Adding a second reef to H260

May 17, 2017
51
Hunter H260 Prince George
As anybody added a second reef point to their mainsail? Just wondering if its worth the effort and expense? I sail mostly on inland lakes but will likely do some sheltered coastal cruising in the future and want to be safe doing it. I would be interested to hear from other owners who have made this mod (or have considered it) and how they ran the 2nd reef line? Any regrets? Is there a reason Hunter didn't design the boat with a second reef, just keeping the cost down or not required?
 
Jan 5, 2017
2,346
Beneteau First 38 Lyall Harbour Saturna Island
Chuck; you live in an area of the world where the wind tends to blow! Err on the side of safety. I have 3 reef points and don't feel thats too many.
 
Jun 8, 2004
10,397
-na -NA Anywhere USA
There were two reasons by Hunter and the first was cost. Second, the general consensus which came from me, was no because the boat was not designed for heavy weather sailing by the buyers who merely wanted a trailerable boat. Personally as a dealer, only once I had to put a second reef on or the buyer would not buy the boat. I found reefing took a little time when solo and came up with a simple system removing the horns or front hook on the forward end of the boom for a lone line system ending on the starboard end of the boom. However, hardware was changed to allow lowering and raising of the main when pointed into the wind. Look under GB Grahams question. Some will disagree but help came from and included Harken
 
Jun 4, 2004
392
Hunter 31 and 25 and fomerly 23.5 Stockton State Park Marina; MO
I added a second reef to my 23.5 last season. I often sail in 20+ knots and it was just too much drama of rounding up and hanging on for dear life. Now I can relax and let the tiller pilot drive in all but the largest gusts. I reef the tack at the mast on the rams horn and the clew line no longer feeds through the reefing cringle but rather through a reefing hook which is positioned at the appropriate position. My cost was nominal as I did it myself and used left over sailcloth from my sail rite jib kit.
Of note on these boats your reefing point is actually nearer the position of a 2nd reef and your new 2nd reef will be nearer the point of a usual third reef.
Now I can unfurl a shred of jib and keep the boat balanced. For me it was a very worthwhile endeavor.
DennisIMG_2090.JPG IMG_2091.JPG IMG_2092.JPG IMG_2093.JPG
 
Apr 8, 2013
205
Hunter 260 Nanaimo
I think the boat was designed with only one reef point.
I reef at 12 kts and then have little power till 25 kts.
At that point its time to reassess. A 2nd reef piont would not really work added too the existing sail.
I am looking at a new mainsail and will add 2 reef points at different points.
 
Nov 10, 2017
258
Hunter Legend 260 Epidavros
A 2nd reef piont would not really work added too the existing sail.
I tend to agree, I don't think there is enough left on the standard sail to warrant a second reef point. By the time the first reef is in and the jib partly furled to balance, there isn't much material out there to worry over, and if there is enough to worry about it probably should be in it's bag.
 
Jun 4, 2004
392
Hunter 31 and 25 and fomerly 23.5 Stockton State Park Marina; MO
This thread started as a " has anybody ever done it" but has any ended up as a " has anybody ever talked you out of it" kind of thing. Fact, if you want to safely and more comfortably sail in big air with these boats you'll need a deeper reef than was factory supplied. Fact, it can be done and my pictures prove it and I'm telling you I really like the result. If that kind of sailing is not your cup of tea then you certainly don't need it.
Other issues arise when sailing in heavy air such as current, lee shore hazards, pitching and rolling in steep waves, docking dilemmas, etc. ; none of which are mitigated by a deeper reef.
Regards,
Dennis
 
Jun 4, 2004
392
Hunter 31 and 25 and fomerly 23.5 Stockton State Park Marina; MO

A breezy day with my second reef tucked in. The local airport about 20 miles south was reporting something like 22mph with gusts to 35. I'm chilling with the tiller pilot driving. No more rounding up drama.
Dennis
 
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May 17, 2017
51
Hunter H260 Prince George

A breezy day with my second reef tucked in. The local airport about 20 miles south was reporting something like 22mph with gusts to 35. I'm chilling with the tiller pilot driving. No more rounding up drama.
Dennis
This thread started as a " has anybody ever done it" but has any ended up as a " has anybody ever talked you out of it" kind of thing. Fact, if you want to safely and more comfortably sail in big air with these boats you'll need a deeper reef than was factory supplied. Fact, it can be done and my pictures prove it and I'm telling you I really like the result. If that kind of sailing is not your cup of tea then you certainly don't need it.
Other issues arise when sailing in heavy air such as current, lee shore hazards, pitching and rolling in steep waves, docking dilemmas, etc. ; none of which are mitigated by a deeper reef.
Regards,
Dennis
Thanks for your perspective Dennis. Adding another reef is something I feel I should do and I appreciate you sharing your experience and photos.
I guess it is like most safety gear, you don't need it until you NEED IT!
There are old sailors and there are bold sailors, but there are no old bold sailors.

