alternators/regulators & solar panels

Nov 26, 2008
1,970
Endeavour 42 Cruisin
Just had a chat with Balmar about my ARS-5. I'm told that if my solar panels are putting out 14.6 volts, the ARS 5 regulator will totally stop the alt from charging. Doesn't matter what the state of charge is. The regulator only looks at voltage. If the solar panel/MPPT controller is outputting 14.6 volts I'll get zip from the alternator.

How can I make sure my solar (and wind gen) won't stop my engine alternator from contributing when the house bank is low?

Solar is currently 280 watts and I will be adding 200 watts more and a second MPPT controller.
Wind gen is an Air Breeze with internal regulator.
Alternator is 100 amps with ARS 5 regulator
House bank is 900 amps.

Thnx!
 
Feb 6, 1998
11,701
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
GT,

You were given misleading information. The only time the solar panels can shut down the alt is when you are at a VERY HIGH state of charge and the solar panels EXCEEDS the acceptance of your battery bank for a given voltage set point..

Currently your solar array is about 1.7% of the banks capacity so it should take them a loooong time to bring the bank to 14.6V.. Add more current to the mix and the battery voltage will come up faster.

Voltage regulators simply limit voltage, there's no magic. Controllers and wind gens do the same thing. This is all they do and they do it by pulsing the current on/off. If the voltage starts to overshoot you can see the current drop all together. On the other hand if the bank has not yet reached "absorption" then the controller, alt and wind are pumping out what ever they can or the bank will accept because the voltage "limit" has not yet been met..

With a 900Ah bank you'd need to be well into the upper 90% SOC range before the solar controller could keep the bank voltage that high. It is a current/charge capacity ratio as to when you hit absorption voltage. And this is with no loads on. Add loads to the system and you have less available current to the bank to maintain an absorption voltage. The higher the bank voltage the more current required to get it there quickly and then hold it there.

At any point below the panels exceeding the banks acceptance for a certain voltage limit the alt and reg & wind will all supply current.

As an example I have a 100Ah battery on my bench right now. It has been on float for a couple of weeks it is as full as it will ever get.

At 13.2V it accepts/needs 0.07A to maintain 13.2V
At 14.6V it accepts/needs 0.8A to maintain 14.6V

As a ball park estimate if we were to multiply that X 9 for your 900Ah bank we'd have a "full" acceptance rate of about 7.2A just to maintain 14.6V.. This should be close to what your bank may require to maintain 14.6V when 100% full. Every bank will be slightly different depending upon state of health etc.. This is an acceptance of .8% on a 900Ah bank when full.

If you take 2%, the number often bantered around that is as "full as it gets" on a cruising boat you are at roughly 18A at 14.6V... So even at 98% SOC and 14.6V your banks acceptance likely exceeds what your current panels can pump out. Hence I'd be surprised to see your bank even hit 14.6V until upwards of 95+% SOC charging with only solar.

In bulk, which is your devices pumping out constant current because you've not yet hit the "limiting voltage", your bank will accept about 225A of charge current. At 225A of charge current your banks would come up to 14.6V at about 70% -80% SOC give or take. However when you have less current available the banks will not hit absorption voltage until a higher state of charge. When you hit "absorption voltage" depends upon the current you have available and the voltage set point/acceptance..

Contrary to popular misconceptions batteries do not just jump to 14.6V when you apply current to them especially if they are below 70%-80% SOC. If they do they are sulfated. If applying low current eg: 1.7% of capacity, it will take a LOOOOOONG time to get to 14.6V..

In bulk mode, usually between 50% and 85% SOC, all of your devices will supply current because you don't have the capacity or SOC to even get to absorption voltage until you hit a higher state of charge and the acceptance and available current merge to hit voltage. Once you hit absorption voltage the controller or regulator with the highest set point wins and the others will shut off the field current or disconnect from the array until the voltage falls again.

However if the controller with the highest set point can't maintain that voltage, because it has low current ability, the voltage will fall and the alternator will kick back on and bring the voltage back up to its limit. When you get to a voltage where the solar panel can maintain the bank at 14.6V you really don't need the alt....

The easy tweak is to simply program your solar controller 0.1V lower than the alt reg if you want the alt doing the finish charging when the motor is running..
 
Nov 26, 2008
1,970
Endeavour 42 Cruisin
MS

Could you be more specific? :)

Blue Sky 2512 controller; acceptance rate is listed at 14.2v but it does not say what the bulk rate is.

Thanks much!
 
Jun 6, 2006
6,990
currently boatless wishing Harrington Harbor North, MD
Another way to say what MS is saying is the yes IF your solar panels put out 14.6 then the alternator would shut down. But that is not going to happen unless the batts are pretty highly charged and then it really does not matter as the panels are charging them as much as the alternator would be.
 
