Adding Wood to a Metal Toe Rail...

centerline · Dec 11, 2015

by doing it the way you suggest is removing the versatility of the holes in the toe rail... which people use to shackle all sorts of necessary/desired blocks or lines, ect.. to, for various reasons.
at least 2 very well known world cruisers have increased the toe rail on their boats by attaching the boards to the stanchions with u-bolts, leaving about 2 inches of space between the board and the deck so any green water can drain away quickly...
in addition, this will beef up the stanchions, and will be very much less likely from ever being bent or torn from the deck.... more stanchions can be added as needed, or even shortys just to bolt the toerail board to, to make it incredibly strong.
and it is also the easiest way to increase the height of the toe rail....

Alctel · Dec 11, 2015

I'm not sure it would work that good - my toe rail gets a ton of abuse that would ruin any wood quite quickly

centerline · Dec 11, 2015

Alctel said:
I'm not sure it would work that good - my toe rail gets a ton of abuse that would ruin any wood quite quickly

either you are thinking of the wrong kind of wood, or something is extremely hard on your toe rail/boat.... a wood toe rail isnt an uncommon thing.
just curious, but what gives the toe rail on your boat such abuse that teak or oak wouldnt last very long?

David in Sandusky · Dec 12, 2015

I doubt that eliminating the convenient holes in the rail will add any resale value to your boat!

I find so many uses for ours: jib fair leads, cleats, tieing down deck freight, fastening our vang as a preventer, hanging fenders horizontally at marinas with high docks, etcetera, etcetera.

Dalliance · Dec 12, 2015

David in Sandusky said:
I doubt that eliminating the convenient holes in the rail will add any resale value to your boat!

I find so many uses for ours: jib fair leads, cleats, tieing down deck freight, fastening our vang as a preventer, hanging fenders horizontally at marinas with high docks, etcetera, etcetera.

The toe rail was designed this way to be functional. Adding wood to it will compromise the usefulness of the toe rail and will not really make the boat look like a Morris or Alerion. The lines of those classic boats are different from your Hunter and no amount of added ornament will change that. You have a Cherubini Hunter which is a classic in its own right. Better to focus on restoring and maintaining the integrity of it's original design.
Think of it this way, if you compare boat brands to car brands, a Morris or Alerion might be a Jaguar or an Aston Martin while a Hunter might be a Ford, but a Cherubini designed Hunter is like a '65 Mustang. A classic design, ahead of it's time, with a bit of a cult following. No need to make it look like anything else.

DianaOfBurlington · Dec 12, 2015

I like that you're maintaining a well-loved and well-used H25. Small as it is, the boat is worth keeping!

I don't know why you mean to 'add wood' to the toerail extrusion, nor how you mean to do it. I agree with all that's said about the toerail, especially its versatility (having a toerail means never having to discompose the lifelines by hanging fenders from them!). It is also phenomenally strong and long-lasting. Consider painting it (use epoxy paint) when it gets scuffed up-- this will save it in appearance as well as in structural integrity.

Historical fact: the only Hunter 25 ever made without the aluminum toerail was Hull #1, which went to Skip Moorhouse, the sailmaker (c.1972-73). His had a regular teak toerail, bolted through the flange. (Also, Skip broke the mast while racing and ordered a replacement that he stepped in the bilge, making his the only H25 without a deck-stepped spar too; but though done at the factory that wasn't meant to be.)

I made number boards for my registration numbers that stand inside the toerail and get bolted through it. They're not on now because the pulpit is not mounted and the boat is under shrink wrap; but when I can I'll have photos. I meant to incorporate a chock in the aft end of these, for the bow lines, but found that mounting it on a block (to raise it so the lines clear the top of the toerail) was more hassle that it's worth. But I do not like having mooring lines or anchor lines led over the toerail-- their constant sawing will ruin the aluminum-- and support any idea, adequate aesthetically and structurally, that alleviates this.

