm confident that ALL the "wattages" quoted are not accurate.
Again, my "50 watt" (I can make if uncomfortable in both the cabin and cockpit so "50 watts" = "really loud") does not even read on my ammeter at full volume.
 
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