Adding a bowsprit

[gray_penguin]

Hello all,

We Purchased a 78 Hunter 33 a few months back and I have been doing a lot of research on all types of things to attempt to make it as safe a possible for long range cruising. Lately I have been focusing on standing rigging. I am leaning towards some "none standard" ideas. One being replacing all the Old SS cables with High Tensile Galvanized cable with eye spliced ends. Having way more time then money, I plan to learn and practice tying my own eye splices. I am also thinking about replacing the SS turnbuckles with bronze.

Intertwined in this whole process of research, I have had some questions about changing the "stock" standing rigging layout a little. One being replacing the split back-stay with two full length (stern to masthead) cables.

Second, I have a hanked-on foresail so I will have to use SS for the fore-stay. I would really like to add a bowsprit to allow for mounting anchor rollers. In this process I have had the thought, why not add a second fore-stay in front of the one already in place that the foresail uses. This could be attached to the mast head to the new bowsprit, then bob-stayed to the hull. And this fore fore-stay could be in the High Tensile Galvanized like the 2 back-stays and shrouds. Giving me redundency in my fore-stays like I would have in the back-stays.

Can anyone tell me if any of this is a bad idea and why?

I am new to sailboat ownership and have a degree in mechanical engineering so, I am prone to trying to build a better mousetrap

 

[Ross]

If you are replacing the stainless steel standing rigging with galvanized why not replace the turnbuckles with deadeyes? Just increase a size on the standing rig for increased strength. Make your chain plates wider and thicker and improve the backing plates. Modern swages are as strong as a splice apply service over the assembly and keep it slushed with black paint, linseed oil, pine tar and varnish.
Buy Brian Toss' book "The Riggers Apprentice".

 

[gray_penguin]

If you are replacing the stainless steel standing rigging with galvanized why not replace the turnbuckles with deadeyes? Just increase a size on the standing rig for increased strength. Make your chain plates wider and thicker and improve the backing plates. Modern swages are as strong as a splice apply service over the assembly and keep it slushed with black paint, linseed oil, pine tar and varnish.
Buy Brian Toss' book "The Riggers Apprentice".

If I was replacing the SS cable with old fashion rope or even the new high Tech rope maybe a deadeye but I don't see how saying I am thinking about changing from SS to Galv should warrant this suggestion

Swages are very expensive and require having it done by someone with the proper equipment, putting eyes in cable I can do myself for little money. And if you have to service and paint or tar anyways why go the expensive route?

My main point of question was the fore and aft stay redundancy. And although I failed to mention it, I am thinking about beefing up the chain plates in the process also.

 

[RichH]

Second, I have a hanked-on foresail so I will have to use SS for the fore-stay. I would really like to add a bowsprit to allow for mounting anchor rollers. In this process I have had the thought, why not add a second fore-stay in front of the one already in place that the foresail uses. This could be attached to the mast head to the new bowsprit, then bob-stayed to the hull. And this fore fore-stay could be in the High Tensile Galvanized like the 2 back-stays and shrouds. Giving me redundency in my fore-stays like I would have in the back-stays.

Can anyone tell me if any of this is a bad idea and why?

I am new to sailboat ownership and have a degree in mechanical engineering so, I am prone to trying to build a better mousetrap

The rigging does a LOT more than holding the mast up. The ***shape*** of the headsails depends on the tension of the head/forestays ... usually are cut for 'nominal' tension of 15% UTS for sailing in 'normal' conditions; this equates to the prediction of the distributive catenary sag (to leeward) along such windloaded head/fore stays --- sagging off to leeward when windloaded. Adding an additional 'forestay' will require that you additionally tension by a 'reaction' means, such as by intermediate shrouds or at least running backstays, etc. etc. - which you can easily calculate by doing proper 3 dimensional 'static' trigonometric analysis of a 'free-body' - just make some assumptions on the differential loadings on the distributive loadings on full windloaded sails - and 'run' the static numbers! You'll want 15% tension. If your calculated rig goes much beyond 30% UTS, you exceed the fatigue endurance limit of most common 'boat' materials, greatly shortening the 'cyclical loading service' life.
Without being able to adjust the tensions 'on-the-fly' due to the 'load sharing' of multiple headstay/forestay due to the differential windloading (and tension sharing between the head/forestays) ---- such will become a very 'cranky' boat with respect to performance, etc. Without some quite sophisticated on-the-fly tensioning means, the head/forestays will be 'dramatically' sagged off to leeward!!!!!!!! Adding additional headstays & bobstays overly complicates the rigging (tensions), ... AND the chainplate strength requirements. Figure on a calculated 'factor of safety' of 3:1 (or more) for the evaluation of all the rigging attachments and you'll be 'close' to standard marine design for 'offshore' applications .... all these calcs., including the safety factors is typically based on a 'force' heeling the boat at ** a 45 deg. angle*** if you want to do the 'reverse/reaction calculations'.

A sloop rig is a SIMPLE rig to set up and handle, adding additional stays and shrouds can unnecessarily complicate quite a 'pure' design. Stay tensions determine the important (aerodynamic) SHAPE of headsails.