Fair winds everyone
 
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Nov 10, 2017
258
Hunter Legend 260 Epidavros
I'm trying hard not to find a reason for going up on to the coachroof under sail, never mind making more reasons to do so.
 
Jun 4, 2004
392
Hunter 31 and 25 and fomerly 23.5 Stockton State Park Marina; MO
GBGraham,
I get that, especially in our boats which have no side decks and it's a big step up to get on the coach roof. But there is something that all should know about reefing; it is normal, expected, and necessary; especially in our tender boats. Here is why:
All (well almost) sailboats regardless of size and weight are designed with enough sail area to move them in light air. This automatically by default means they will have too much sail area for most conditions. Designers and sail makers must then decide on the number of and depths of reefs to accommodate it's expected usage. Some who sail bigger and/or heavier boats often "dis" our boats but the truth is if we equip them they way the bigger boats are equipped we gain much capability. Imagine if our boats were supplied with a good reefing system with 2 or more reefs, a bow sprit with anchor roller, more storage built in, more winches etc. Still a lightweight fair weather/water boat but certainly more usable and capable.
With my sailing students I stress right from the beginning not to think of reefing as an exception, a once in a blue moon, event; rather a normal, purposeful way of matching the boat to the current conditions.
Regards,
Dennis
 
Nov 10, 2017
258
Hunter Legend 260 Epidavros
GBGraham,
I get that, especially in our boats which have no side decks and it's a big step up to get on the coach roof. But there is something that all should know about reefing; it is normal, expected, and necessary; especially in our tender boats. Here is why:
All (well almost) sailboats regardless of size and weight are designed with enough sail area to move them in light air. This automatically by default means they will have too much sail area for most conditions. Designers and sail makers must then decide on the number of and depths of reefs to accommodate it's expected usage. Some who sail bigger and/or heavier boats often "dis" our boats but the truth is if we equip them they way the bigger boats are equipped we gain much capability. Imagine if our boats were supplied with a good reefing system with 2 or more reefs, a bow sprit with anchor roller, more storage built in, more winches etc. Still a lightweight fair weather/water boat but certainly more usable and capable.
With my sailing students I stress right from the beginning not to think of reefing as an exception, a once in a blue moon, event; rather a normal, purposeful way of matching the boat to the current conditions.
Regards,
Dennis
Thank Dennis for your response. I'm afraid it's been a Granny sucking eggs time. I am well aware about reefing and reefing isn't the problem, it's the boat, my infirmities and this wish to stay safe on board as you called "tender boat" and for that my friend I make to apologies for not wanting to follow your reefing plan for all the reasons on this post and others.
Just in case you haven't seen any of my posts I have given you below the sail plan of our yacht before H260.
This boat was circa 16.5m and 26 tons. My wife and I where full time sailors for 8 months of every year for ten years, and we crewed it alone. The only thing that came back to the cockpit was the jib, stay and main sheets, everything else had to be done a the mast, plus of course there was a full size cruising chute also to dealt with at times.
The normal summer winds (Meltemi) in Greece was normally bf 6-7 and often could get to 8's and on occasions 9's. As you can see by sail size vs winds reefing (3 reefs) was important, done early (most times anyway) and we were well accustomed to reef often. GBGraham




SAM_0368.JPG SAM_0364.JPG
 
Jun 4, 2004
392
Hunter 31 and 25 and fomerly 23.5 Stockton State Park Marina; MO
GBGraham,
I see that you are well experienced and I also struggle with moving on the boat due to chronic pain. Short of getting a boat like you used to have , my only recourse was to tame the tiger as I have been too often up on the coach roof hanging on for dear life as a gust slams me over and I wait for the thing to round up so I can move again. I also like to have a breeze to keep cool as I over-heat easily. Ghosting along in 3-5 knots of wind is not my idea of fun so my only option is to get a big heavy boat or tame this thing. And certainly no apologies needed.
Regards,
Dennis
 
Nov 10, 2017
258
Hunter Legend 260 Epidavros
GBGraham,
I see that you are well experienced and I also struggle with moving on the boat due to chronic pain. Short of getting a boat like you used to have , my only recourse was to tame the tiger as I have been too often up on the coach roof hanging on for dear life as a gust slams me over and I wait for the thing to round up so I can move again. I also like to have a breeze to keep cool as I over-heat easily. Ghosting along in 3-5 knots of wind is not my idea of fun so my only option is to get a big heavy boat or tame this thing. And certainly no apologies needed.
Regards,
Dennis
My sailing these days are leisurely, although ghosting is not the preferred speed I quite like it lively. I'm just out for the sail and not to particularly go anywhere. Once the reef goes in so do I, onto my mooring, ashore, Taverna for a beer or a jug of Greek wine and watch the sun go down, this is my second reef!!
 
