Adding a second reef to H260

[GBGraham]

How far up from the tack is your 1st reef? There really is no standard place to put the reef. The position of your 1st reef will vary depending upon who built your sail. First reefs can vary from 12 to 24% up from the tack.

If you have an original OEM sail, there's a good chance it's too stretched out to handle properly even if you add another reef.

We made sails for all boat, hunters included, from 15 feet to 70 feet. From traditional "pinhead" mainsails, to large roach (eg for B&R or for Catamarans) to square tops.

There is no such thing as a "standard" first or second reef. How deep to make the first or second reef depends on the stiffness of the boat, the shape of the sail, the location of the battens (varies by full vs partial), the geometry of the rig (how fractional and how swept the spreaders are etc), and, of course, where the sailor sails.

For stiff boats with traditional pinhead mainsails, the first average reef is about 12-15% of the luff length up from the tack. For the second reef the typical 2 nd reef is at 24-28%. The occassional 3rd reef is generally at about 36% up from the tack. For a pinhead sail, those reefs correspond to area reductions of approx 25%, 45% and 60%. To say it another way, you end up with a mainsail that's just 75, 55 or 40% as big as it was.

For light weight boats with pinhead sails, like the Hunter 260, we usually start with deeper reefs, since a "12%" 1st reef isn't enough on most trailerable boats. We usually put the 1st reef at about 20% up the luff. We call that a "single deep reef" when we're talking to boat owners. It reduces sail area by approx 33%. For a trailerable tender boat like the Hunter., that's generally deep enough to work in steady winds up to 20 kts with higher gusts

If the owner of a trailerable pocket cruiser sailboat wants to sail in higher winds, we recommend a second reef up the luff between 32%-33% or more which reduces total sail area to less than half of the unreefed mainsail.

We use different percentages for fathead sails with big roaches. For owners of the bigger B & R rigged Hunters, we make the roach a little smaller if they sail in stronger offshore winds.

Keep in mind that if you sail in bigger waves in unprotected coastal waters, you will need to reef at lower wind speeds than if you are sailing in smaller waves and chop.

Judy B
Retired sailmaker.

That makes sense Judy B. The sail on my H260 is a Doyle, not that means much. It has quite a deep roach but the reef is well deep into the sail, at a guestimate I would say at least 33%. The next time it's out the bag I will measure.
I must get a single or 2 line reefing system in for this season. Last season if I didn't start with a reef and it got lively with the conditions not feeling comfortable enough for me to go to the mast I would just let the main sheet out to it's max and spill the wind, it works on anything I've sailed.

 

[DrJudyB]

It has quite a deep roach but the reef is well deep into the sail, at a guestimate I would say at least 33%.

That would be the equivalent of a very deep 2nd reef on most mainsails. That'll get you home in a blow on an H 260, but you might be underpowered in less than 20 kts of steady wind.

Please remember that a single line system introduces a great deal of friction particularly if you lead it back to the cockpit, which can make it hard to reef. Single line systems work better with blocks at the reef tack and reef clew instead of standard grommets.

I personally prefer a dual line system to a single one, but a single line system is okay if you can reduce the friction and if you are scrupulously careful to make sure the tack grommet is securely pulled forward and down before the clew is secured. If you have wrinkles at the slide which is immediately above the reef grommet, you are putting too much strain on that slide. In high winds, it can be hard to get the tack of the reef tightly secured before the sail powers up.

 

[Hunter216]

Thank Dennis for your response. I'm afraid it's been a Granny sucking eggs time.

This counts as my learn something new every day.

Had to Google the meaning as I had never encountered the phrase before.

 

[Crazy Dave Condon]

When the first Hunter water ballast was being designed having been involved, The 23.5 was meeting a competitor's boat which was easy to rig the mast, launch and sail. The decision was made to go with the B & R rig eliminating a backstay which gave more room in the cockpit and easier to raise and lower the mast. Another factor, the sail was designed to be bigger and as Lars B. told me, more baggier as he wanted more power in the main. He advised the boat would have the sail area of a standard main(figuring you had a backstay) and a 135 -140 genoa. Thus my suggestion of roller furling for the jib was a must unless the customer did not want it. It was offered as an addition. Lars was part of B & R.
The boat was supposed to be an entry level boat with the thought of trailerability. Therefore there were considerations. Many accepted the concept and many decided to leave the boats in the water. Some did not like the design. Therefore, I was not a fan of second reefs nor stack packs if you were trailering a lot. Further, this was an entry level designed boat which many did not like to sail in high airs.

Dennis who is an experienced sailor and that is the key has a second reef. He enjoys sailing in strong airs and I concur with him on a second reef. I would suggest to those who want a second reef, do so but with experienced sailors only or when you have obtained that experience.