In the end I have to agree with what Dalliance says (as I usually do

). You are considering adding a maintenance-intensive element, one that won't particularly add much in utility or appearance, to a well-executed design that's recognized everywhere for its simple lines and classic prettiness. Moreover, yours is a series-1 boat, which (no offense meant to anyone else) I consider the best-looking of the H25 model range. Why mess with any of that?

As an aside, David mentions clipping snatch blocks to the toerail holes, which we all have done (and many see no reason to not do). However, these will make a real mess out of the anodizing in short order. Wichard makes a very expensive rubber-coated u-bolt meant to clip into the toerail (filling one hole, so, no movement = no scratching), but at over $100 each it's hardly worth it to most of us. For often-moved stuff, there are roller shackles, typically used for those mainsheet-bail systems, that might ease the pain on the aluminum, though in time they'll probably distort under weirdly-angled loads. Worth considering is a return to the concept of foot blocks, once you are satisfied with where your usual genoa and spinnaker sheetline leads should go. For the H25 or H27 I would recommend Schaefer 7-series cheek blocks (at the least), mounted aft on the coaming sides. These are rated at 2500 lbs; but remember a foot block's load is essentially double what the sheetline's load is because of the almost-180-degree turn (doubling back doubles the load); so make sure your backing blocks are adequate for heavy shear loads! The regular cheek blocks, just upsized, may be the cheapest solution. And they make the boat look cool as people notice that you seem to be a 'serious' racer in 'the old style', which to me is always the height of cool.

Tim M · Dec 12, 2015

I agree with others concerning the usefulness of your existing toerail. Its function is its beauty. If you really have the desire to sand and oil/varnish teak yearly, add a teak 1X2 rub-rail 6-8" below the toerail and an 'eyebrow' at the top edge of the topsides. I've done it to other people's boats and the installation is not that difficult. They both will look great - as long as the finish looks good - and for some buyers, will add value. After owning a number of boats I bought my 37c partly because of minimal exterior woodwork and the continuous extruded aluminum toerail. Next time the teak deckrails need refinishing I'll replace them with stainless - not that I'm in a hurry to, but that's how much I dislike sanding teak. Guess I've done too much of it and it's hard on old arthritic hands. There's nothing wrong with adding the beauty of teak - as long as you realize what you're getting into.

DianaOfBurlington · Dec 13, 2015

Tim M said:
Next time the teak deckrails need refinishing I'll replace them with stainless - not that I'm in a hurry to, but that's how much I dislike sanding teak. Guess I've done too much of it and it's hard on old arthritic hands. There's nothing wrong with adding the beauty of teak - as long as you realize what you're getting into.

This may be merely anecdotal on my part; but one thing I've noticed is that the advent of inexpensive, easily-acquired stainless-steel handrails has led to an apparent reduction in the prices of teak. I can remember when first-grade teak was just about the most expensive thing you could get your hands on-- the more notable because Hunter (and others) used it for everything, even including cleats in interior cabinetry, which my brother and I, in the '70s, thought amusing though extravagant. Now you can still get decent teak (though not first-grade, which is nearly a thing of the past) for like $9.00/bd-ft. Even low-grade Honduras mahogany is well more than that ($14 here in NJ, on a good day).

Maybe we just need to be aware that as we replace teak with metal, the price of teak lumber will actually go up. No-one is going to use it for any less than what we've all thought it best for-- exterior trim and cabin soles-- and so rather than seeing a surplus I think we'll be seeing less being imported (why waste the cost of harvest and transport if there's no market?).

Plymouth Sailor will like your idea of the rubrail, Tim (if he's into that sort of thing) because teak has always been noteworthy for its ability to withstand significant beating while protecting what it's fastened to. It's also very friendly with 5200 and doesn't need finishing, especially in this application-- which in turn may actually help preserve the toerail from impacts. Just be sure to set the mounting screws well in (bore the plugs' sockets deeply) so as to avoid having any abrasion wear down the plugs and expose the screws (and create leaks), as happens a lot on teak decks and with handrails when people sand them too aggressively over the years. Take special care to see that the screws' points, coming through the hull, don't do damage to or create new hassles in the interior (no; you probably don't have the hull thickness to dream that they won't pop through). I'd use #10 screws for this. Panheads hold well in plug-socket holes. Make them Philips-head for easy extraction someday. The section of teak should be a trapezoid, or else a 1x2 with outer corners chamfered at a 45.