Jun 8, 2004
10,397
-na -NA Anywhere USA
When I write a response, I take in mind what the original question asks and what the person posting the response preferences are. I see a sailor wanting a leisurely sail without having to go forward on the Hunter 260. The boat came with one reef. It is the owner responsibility if they want a second reef. My response no here as the poster wanted a leisurely sail. Once you reach 20 knots of wind, most people wish to come in under motor as that is not their preferenc but then there are experienced sailors like Dennis who has a second reef as he enjoys higher winds. I applaud Dennis but in most cases, most would not want to go that extreme, coming in as there are many reasons to include do not have the experience, crew safety, etc... Therefore, my response was no on a second reef primarily due to preference of the poster.

There is another post how to single reef with various responses to include mine which I conferred with other manufacturers and sailors well known to many. Mine is closely related to the Harken but the line first (Harken) is attached to the mast vs. the forward section of the boom which I proposed. Why, I was concerned for the mainsail getting entangled on the hooks or horn and ripping(one could remove the horn/hooks. Secondly, I suggested how to keep the sail track closed so nothing comes out of the sail track. Third, I was sent photos of the hardware of the poster's deck hardware and there is no way, to release the main halyard from the aft cockpit suggesting hardware to consider. I did this successfully on Hunter 26/260 and it worked for single line reefing. It is up to each owner to disseminate the information and then choose what he or she wants to do.
 
Nov 10, 2017
258
Hunter Legend 260 Epidavros
C
When I write a response, I take in mind what the original question asks and what the person posting the response preferences are. I see a sailor wanting a leisurely sail without having to go forward on the Hunter 260. The boat came with one reef. It is the owner responsibility if they want a second reef. My response no here as the poster wanted a leisurely sail. Once you reach 20 knots of wind, most people wish to come in under motor as that is not their preferenc but then there are experienced sailors like Dennis who has a second reef as he enjoys higher winds. I applaud Dennis but in most cases, most would not want to go that extreme, coming in as there are many reasons to include do not have the experience, crew safety, etc... Therefore, my response was no on a second reef primarily due to preference of the poster.

There is another post how to single reef with various responses to include mine which I conferred with other manufacturers and sailors well known to many. Mine is closely related to the Harken but the line first (Harken) is attached to the mast vs. the forward section of the boom which I proposed. Why, I was concerned for the mainsail getting entangled on the hooks or horn and ripping(one could remove the horn/hooks. Secondly, I suggested how to keep the sail track closed so nothing comes out of the sail track. Third, I was sent photos of the hardware of the poster's deck hardware and there is no way, to release the main halyard from the aft cockpit suggesting hardware to consider. I did this successfully on Hunter 26/260 and it worked for single line reefing. It is up to each owner to disseminate the information and then choose what he or she wants to do.

CD, your essay is slightly vague and ambiguous and for me with not much clarity of want you are trying too get over to me/us, probably too much varied content to be in one post. But here goes on a few points and we'll see if I'm near the mark?
Once you reach 20 knots of wind, most people wish to come in under motor
For me if the wind has built and reached over 20 knots (bf5) lets be in no doubt this is a building wind with possible consequences , and believe me, these winds do not bother me at all.
But I am not an experienced H260 sailor, (one summer season and very happy with what it is.) But the boat has an Achilles heel or more to the point heels, it's a water ballasted lightly rigged boat with a dagger board and thus must be regarded with respect rather than bravado. But until I have more H260 time under my belt, respect is what it gets!
Please tell me if this picture below suits yourIMG_20190411_170938.jpg comment "Secondly, I suggested how to keep the sail track closed so nothing comes out of the sail track."

You ask me to send pictures by PM and then put out a statement like this. "Third, I was sent photos of the hardware of the poster's deck hardware and there is no way, to release the main halyard from the aft cockpit suggesting hardware to consider. "
If you are relating to my hardware please tell me specifically why you have made this statement and your reasoning behind it?
I don't get this PM lark, this is a forum and surely we should all share and learn from others.
I apologise for being pedantic but I do like clarity.
 