As for stack packs, I was not a fan as it took more time and umph to take apart when trailering paticuraly on hot or cold days. With a quick release swivel cam cleat for the main halyard, I could point the boat into the wind with motor started, furl in the jib, and with a quick flick of the wrist lower the main. Then starting quickly in the back, I would flake the mainsail by pulling down and back tying it quickly with several ties and placing the mainsail cover on (at the dock). Tear down was much easier. Therefore, I was not a fan of stack packs, lazy jacks, second reef, etc. when it came to trailering. However there will be those who disagree but each owner has certain criteria and that I respect.
What prompted this response was a reply to Dennis for his valuable impute which he is correct as to sail shape and experience. In fact, if I lived close by, I would join him on a high wind leisurely sail

 

[Dennis Kitchen]

The subject of stack packs and lazy jacks has been raised a couple of times in this thread so allow me; if you please to also weigh in. I made a lazy jack system that I used for ones season and though I loved being able to capture the main when dropping, the rigging/un-rigging annually or more often was a pain. Lazy jacks integral to a stack pack would be even better but still the additional rigging issue. I'm with Dave on that issue. Still, if you're not un-stepping the mast frequently, you'll love lazy jacks.
So let me offer a compromise solution. I made a stack pack with no lazy jacks but with integral sail ties. I can flake the main from the rear and move forward tying it as I go. Then zip it up. When it comes time to trailer I release the sail slugs from the mast and remove the boom; sail and all, and store below. The out haul, reefing line, and topping lift all stay rigged in the boom. ( the topping lift boom portion clips to the mast portion with a leash clip,) The pack wraps around the bolt rope in the foot of the sail and slides into the boom. For a loose footed sail a bolt rope would be sewn into the bottom of the pack. After sailing the halyard gets moved to loops on the pack to support it.

 

[Crazy Dave Condon]

Thanks for the impute Dennis. It is higher to step up onto the cabin top on the 26/260. I look forward to more info from you. Poor Kermit has had to put up with me even at my house on top of my little momtaien

 

[GBGraham]

Last year I had lazy lines and the boat needed a new mainsail cover so to me the obvious path was a stack pack, DK, I can't believe you are complaining about taking an extra 5 minutes to undo the lazy's,

The subject of stack packs and lazy jacks has been raised a couple of times in this thread so allow me; if you please to also weigh in. I made a lazy jack system that I used for ones season and though I loved being able to capture the main when dropping, the rigging/un-rigging annually or more often was a pain. Lazy jacks integral to a stack pack would be even better but still the additional rigging issue. I'm with Dave on that issue. Still, if you're not un-stepping the mast frequently, you'll love lazy jacks.
So let me offer a compromise solution. I made a stack pack with no lazy jacks but with integral sail ties. I can flake the main from the rear and move forward tying it as I go. Then zip it up. When it comes time to trailer I release the sail slugs from the mast and remove the boom; sail and all, and store below. The out haul, reefing line, and topping lift all stay rigged in the boom. ( the topping lift boom portion clips to the mast portion with a leash clip,) The pack wraps around the bolt rope in the foot of the sail and slides into the boom. For a loose footed sail a bolt rope would be sewn into the bottom of the pack. After sailing the halyard gets moved to loops on the pack to support it.View attachment 163578 View attachment 163579

I've answered to this on the dedicated post to the subject "Stack Pack"

 

[DrJudyB]

I like having lazy jacks on some boats with big mainsails, but find them not necessary for boats with smaller mainsails. Especially for shorthanded sailing. (eg. solo or double handed)

I have lazy jacks on my current trailerable boat right now. It's a 240-ish square foot mainsail, which is too big for me to douse and manhandle in winds over 15 kts. We get wind over 20 kts everyday here on San Francisco Bay most of the year. I keep the boat in mast up storage or in the water, so I don't have to fuss with raising the mast if I want to go out for a few hours of sailing.

For trailering to distant locations, we retract the lazy jacks and stow them on the boom and mast. We can pull them down and forward to the gooseneck. We detach the control line on the mast from the "cradle lines" on the boom. It adds an extra 3-5 minutes to the job of raising the mast. It takes less time than feeding the slides into the mast track.

For my 19 foot trailerable, I didn't have lazy jacks. The sail was around 120 sf, which was small enough for me to women handle without lazy jacks sailing solo, even in high winds. I kept that in mast-up storage at my local marina too, so I could sail for a few hours. If you can get mast up storage, it's a great convenience and I found I sailed a lot more often.

According to our records, we built several Hunter 260 mainsails that were around 193 sf, including the roach. We built one 260 mains with a square top that was larger, for a customer who wanted it.

There are many ways folks use trailerable sailboats. You can keep in your driveway on with the mast down, stored at the marina on the trailer with the mast up, or in the water (with bottom paint).

 

[Dennis Kitchen]

DK, I can't believe you are complaining about taking an extra 5 minutes to undo the lazy's,

Yeah, but I'm so good at it! I guess I need to get better at making a lazy jack system..or stop being so lazy.