all lines back to cockpit ??????

[koolfrog]

I have been mulling the idea of leading all the control lines back to the cockpit of my Allied Seabreeze , convinced , until now that it would make singlehandling her much easier ,but looking at Jessica Watsonn S&S, with sealed hard dodger and all winches and lines , still on the mast......I wonder ?
Has anyone led everything , back to the cockpit , and decided , afterwards , that the benefits were not that great afterall ?

 

[Ed Schenck]

Funny that you should ask. Many years ago I purchased all the hardware to do exactly that. Lots of money sitting in lockers and the basement in the form of winches, blocks, and clutches. I did finally install the two deck organizers and run the staysail sheet back. And it is easy on my boat to install the turning blocks at the mast base.

Still the halyards for staysail and main, the reefing lines, and the boom vang all live at the mast. I have sailed her for ten years in every kind of weather and condition. I recently brought her from Lake Erie to near Tampa. Much of that was in open Atlantic or Gulf. Never did I feel unsafe because the lines were not in the cockpit. Maybe it is because I am super cautious and reef before I have to.

The only time I was clipped on with waves filling my boots would not have been different. We left the whisker pole on late into the night with a building wind from the port stern. Nothing to do but go forward. Lines led back would not have helped. But what a ride!

 

[Roger Long]

I think it depends somewhat on whether you are strictly a fair weather sailor. I ideal conditions, you can lower your main from the cockpit and it will be a convenience. When you have to lower the main in less than ideal conditions however, you will probably need to be pulling down on the luff. Even if you have a fancy plastic aftermarket frictionless sail track, course dictated by seas or obstructions may have the sail pressed up against the stays. Now, unless you always have a crew that knows what they are doing without being shouted at, you'll be stuck with a cockpit led halyard. You'll end up running back and forth without the practice of having worked at the mast routinely.

I like the simplicity and lack of clutter of my simple reefing hooks at the tack. My clew reefing pendants run back to the cockpit because that is where I can get the most purchase to haul on them. Halyards are at the mast however as that's where I need to be to hook the tacks when reefing. You have to go up on deck anyway to tie the points.

Working a hoisting main at the mast is one of the last bits of seamanship left with roller headsails. Don't give it up. The practice of routinely working on deck may save your bacon in an emergency.

I got struck by a clear air squall last summer that heeled the boat over so far that the wind was blowing the sail UP the mast as I was frantically trying to claw it down. I was in confined waters and alone. If my boat had a halyard led to the cockpit, I could easily have ended up aground.

 

[Joe]

Regarding Jessica's set up, remind yourself that she is on a boat that will allow her to get to the mast and foredeck relatively easy... lots of hand holds and foot room. Also, note that she always refers to her "tethers"... that means she goes absolutely nowhere without being clipped on to the boat by a couple of straps.

Here's a couple of pics of Amy Sunderland's "wild eyes"... a completely different style of boat....Very Hi-tech... She'll be departing on her circumnavigation attempt shortly. Check out her serious mast mounted equipment.

That said, for my Catalina 27, I like the halyards and other control lines run back to the cockpit... I have a jib downhaul to help get the headsail down, but when dropping the main I often uncleat the halyard in the cockpit and go to the mast with it in my hand so I can flake the sail properly as I pull it down.

 

[sailingdog]

One person asked me about this exact point, and I pointed out that my third reef effectively works as a mainsail downhaul for most of the sail. The remaining bit above the third reef generally comes down by itself quite easily. I'd point out that the main halyard, outhaul, topping lift and reefing lines on my boat are all lead back to the cockpit.

I think it depends somewhat on whether you are strictly a fair weather sailor. I ideal conditions, you can lower your main from the cockpit and it will be a convenience. When you have to lower the main in less than ideal conditions however, you will probably need to be pulling down on the luff. Even if you have a fancy plastic aftermarket frictionless sail track, course dictated by seas or obstructions may have the sail pressed up against the stays. Now, unless you always have a crew that knows what they are doing without being shouted at, you'll be stuck with a cockpit led halyard. You'll end up running back and forth without the practice of having worked at the mast routinely.

I like the simplicity and lack of clutter of my simple reefing hooks at the tack. My clew reefing pendants run back to the cockpit because that is where I can get the most purchase to haul on them. Halyards are at the mast however as that's where I need to be to hook the tacks when reefing. You have to go up on deck anyway to tie the points.

Working a hoisting main at the mast is one of the last bits of seamanship left with roller headsails. Don't give it up. The practice of routinely working on deck may save your bacon in an emergency.

I got struck by a clear air squall last summer that heeled the boat over so far that the wind was blowing the sail UP the mast as I was frantically trying to claw it down. I was in confined waters and alone. If my boat had a halyard led to the cockpit, I could easily have ended up aground.

