Adding weight to the stern to counteract weather helm

[Iriegal]

Hello All -
I've posted before about my Oday 272 and weather helm problems. She has a 9.9 outboard on the starboard side. Last year I did everything y'all told me to do - I bought an autopilot and played with the sails to learn how to balance the boat better. I've had experienced sailors on my boat and I've toyed with the sails myself in light winds and scary weather days. To no avail. This boat just has weather helm that makes her difficult to single-hand.
I've had two experienced sailors tell me that my stern sits too high in the water and the bow is too low. There is no weight in the bow to make the boat do this - it must just be a design thing. They told me that if I added weights to the stern, it may help with the weather helm. I think I'm going to try it but I don't know the safest, most cost-effective way to add weight. Thoughts?

 

[JohnShannon]

Go sailing with your fat friends, they get themselves to the boat no lugging required won't cost anything except maybe a box of donuts. Failing that you are at home depot looking at bags of cement?

 

[Iriegal]

That's hilarious, and now that I think about it, I've had more successful sailing days with my fat friends than with the skinny ones. ;-) And about the bags of cement, I just don't want loose stuff flopping around everywhere when I'm healed over, especially anything that could damage the boat! She's a tender thing, and likes to stay on her side...

 

[Iriegal]

Well, that's an interesting idea, but I thought raking the mast would add weather helm. Also, wouldn't that stress the rig?

 

[rgranger]

Is the boot stripe showing the bow is down? I would think that if it was a design thing, it would be a well known design thing since they made a lot of these boats.

Do you like to fly too much sail? In otherwords, are you one of those guys who likes the adrenaline of a boat healed over on her ear? If so, then that is why she rounds up. As soon as the rudder is no longer digging into the water, your center of lateral resistance moves forward and your boat pivots into the wind due to the pressure on the sails.

If that is not your issue then your center of effort is too far forward relative to your under body's center of lateral resistance. If you think of your keel as a pivot point as the wind hits your boat's sails from the beam, then you have too much pressure on the rear end of that pivot. The most likely culprit is a blow out main sail. The pocket in the main should be right about here (see photo)

If it is further aft than that, then you have a blown mainsail. Another possibility is that you are fling too large of a genoa or your genoa is also blown. This is counter intuitive but if your genoa is too large then the center of effort on the genoa is aft of where it should be and again will make your boat pivot into the wind on a beam reach. The idea of putting weight in the stern will simply make the stern dig in more and move the center of lateral resistance aft (move the pivot point) but you could do the same thing by making your rudder larger. However if you have the stock rudder that came with that boat, then I doubt that is the problem and would look at your sails more closely.

 

[JohnVTX]

Well, that's an interesting idea, but I thought raking the mast would add weather helm. Also, wouldn't that stress the rig?

I am not familiar with the standing rigging setup on the Oday. Adjusting for rack adds no stress. Bending adds some, but also helps dump wind.

 

[Iriegal]

Believe me, rgranger, I have toyed with those sails plenty and have only managed to get her balanced perfectly once - ironically when sailing with a 250 pound fellow! I highly prefer for my boat to stay on her feet. Healing over more than 30 degrees when I'm by myself scares the willies out of me! In winds above 18 knots, I always reef the genoa in to about 50%, or more! My sails are good. It's not the sails.

 

[rgranger]

Ah.... these posts crossed in the net but I think you may have answered part of the question. You said your boat likes to stay on its side. That will make it round up. Once the rudder stops digging into the water, your center of lateral resistance moves dramatically forward and the pressure on your sails will make her round up. A flatter boat sails faster. Let your main out more... add a reef and hank on a smaller head sail or put two or three turns into the roller if that is what you have.

 

[Iriegal]

And yes, you can clearly see that the bow sits low in the water compared to the stern. Her entire booty sticks up like she's getting ready to start twerking! :-D

 

[rgranger]

Believe me, rgranger, I have toyed with those sails plenty and have only managed to get her balanced perfectly once - ironically when sailing with a 250 pound fellow! I highly prefer for my boat to stay on her feet. Healing over more than 30 degrees when I'm by myself scares the willies out of me! In winds above 18 knots, I always reef the genoa in to about 50%, or more! My sails are good. It's not the sails.

Strange... you said you bring your genoa in 50%... well a roller furler is not meant to be a roller reefer. Your head sail will lose its shape dramatically after about three turns on the drum. Once you lose sail shape the only thing a sail does is tip you over. If you feel you need to bring in that much sheet then maybe the thing to do is drop the main entirely and sail on genoa alone. You might have lee helm issue then but if so we will have a start to what the issues are.

 

[rgranger]

And yes, you can clearly see that the bow sits low in the water compared to the stern. Her entire booty sticks up like she's getting ready to start twerking! :-D

Uhg! Okay then you have something strange going on. Is it possible you have a fresh water tank under the V-berth? Or some other heavy thing? Something is making your bow drop. Where are your batteries? Maybe it is a combination of a bunch of small things that added up. I read some reviews of this model

http://sailingmagazine.net/article-726-oday-27.html

So I don't think it is an intrinsic design flaw. Why is your bow dropping? Do you have a lot of chain in a chain locker?
\

 

[Iriegal]

Thanks for your input, rgranger, but I have tried all those things. When I'm by myself, I mostly sail with headsail alone. It does not matter what I do, the boat pulls to weather. So, now I'd like to try to add weight to the stern. Any thoughts on that?