Feb 6, 1998
11,701
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
MS

Could you be more specific? :)

Blue Sky 2512 controller; acceptance rate is listed at 14.2v but it does not say what the bulk rate is.

Thanks much!
There is no bulk voltage. Bulk is constant current/what ever the panels can put out, and ends when the battery terminal voltage = "absorption" voltage set point.

Ignore Balmar when they talk of "bulk voltage" bulk is constant current and is not voltage limited until you hit the absorption set point. At that point the controller begins "limiting" battery voltage to 14.2V.

Bulk = constant current
Absorption = voltage limiting
Float = further voltage limiting

Personally I find 14.2V a tad low for your batteries. Trojan suggest 14.6V - 14.8V for absorption. For the solar I would rather see 14.4V or so. For the Balmar run the reg to 14.7 bulk 1 and extend the time to max then go to 14.5V for bulk #2 and extend it out to max..

If you have a 2512i or 2512iX you should be able to add the IPN Pro Remote. This remote allows full programming of the controller and also acts as a pseudo battery monitor and tracks performance etc. They are pricey but open up a lot of flexibility to the 2512i /iX series controllers.

The IPN Pro Remote plugs in where the gray wire is... This is a 2512iX with optional temp sensor and was wired to an IPN Pro Remote.


 
Feb 6, 1998
11,701
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
Another way to say what MS is saying is the yes IF your solar panels put out 14.6 then the alternator would shut down. But that is not going to happen unless the batts are pretty highly charged and then it really does not matter as the panels are charging them as much as the alternator would be.
Yep!:D
 
Oct 2, 2008
3,810
Pearson/ 530 Strafford, NH
I was just caught up in this same question. While motor sailing all day the house bank wasn't charged at the end of the day. In fact while running the generator I was able to put a charge into the house bank. I suspect there may be an issue with the regulator. Would my next step be to undo the solar panel feed and check the alternator output?
All U Get
 
Nov 26, 2008
1,970
Endeavour 42 Cruisin
I have the basic 2512 solar boost. I can't find any mention of adjusting output; it says '14.2vdc fixed value"0'

I did not see a 'bulk 2' on the ARS 5 regulator. Did you mean absorption voltage?

Bulk 1 max time is 6 hours

I'm thinking I should get a temp sensor. Pushing the 100 amp alt at full rate for 6 hours could be very hard on it. Although I don't drop below 40% SOC (rarely at that) which would be about 400 amp/hrs. It would pump 100 amps till it reaches 80% right? So that would be about 3 hours at full power, worst case?
 
Feb 6, 1998
11,701
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
I have the basic 2512 solar boost. I can't find any mention of adjusting output; it says '14.2vdc fixed value"0'
Without the IPN Pro Remote you are stuck with what you get, 14.2V....

I did not see a 'bulk 2' on the ARS 5 regulator. Did you mean absorption voltage?

Bulk 1 max time is 6 hours
Yes push the bulk to 6 and the absorption to the same. I normally install the 612 & 614 where they call it, incorrectly, bulk 1 & bulk 2... Any voltage set point is technically "absorption" but the marketing guys probably sell more regulators by having a "bulk" voltage....

I'm thinking I should get a temp sensor. Pushing the 100 amp alt at full rate for 6 hours could be very hard on it. Although I don't drop below 40% SOC (rarely at that) which would be about 400 amp/hrs. It would pump 100 amps till it reaches 80% right? So that would be about 3 hours at full power, worst case?
Absolutely get a temp sensor....
 
Nov 26, 2008
1,970
Endeavour 42 Cruisin
So should I change the absorption voltage level?

Will the balmar temp sensor work with any generic alt?
 
Feb 26, 2004
22,984
Catalina 34 224 Maple Bay, BC, Canada
The temperature sensor is simply an on/off switch and is an automatic method of employing the "Small Engine Mode." Least it is on my MC-612.

Ah, yes, page 13 of the ARS-5 Manual.
 
Feb 6, 1998
11,701
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
So should I change the absorption voltage level?


Yes change bulk and absorption voltages and the time they are in those modes. With a 900Ah bank and 100A alt you need as much absorption time as possible.


Will the balmar temp sensor work with any generic alt?