 

[Stu Jackson]

Bowspirt

One of the downsides of a bowsprit is that it places a moment arm in front of the boat. You're an engineer, so you know what that is, right? One of our C34 colleagues went cruising from Canada down the west coast to Mexico. He has an older boat, like mine, with what I refer to as "our toy bow roller."

Many of our owners opted to add extended bow rollers to their boats, much like the newer boats. My friend concluded that the addition of length to the bow, with a long overhanging anchor roller, was actually counterproductive. The forces on the anchor are further out on the moment arm and create a great deal of pressure on the fasteners to hold it in place.

In addition, once you stretch it out, you may need a bobstay.

Here are some pictures of the extended and toy rollers.

http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,5336.0.html

and

http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,4457.0.html

 

[Joe]

Ahh....... the magic combination... new boat owner + engineer... Listen, I'm absolutely not and engineer.. heck, I had no idea what RichH said in his piece... but rather than redesign a boat I would be more inclined to just oversize the exisiting rigging and reinforce the chainplates. Glassing in some additional stringers and reinforcing the bulkheads would reduce the twisting stress on the boat.

Adding a sprit could be advantageous for sail options... I like the free flying, wire luff type reaching sails... but for added support and safety I would look in the opposite direction. In other words, consider adding a removable inner forestay. When conditions require extra strength on the rig it will most likely mean a reduction of sail. The extended sprit is not useful in this situation. More desireable is to rig your storm jib lower and closer to the boat's center. Installing an inner forestay allows this option, plus you may decide to counteract the force of the inner forestay on the mast with the addition of some kind of running backstay.... i

In additon, a dedicated track on the mast for a storm trysail adds to the safety and handling of the boat when things get hairy. A boom gallows would be another good safety addition to secure the boom while using the trysail.

Here's another suggestion.... make sure the drains in the cockpit are adequate to purge the water quickly should you get pooped. Along with that, some kind of bridge deck is desirable to keep water out of the cabin. You should also have a way to lock the washboards in place in case you get knocked down. This is to prevent losing them and allowing water to pour in the cabin before the boat rights itself.

Good luck, stay safe, have fun.

 

[RAD]

A bow sprit added to an Oday

I have an Oday 32 and one of the first items installed was a bow sprit,windlass and anchor roller and like you the thought of a bob stay and moving the roller furling forward came to mind but I kept it simple and disconnected the forstay and put the bow sprit right over the stem fitting then reattached the forstay......keep it simple
also our bow sprit acts as a great step to board cause we bow in at our marina

 

[Ed Schenck]

The H33 Owner's Mods forum has both a bow sprit project( http://hunter.sailboatowners.com/in...7&cat_id=28&aid=7324&page=article&mn=33_77-83 ) and a bow roller project detailed with pictures. Do you really want to go offshore with standing rigging that you designed and installed?

 

[gray_penguin]

Thanks RichH, Very good points! I was not taking into account two fore-stays would cause the tension in both to be halved to match the designed fore-stay tension. That would cause the inner stay to curve more when in use and mess up sail shape. The fact that the fore-stay carries horizontal loads unlike any of the other standing rigging, makes it different to deal with. I still think having two separate back stays in place of the one that splits would be ok (maybe). But I will stick with the way it is.

Stu: The forces of having the anchors hanging past the point of the bow is what got me thinking about using the standing rigging to carry some of that load.

Joe: I only have the degree, I am not actually a practicing one. Which is even more dangerous most likely I will keep the Tri-sail track and boom gallows ideas in my list of things to think about! Extra cockpit drains are on my list of things to do. I am not sure exactly what you mean by "Bridge Deck", the cabin entrance is higher and inset from the cockpit area on the 78 Hunter 33. And I have had thoughts of adding swing out doors to the entrance but just not sure yet. Having extra boards would be very wise though. I have never been very fond of the cabin entrances on most sailboats but really not sure anything else really works.

Rad: thanks, I think we are on the same page I like the one in your reply, looks good.

Ed: That is the one I was wanted to add to my Hunter 33. I think I will ask him for more info if he has it.

And Yes, I would rather install the rigging myself and know I have NO ONE but myself to blame if it breaks. Like I said, I have lots of time and limited money. Galvanized standing rigging was good for a long time and is still used in the commercial fishing industry. It takes maintaining I know. But having the ability to put an eye in cable when on my journey would go a long ways. I can carry 1 or 2 cables cut to fit the longest need and cut it down to fit any where I might need it. No waiting for someone else to send me pressed on cable ends, if someone else is even available. The Norseman style cable ends do sound like a good middle ground to my ideas but the cost of those are hard to take. Could be good to have a couple in the emergency stash though.

 

[Ross]

This is what I was referring to as swage fittings. : http://www.mcmaster.com/#wire-rope-swage-fitting-tools/=87zo54
These and wire rope clips allow the most effective and least costly means of terminating a wire rope.
Dead eyes like galvanized wire rope have been around for a long time and are, as you noted, making a come back in high tech synthetic lines.
The difference in weight per foot of wire rope will not be a reason to not increase rigging size.