 

[Roger Long]

I'd point out that the main halyard, outhaul, topping lift and reefing lines on my boat are all lead back to the cockpit.

You've got all that beam to work with. I can't imagine what a clutter my cockpit would be with all that gear in it. It's bad enough with just reefing pendants, topping lift, jib halyard tension, and cunningham. More lines for tack reefing pendants would be too much. I know there are ways to make reefing work with a single line but I can't believe they are as fast and reliable as my set up. I value being able to put in a reef in a hurry. I can do it alone crossing the ship channel in Portland.

It can all be made to work running into the cockpit but the real bottom line is that working at the mast is the best exercise I get cruising and going up on deck makes it feel a lot more like sailing. When things do require I go up on deck, I'm glad for all the practice.

 

[Stu Jackson]

Your boat, your choice

So what we've done shouldn't apply, simply because of the fact that there are many of us "experienced" types and we can disagree on just about everything!!!

For instance, Roger wrote the original and I've modified it:

I like the simplicity and lack of clutter of my simple double line reefing lines at the cockpit. My clew reefing pendants run back to the cockpit because that is where I can get the most purchase to haul on them. The main Halyard is in the cockpit because I don't need to be on deck to hook the tacks when reefing. You never have to go up on deck anytime to tie the points, because they're optional; I rarely do it unless it's gonna be a long day or two.

Adding on: Our jib halyard is NOT led back because it's not something needed regularly with our furler. We have these lines led back: cunningham, vang, double line reefing lines (total: four), mainsheet, main halyard, traveler control lines and lazy jacks. Our main sail is on Harken batt cars and a track. I understand Roger's point about getting it down in less than perfect conditions, but am convinced that letting out the mainsheet and dumping the traveler could suffice to allow us to clear away enough in that situation. Heck, if you wait that long it might have been better to have taken the main down earlier, but there's always something going on, isn't there?

We have a Catalina 34, not a wide boat by any means.

 

[Cayennita]

Look at the 60 footers in the clipper around the world race. Everythingis at the mast and no roller furling headsails. They did it on purpose to make the crew go forward and gain confidence. My wife and I live and cruise on a 51 foot boat. Only the main sheet, genoa sheets and genoa furling lines are in the cockpit. We have two reef point on the main and retrievable lazy jacks. When we go sailing I deploy the lazy jacks right away and this eliminated having to worry about tieing the sail. Only problem is that if single handed then you need ease the main sheet before going forward-minor. It takes me about five minutes to reef. We have sailed from our home port in St Croix to Venezuela, Trinidad, up to Maine down to Key West, Guatemala and back to ST. Croix. Double reef with 50 knots and no jib, etc. At night always tethered. However I also have a 36 foot racing boat that has everything led to the cockpit. The pit man then controls all the lines except main and jib and spinnaker.

 

[Cayennita]

In a small boat, I would set it up with slab reefing. All led aft. Ease the halyard, pull down the luff reefing line, then the leach reefing line, raise the main and done. No need for a Kringle and hook. It can be done without winches except for the main halyard. You still need the kringle. Run a line from the base of the mast or gooseneck up through the kringle, down to a turning block at the base of the mast and back to a clutch. You would love it.

 

[Cayennita]

REMEMBER: IF YOU ARE THINKING ABOUT REEFING, YOU SHOULD HAVE DONE IT!
The owner of the 51'and the 36' is 70 years ols and still does all the work. Wife keeps an eye on the autopilot and the main sheet during the reefing

 

[JBerger]

My old sailboat was very basic -no lines to the cockpit except the jib sheets. We were new to sailing and my wife was petrified of going up on deck, so it was my task. But she was just as afraid to be at the helm with tiller steering. So I lead back the main haylard, with a downhaul, the vang line, topping lift, a single line reefing system, and even preventers. This was on a 30 yr old Buccaneer !. After that, she felt more secure, loved sailing, and we bought a Catalina 320. So the benefits of bringing lines aft, resulted in a great new boat. End of story.

 

[Roger Long]

I've got to say how much I appreciate the maturity and civility of this discussion. It's what I enjoy so much about SBO. Back when this was a topic of discussion on rec.boats.cruising, where I used to hang out, I was irresponsible, a danger to other vessels around me, the Department of Human Services should be contacted about my endangerment of my children, I should have my license as a boat designer revoked because I was advocating going forward on deck in a public forum, etc. Of course, as far as I can tell, none of the people posting those comments actually owned or sailed boats

Hmm, leading all my lines aft would make possible a nice big diesel cabin heater sitting right on the floor in the middle of the cabin. (See other thread)

I love going up on the deck though. It makes me feel young and neither the wind vane nor the people I usually have on as crew every complain. It's also nice to be able to hoist sail from somewhere else when I have a cockpit full of guests while daysailing.