A general rule of thumb for hull-mounted rubrails:
The rubrail goes parallel with the gunwale (toerail, here), NOT with sheer curve of its own. Nothing is worse-looking than a rubrail applied with too much curve to it. On boats with tumblehome (like the Cherubini 44), people think this needs to protect the widest part of the boat and so mount it too low. This is correct in function; but for hulls with pronounced tumblehome, the rubrail should be made wider in section to reach out to that point. Also, unless you are coming into regular contact with vertical faces of concrete (such as canal-lock walls), any substantial rubrail mounted above the widest part of tumblehome will still do a good job of protecting the boat.

This 'rule' appears to fly in the face of what I consistently say about waterline, cove and boot-stop stripes, that each of them must have its own sheer curve (none are parallel to either the sheer or to the actual float line). But in some cases aesthetics must have some priority; and I submit that the rubrails and these painted lines have their own rules.

DianaOfBurlington · Dec 18, 2015

Plymouth Sailor said:
Agreed, love the boat and as far as I understand, John Cherubini was a fan of Herreshoff so the boat does have that classic look, however, it is a seventies design, I'm not changing the boat, (I already like it's looks), I'm just refreshing it's looks! I'd love to see John II make a Cherubini daysailer, that would be serious competition for the Morris daysailers!

I'm flattered that you'd consider me for this project; but if I were to return to the boatbuilding business, especially as my own boss, I would not build a daysailer. That market is so glutted it's cliche. The over-the-top $400k daysailer is toy for rich men that, as a market, I can't respect. I'd make an updated version of the Hunter lineup, only more seakindly and more traditionally styled, more like Chuck Paine's Annie and Frances models. I've already drawn preliminary plans for a 24-ft sloop, a 29-ft cutter/sloop, and a 34-ft sloop/yawl, and have my dad's design for a 40-41-ft yawl from 1968, which could do with some modernization (taller, higher-aspect rig, yes, including the mizzen) but is otherwise all right. I might add the 37-38-ft cutter design I tried to sell to my uncle and dad 35 years ago. At about the same time (1980) I drew a 'copy' of the Dyer 29 motorboat that could be a cruiser, a club launch, a day boat and a sportfishing boat. That would be my range. They'd be pretty but reasonably inexpensive; and I would NOT allow customization unless selling the basic-model of each can pay the bills (my advice to anyone going into production of any boat).

But, what am I saying? --that's another thing I'm never goona do!

DianaOfBurlington · Dec 19, 2015

Thanks for the vote of confidence, PlymouthSailor, and for the opportunity to return the thread to the original topic! In my view the best thing we can do with our original-generation Cherubini-designed Hunters is to respect what they were originally meant to be. I don't say that because of my dad; I say that about anything that is intrinsically good from the start. I drive a 1994 Cavalier with 359,000 miles on it (that still pulls from a green light like a hot rod) and it's taught me a lot about the respecting the purity of some designs and how sometimes some modernization of an old product is counterproductive. It's just a different mentality. If I wanted something more modern, I'd have got it. I want this because I like what it does, how it looks, what it stands for. I've driven 12 hours straight in this car (once non-stop from NJ to NC in the dead of night) and have zero complaints about it as a car. It doesn't smoke, doesn't leak, handles well, accelerates with your hands off, gets 33 mpg; and the insurance is nearly nil. I'll put it up against any newer, modernized cars. Many of us might say similar things about our boats.