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Jun 8, 2004
10,397
-na -NA Anywhere USA
I am trying to respond in your other post as we speak. I am only assuming what you are looking for and all I do is give suggestions so you can make the determination. FYI, I spend on the average of 2 hours a day trying to help others taking time away from my chores. Although yesterday due to a new defective chain saw, I got nailed when the chain tensioner keeps coming loose while cutting bull pine trees which should not be occurring and my arm this time got nailed.
 
Nov 10, 2017
258
Hunter Legend 260 Epidavros
I am trying to respond in your other post as we speak. I am only assuming what you are looking for and all I do is give suggestions so you can make the determination. FYI, I spend on the average of 2 hours a day trying to help others taking time away from my chores. Although yesterday due to a new defective chain saw, I got nailed when the chain tensioner keeps coming loose while cutting bull pine trees which should not be occurring and my arm this time got nailed.
To be sure CD that I really do appreciate all your time, effort and knowledge (I'm sure I'm repeating myself) and I'm totally as sure everyone else thinks the same. At the same time I wasn't sure where on this specific post what tack you was on, it did not come across with your usual clarity.
 
Jun 25, 2004
1,109
Corsair F24 Mk1 003 San Francisco Bay, CA
I tend to agree, I don't think there is enough left on the standard sail to warrant a second reef point. By the time the first reef is in and the jib partly furled to balance, there isn't much material out there to worry over, and if there is enough to worry about it probably should be in it's bag.
How far up from the tack is your 1st reef? There really is no standard place to put the reef. The position of your 1st reef will vary depending upon who built your sail. First reefs can vary from 12 to 24% up from the tack.

If you have an original OEM sail, there's a good chance it's too stretched out to handle properly even if you add another reef.

We made sails for all boat, hunters included, from 15 feet to 70 feet. From traditional "pinhead" mainsails, to large roach (eg for B&R or for Catamarans) to square tops.

There is no such thing as a "standard" first or second reef. How deep to make the first or second reef depends on the stiffness of the boat, the shape of the sail, the location of the battens (varies by full vs partial), the geometry of the rig (how fractional and how swept the spreaders are etc), and, of course, where the sailor sails.

For stiff boats with traditional pinhead mainsails, the first average reef is about 12-15% of the luff length up from the tack. For the typical second reef it is at 24-28%. The (occasional) 3rd reef for offshore sailing is generally at about 36% up from the tack. For a pinhead sail, those reefs correspond to area reductions of approx 25%, 45% and 60%. To say it another way, you end up with a mainsail that's just 75, 55 or 40% as big as it was.

For light weight boats with pinhead sails, like the Hunter 260, we usually start with deeper reefs, since a "12%" 1st reef isn't enough on most trailerable boats, which tend to be more tender than more heavily ballasted boats. We usually put the 1st reef at about 20% up the luff. We call that a "single deep reef" when we're talking to boat owners. It reduces sail area by approx 33%. For a trailerable tender boat like the Hunter., that's generally deep enough to work in steady winds up to 20 kts with higher gusts

If the owner of a trailerable pocket cruiser sailboat wants to sail in higher winds, we recommend a second reef up the luff between 32%-33% or more which reduces total sail area to less than half of the unreefed mainsail.

We use different percentages for fathead sails with big roaches. For owners of the bigger B & R rigged Hunters, we make the roach a little smaller if they request it, so they can sail in stronger offshore winds.

Keep in mind that if you sail in bigger waves in unprotected coastal waters, you will need to reef at lower wind speeds than if you are sailing in protected waters, with smaller waves and chop.

Judy B
Retired sailmaker.
 
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Sep 22, 2018
1,869
Hunter 216 Kingston
As anybody added a second reef point to their mainsail? Just wondering if its worth the effort and expense? I sail mostly on inland lakes but will likely do some sheltered coastal cruising in the future and want to be safe doing it. I would be interested to hear from other owners who have made this mod (or have considered it) and how they ran the 2nd reef line? Any regrets? Is there a reason Hunter didn't design the boat with a second reef, just keeping the cost down or not required?
I lived and sailed in BC for a number of years and as you well know things can get pretty “breezy”. The topic of reefing has been well covered but I would offer an alternative thought.
Perhaps you could acquire a smaller mainsail and have that rigged. It would likely have a reef point in it so you could go really small if needed. That would let you experiment with coastal sailing with relative greater piece of mind.