The Balmar temp sensor senses temperature of the alternator, any alternator, not the brand....:D
 
Jun 6, 2006
6,990
currently boatless wishing Harrington Harbor North, MD
All this discussion begs understanding of how an alternator/regulator (smart please) works.
You start the motor and the regulator begins to bulk charge the batts. There are two possibilities, the bats need bulk charged or they don't. If they need bulk charged the voltage will not "come up" to 14.4. If they are charged enough to not need bulk charge then the voltage will rapidly come up to 14.4 volts. After some short time, like a few minutes, the regulator measures the voltage the alternator is outputting and if it is above 14.4 then it goes to absorption mode if it is below 14.4 the it continues to full field the alternator rotor for "max current bulk charging". it repeats this every few minutes to check if the bats have reached the 14.4 volt limit and switches to absorption charging when it does. When absorption charging, it is in constant voltage (varies on batt type) charge so the regulator is acting to control the alternator rotor current to make it produce a constant voltage. this is a timed event, the regulator "knows" it just started absorption charging and begins to constant voltage charge for a fixed time period. After that period is over it turns off the alternator for a few moments and measures the battery "resting" voltage. It is not really a resting voltage but it does know that there is a relationship between the real resting voltage and the "just off absorption charge" "voltage. If the "just off charge" voltage is high enough it goes into float charge mode. If not the it absorption charges for another fixed time period. When it finally goes to float charge it simply reduces the voltage produce to 13.6 or such until it is turned off.
If you have an A5 you can watch this on the display.
 
Feb 6, 1998
11,701
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
They monitor the voltage multiple times per second.... They are always monitoring voltage. Smarter ones also know the % field and other parameters such as how long it took to come up to the voltage limiting point etc.... Most of these units go into float way, way too early. Float should not occur until the batteries are accepting roughly 2% of capacity @ absorption voltage. Sadly for most folks the factory programs, because they are largely based on time, and built to be as safe as possible are usually cheating owners of charge current because they enter float far to early. Less voltage, in float, means less current and extended charge times not shorter. I fix this about once every other week. Proper programming is critical to make these regulators work as well as they should.

"Premature efloatulation" is one of my biggest pet peeves with external regulators. What setting may work for a 200Ah bank works like crap on a 900Ah bank.. Usually, no make that in almost every case, the absorption voltage periods need to be greatly extended beyond the factories one size fits all settings...

What you are seeing when it goes from absorption voltage to float is not "shutting off the current to check the resting voltage" it is the current being shut off to allow the battery to fall to the new lower voltage. Once the battery terminal voltage falls/drops to the new lower setting the current comes back on at the current need to maintain but not over shoot the new lower voltage setting. This fall in voltage can take up to a few minutes or just a few seconds depending upon loads on the system, type of batteries and the float voltage set point.
 
Feb 6, 1998
11,701
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
GT,

Perhaps this video will help.. Sometimes it is tough to explain through writing.

 
Feb 26, 2004
22,984
Catalina 34 224 Maple Bay, BC, Canada
In addition to Maine Sail's great presentation and discussion, you could also read the manual for the regulator, there are, IIRC, two pages devoted to explaining how it works. The programing methods are also clearly described. Changing the time for the higher voltage charging, whatever one may call them, is a good idea for a large(r) bank.

Another way to describe the factory presets, regardless of what they might be, is called, in "computer-eeze" : the DEFAULT values. You adjust them to suit your electrical system.
 
Nov 26, 2008
1,970
Endeavour 42 Cruisin
Holy Voltage Batman!

My own personal instruction video! Nicely done. Need a job as a narrator?

In defense of the Balmar tech, he did say that it depended on all the other factors; panel size, charge controller, battery size, etc and they don't go there for tech support. So they are limited in system diag.

I successfully changed the bulk rate and time. I'll get to absorption tomorrow while sitting out some high winds on the bay. Also got the stator wiring squared, now I have proper tach function too!

So the wind gen is set to 14.1, the solar charger is set to 14.2 and the alternator is set to 14.7. You already informed me of the need to reset my Victron frequently. I do that when at 100% and the voltage is over 14.2.

I'm not burning very much water in the batteries and last time I did an equalization, specific gravity did not rise over the 2 hours from the approximately 1.26 level.

I think I'll be adding around 200w more of solar and another charge controller. Can I stick with the same Blue Sky controller?

Now if I could magically get double the insulation into my refer box...
 
Nov 26, 2008
1,970
Endeavour 42 Cruisin
Read the balmar manual? Maybe you can make sense of it but I found it pretty difficult to decipher. I get about half of it. Plus a lot of it is very generic, without specific scenarios for different setups.
Yes they tell you how to change settings but not much info on the what settings & why.

Thanks all for the help. Pain Killers all around!
 
Feb 6, 1998
11,701
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
Holy Voltage Batman!

My own personal instruction video! Nicely done. Need a job as a narrator?

Least I could do for the hospitality you and the Admiral gave me!! Did the video help with the voltage/current/acceptance thing?? I find when I have customers in my shop, and I walk through that with them, a bell sort of goes off....
 
Nov 26, 2008
1,970
Endeavour 42 Cruisin
Bells have been going off in my head for a very long time!

Yes the vid was very instructional, I also used it to help the admiral with understanding lower voltage readings on the victron when the frig is running.

Reset the acceptance voltage to 14.5 & 6 hours today. We should be good for now.

Thanks again!