 

[JohnVTX]

And yes, you can clearly see that the bow sits low in the water compared to the stern. Her entire booty sticks up like she's getting ready to start twerking! :-D

There is something wrong with your setup if your normal flotation just sitting there is bow down.

 

[Ted]

Having you tried raking the mast aft and bending it some?

Raking the mast aft will induce more weather helm not less. Try moving the mast head forward to reduce weather helm.
If you apply too much main sheet tension, the leech will hook creating more weather helm. Try easing the main sheet, adding some twist. If you have a traveler, ease it to leeward.
Is there any chance that water could have accumulated in the bow between the hull and any interior liner? Do you have an anchor locker loaded with chain up there?

 

[Iriegal]

I really appreciate all the suggestions regarding sail shape, but if the entire boat doesn't sit flat in the water without any sails up whatsoever, won't that affect how she sails, regardless of how I trim?

 

[shemandr]

Having you tried raking the mast aft and bending it some?

For reducing weather helm I think you want to decrease rake aft.
I would beg borrow or steal a smaller jib and try that. Rolling 50% is going to make a baggy mess out of the sail and cause more heal and drag than desired.

 

[Charlie Jones s/v Tehani]

Do also bear in mind- smaller boats often sit somewhat bow down when one one is aboard so that when crew is in the cockpit, it balances

I think you need to play with mast rake. And no, it won't stress the rig

 

[rgranger]

..... So, now I'd like to try to add weight to the stern. Any thoughts on that?

Well I guess I'd move the battery boxes to an aft locker. Each battery weighs about 60lb so if you have two of those then you are halfway to a fat guy already.. And if you stow fresh water on board, try moving that aft as well.

But I think it is also important to understand why your boat is sitting nose down. You started this thread with a question about weather helm and I think we have concluded that the fix for that is to get your nose up. Why is your nose down is probably more of an important question than how to fix weather helm.

You must have gotten water someplace inside the hull. Someone else asked if you have a liner. Is it possible you got water sitting in the nose but it is under a liner so you can't see it? If you do have water in the nose, you should be able to get it to flow backwards once you get your stern down. Maybe ask 5 or 6 guys at the marina to stand in your cockpit with you for 10 min or so. If your bilge pump comes on, then you have an answer.


Do you have a trailer for this boat? Or could you get your yard to put her on stands for a long weekend? Tap the hull with a rubber mallet and see if you hear slogging ... drill a small weep hole and see if water comes out (only do this if you are comfortable fixing fiberglass . If this were my boat, my biggest concern would be that I have hidden water in the hull and when it freezes, it is going to do some real damage.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

John Shannon had the only reply that actually addressed your stated interest. I agree with him ... if you want more weight, purchase some bags of sakrete (mason sand so you don't end up with hardened bags when they get wet) and place them anywhere in the stern where they will fit. You can play around with ways to secure them and keep them dry, but they probably won't slide too much anyway unless you really broach. I suggest doing this as a trial so that it can be removed easily if and when you find that it just doesn't help to eliminate weather helm when the wind speed increases. It can't hurt to give it a try.
While you seem to be convinced that there is something wrong with the way your boat sits in the water, adding weight in the stern just doesn't sound right, intuitively. It just doesn't sound right that your boat should perform drastically different than any other O'Day 272
Of course, all boats improve performance with weight as the wind speed increases, but normally the weight gets added to the rail most desirably in the form of crew.
You appear to have a mast-rigged sloop as I do. I dramatically reduced the problem of weather helm in stronger wind simply by adding a back-stay adjustment. There seems to be some controversy with regard to increasing versus decreasing rake to reduce weather helm. The more slack you have in your headstay, the more weather helm you will experience as the wind speed increases. A larger headsail that has a deep draft with the draft position well aft is going to make weather helm very uncomfortable. You will find that if you tighten your backstay, you will pull the draft out of the head sail, your boat will sail on her feet, and the helm will feel much lighter.
Some may argue that increasing back-stay tension is raking the mast aft, which, according to the argument, increases weather helm. First, a few inches of rake one way or the other just isn't going to affect weather helm to any extent that you notice. I think it is just one of those theoretical arguments that just doesn't have any practical application. Your rig should have a certain amount of rake. You should learn what it should be and simply set the rigging to achieve it. Second, when the sag in the forestay increases with head sail pressure, the top of the mast is being pulled forward anyway, so increasing tension on the backstay just pulls the masthead back where it belongs. That tension needs to be adjustable for wind strength in any case, so it doesn't make any sense to me to eliminate that essential piece of gear in a production boat. It is tantamount to eliminating the traveler or vang for the main sail or eliminating an adjustable fairlead for the headsail. The fact that they don't put the gear on your sailboat doesn't negate the fact that your boat simply sails better when you have all of the right gear, which includes back-stay adjustment which controls the sag of your head stay as wind speed increases.
The gear that you will need will depend on whether you have a split backstay or a single backstay. It appears from photographs that the 272 may have either. I know that it is a simple addition for a split backstay and not overly expensive. Well worth it.

 

[Iriegal]

Thanks, guys! All those responses were extremely helpful! I will ask some of my "husky" friends to stand in the back of the boat to see if there is some undetected water in the liner of the bow. I will also play around with the mast rake. If that doesn't do the trick, I guess I'll try those bags of concrete afterall.