 

[Stu Jackson]

I've got to say how much I appreciate the maturity and civility of this discussion.... Of course, as far as I can tell, none of the people posting those comments actually owned or sailed boats

Hmm, leading all my lines aft would make possible a nice big diesel cabin heater sitting right on the floor in the middle of the cabin. (See other thread)

I love going up on the deck though. It makes me feel young and neither the wind vane nor the people I usually have on as crew every complain. It's also nice to be able to hoist sail from somewhere else when I have a cockpit full of guests while daysailing.

Roger, I concur. A friend who has recently sailed his stock C34 from Vancouver, BC all the way to Mexico wrote this on his "1500 Mile Update":

I find it really interesting on the whole debate of what makes an offshore sail boat. It is unbelievable how much BS floats around and how many people have opinions but no experience based on the particular boat they happen to have an opinion on. I now believe it matters far more how the boat is prepared than what boat it is. Obviously you need a minimum standard in terms of hull integrity and rig strength and I think the Catalina 34 has that easily. The question is can the boat and crew be prepared for offshore? I believe the answer question lies only with the skipper who does the preparation. In our case, we have had a fairly good shakedown cruise and I rate the boat highly. I've had "experienced" sailors who were aghast that I would take my family with no offshore experience in a Catalina 34 from Vancouver to San Francisco - a nasty bit of coast. And it takes some serious thought to call bull#### and say you're up to the challenge having never sailed in an ocean swell. I've also had experienced sailors who say go to the Marquesas and you'll find a lot of less capable boats than yours crewed by Europeans having the time of their lives. And you'll also find North Americans with real fancy boats with a lot of broken bits waiting for parts.

I also find it amusing that some other boards have finger pointing know-nothings. Scary, but true.

If you get the heater, run its thermostat to the cockpit, too.:dance:

I use the lazy jacks as my excuse to go up on deck! I have enough line to stick them up by the mast, but only bother with that when racing (now in my past). We simply move the starboard side jacks to the mast before raising the main and have the wind come over the port side just a bit to avoid having the main catch on the lazy jacks. I have a choice of raising the main at the mast or in the cockpit. Recently found a great idea of using a cam cleat on the mast to allow easier choices on mainsail raising. See this: http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,4946.0.html

 

[sailingdog]

Roger's point about the beam of my boat is a very valid one, and if I had a monohull, rather than an 18' wide trimaran, I might have done things a bit differently. A lot of whether running the lines aft will make sense depends a lot on the specific boat, the specific sailor, the type of sailing they do, etc.

 

[Roger Long]

Roger's point about the beam of my boat is a very valid one

Another issue is the type of line. All the lines that lead back to my cockpit are ones with short ends in normal boat configuration. All lines that have big coils when sail is raised are up at the mast so I don't normally have all that rope in the cockpit. This is especially important with my cockpit configuration since the traveler is right behind the cabin top.

 

[stephen Penny]

I have all my lines, including jib sheets, halyards, reefing lines, outhaul, boom vang, main sheet and main traveler leading aft for ease of single handling and eliminates crew going forward. It does require some clutches.

 

[sailingdog]

The main halyard and reefing lines are all "short ends" in normal usage, as is the toping lift. The only line that is a "long end" line is the outhaul and it really isn't very long.

Another issue is the type of line. All the lines that lead back to my cockpit are ones with short ends in normal boat configuration. All lines that have big coils when sail is raised are up at the mast so I don't normally have all that rope in the cockpit. This is especially important with my cockpit configuration since the traveler is right behind the cabin top.

 

[Roger Long]

The main halyard and reefing lines are all "short ends" in normal usage, as is the toping lift.

When I raise my main, I end up with this big pile of rope that came down the mast when the sail went up and I have to coil it up and hang it on the cleat.

What am I doing wrong?

 

[sailingdog]

You're obviously using the wrong type of line...

When I raise my main, I end up with this big pile of rope that came down the mast when the sail went up and I have to coil it up and hang it on the cleat.

What am I doing wrong?

Actually, yeah, my bad on the main halyard...

 

[Timo42]

I have all lines led aft on my 22'er because I found it was generally easier to handle them myself than to tell someone to "release that line, no, not that one!" that and there isn't a lot of real estate at the pointy end of a small boat. Things seem to happen too fast on a small boat to tie the tiller off, go forward and get back before you get into trouble. I left the jam cleats at the mast and use them for the topping lift, and the main halyard when I am flying the spinnaker, freeing up a cleat at the cockpit. Downhauls and halyards go into sheet bags, cutting down the clutter in the cockpit. On my buddies' 30'er none of the lines are led aft, and it is no issue because you have time to react. ymmv.