That said, I have modified my H25 so extensively that it's still not back into the water. My mods on this otherwise decently-executed design are in three categories: fixing the design flaws; repairing what went bad from age; and adding features I'd like to have. Other than the mods that are meant to make her more seaworthy and useful at sea (new foredeck hatch, addition of bridge deck and traveler, truncated spray hood with Dorade vents) it looks pretty stock, just refinished. Being one of the party that designed the interior layout, I don't have anything to complain about there. I added a sink basin in the head and ended up chopping up the forepeak in order to add what I wanted to the boat; but neither of those was really necessary. I built a new ladder, incorporating the cooler; but the old one was gone. I extended the q-berth farther aft; but the back bulkhead was only damp dust when I got it. I added the vertical grab posts, mainly because I added the bulkhead between the two bunks to port (the one thing I'd insisted on, and not got, in 1972-73). And I'm making a new proper drop-leaf table, both because it's lighter and more useful than the original one and because it's cute, almost funny, like having a C44 table in an H25. Also, I know how to do these things; so why not?

But I contend there are certain elements to the boat you just don't mess with, the things that make it what it is. I would strongly discourage anyone from altering the shape of the cabin-side deadlights on the gen-1 boats. My dad drew them like that; they're key to the design. It'd be like cutting off the fins on a '64 Coupe deVille: don't. I would not replace the black metal toerail with anything else. I would not shorten the mainsail to raise the boom. I don't consider adding cabintop mid-boom sheeting to be any 'improvement'-- the sheet should always pull down on the after end of the boom; and no convenience is worth sacrificing control of mainsail shape in my view. I added the bridge deck to raise the threshold of the companionway and to put the sheetline in its proper place (I just can't sail without a traveler; I use it all the time). So any bimini I get will have to be like a yarmulke over the back end of the cockpit, which, with a tiller boat, is where guests sit anyway. I also narrowed the dodger to be like the one on Robin Graham's Dove, which is worth study because of its commonsense utility. I drilled through the coaming to lead halyards and the reef line to the cockpit.

My dad would roll over in his grave to see some of the 'improvements' some people make to boats that were better before. 'Can't see the forest through the trees', he would say. I keep this adage in the back of my head every time I'm threading more 16- and 14-gauge wire through the boat! 'Go sailing,' he would say. That's a lesson for all of us.

DianaOfBurlington · Dec 19, 2015

Your photos are great. Your foredeck hatch looks a lot like the one I have! Your throttle/shift is exactly where mine is too. I like the teak sole in the cockpit; but how is it bedded down? Having no pedestal I took the integrity of the cockpit sole for granted, till I sanded down all the old paint and found cracks. Sure enough, there was rot in the core. I filled this with epoxy and laid two layers of cloth on it; now it's much better. I also installed the cockpit drains I've been advising other people to do for years. This is one mod that's just about required.

Tim M · Dec 20, 2015

I don't mean to shift the thread from the great discussion of 'aesthetics and purity of design' but I wanted to relate some recent experience on the cost of teak. John, you mentioned the cost of teak and mahogany in your area, but I think we're living in the 'new reality' here on the West Coast. All the old stashes of imported logs have been used up and all our teak comes in under the new export rules and control of the 'country of export'. Right now there is no Honduran mahogany to be had - because they're not allowing it to be cut down - but if you can find some it is $35-40/bd ft. We have lots of teak available - and it's beautiful, 16 -22' long in wide widths with 4/4 s2s at 15/16". But it's $35.00/ bd ft with seconds $25-30 and that's cash and carry prices. Dimensional lumber is much more. I bought a foot and a half recently of a piece of 8/4 to mount a windlass on and it was $120. Maybe buying all the teak you can is better than money in the bank. It doesn't look like the price is going down - not around here at least.
Cheers,
Tim

woodster · Dec 21, 2015

Plymouth Sailor said:
Agreed, with those prices they are a "rich mans toy" however the vast majority of weekend sailors be they rich or financially challenged (the new socially correct way of saying poor), are harbor/bay sailors. Those gorgeous vessels you build are for the serious put any other boat to shame blue water sailors. Someday I aspire to that but at this time anything you can do in a Cherubini to help little guys like me is appreciated!

Man cannot live on bread and peanut butter alone....... he must have a 5 gallon pail......

Adding Wood to a Metal Toe Rail...

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