 

[gray_penguin]

This is what I was referring to as swage fittings. : http://www.mcmaster.com/#wire-rope-swage-fitting-tools/=87zo54
These and wire rope clips allow the most effective and least costly means of terminating a wire rope.
Dead eyes like galvanized wire rope have been around for a long time and are, as you noted, making a come back in high tech synthetic lines.
The difference in weight per foot of wire rope will not be a reason to not increase rigging size.

Ahh, I understand what you meant about the swages now. Still not sure about how the deadeyes would work though. I assume your talking about these : Deadeyes

I do plan to increase the rigging diameter which will require beefing up the chain plates and fore/aft stay attachments.

 

[Ross]

That is the ticket. Cut them out with a band saw, turn them on a lathe, drill the holes and chisel them fair, finish them with linseed oil and lubricate them with tallow. Set them up with a tackle.

 

[seanshine]

What Joe said. You wouldn't be making your boat safer, just more primative.

 

[Ross]

What Joe said. You wouldn't be making your boat safer, just more primative.

Not primative just simpler. There are modern aluminum deadeyes for modern high tech synthetic lines.
http://insidepracticalsailor.com/synthetic-standing-rigging-from-colligo/

 

[Deadline]

Bowsprit kit

For years I've posted info and pix on HOW for an eight-foot bowspirt, of which four feet tucks inside the anchor locker. It's a 1-inch galvanized pipe inside a 1.25-inch galvanized pipe, providing more than sufficient rigidity.

The tack line and two sheets are permanently deployed for quick set-up.
Be happy to answer any questions. bodonovan@vagazette.com

 

[drbeer]

Where does one buy a bowsprit? (a sail rigging dilema)

I have a Hunter Edge I bought last year. I really like the boat a lot but there are a few things I'm looking to change regarding the sail configurations that owe to the foresail I'm using.

Prior to owning the Edge I had a 26M. It didn't work out well (long story so I won't go into it) for us and when we decided to get rid of it we stripped it of anything we could use on the new Hunter. This included the 150% Genoa and McFurler (a mediocre knock off of CDIs Flexible Furler) and with the help of a Johnson Lever it installed perfectly where the Hunter's forestay would have gone.

The thing about this is that because of the geometry of the genoa line blocks on the Edge it just isn't possible to let that big of a genoa all the way out when running downwind. I don't think moving the blocks or installing a track for them would help.

So I've been trying to think about how to set things up so that I can let this sail all the way out when the situation calls for it, but it seems like any solution requires having the lines to the 150% genoa outboard of the side stays. The problem with doing that is that I don't run downwind as often as I sail with the wind abeam so most of the time I wouldn't want the sail let out that much and having the genoa lines outboard of the stays doesn't work that well sailing with the wind abeam, especially sailing close to the wind.

What I've therefore been considering is putting the stock forestay back in so that I can use the jib which the boat came with and then installing a bowsprit that I can connect the furler with the 150% genoa to. That would allow me to rig the lines to the furled genoa outboard of the side stays and use it as more of a genaker while still having a standard jib (which I might get another furler for).

I've searched online but haven't had any luck finding a bowsprit.

1) Does this plan sound like it makes any sense?

2) If so where does one buy a bowsprit?

thanks..

 

[Brian M H23]

First off, a swage is not that expensive and is much more secure than crimp-on copper sleeves. A properly done swage, when cut apart, makes the whole assembly look like one piece of metal.

As I have replaced my rigging, one by one purchased "swage-less" mechanical fittings. They are a little pricey, but re-useable, & maintainable. You could surely use galvanized wire in a mechanical fitting to cut down the wire costs.

 

[newboatowner]

First off, a swage is not that expensive and is much more secure than crimp-on copper sleeves. A properly done swage, when cut apart, makes the whole assembly look like one piece of metal.

As I have replaced my rigging, one by one purchased "swage-less" mechanical fittings. They are a little pricey, but re-useable, & maintainable. You could surely use galvanized wire in a mechanical fitting to cut down the wire costs.

I am a relatively new boat owner myself and I have little experience with such technical issues as you have raised but I must tell you that I thought that I was the only one going through experiences while sailing that took all the pleasure (?) out of boating. Every time I go out to the boat, I say to myself "you think that you're going sailing!" I spend more time at the dock than on the water. Good luck with your project.

 

[Ross]

First off, a swage is not that expensive and is much more secure than crimp-on copper sleeves. A properly done swage, when cut apart, makes the whole assembly look like one piece of metal.

As I have replaced my rigging, one by one purchased "swage-less" mechanical fittings. They are a little pricey, but re-useable, & maintainable. You could surely use galvanized wire in a mechanical fitting to cut down the wire costs.

Properly applied crimp on sleeves will be stronger than the cable. If he is forming eyes with the cable then they are superior to an eye splice.
http://www.beavertoolsales.com/main.html?src=/#1,0

 

[gray_penguin]

First off, a swage is not that expensive and is much more secure than crimp-on copper sleeves. A properly done swage, when cut apart, makes the whole assembly look like one piece of metal.

As I have replaced my rigging, one by one purchased "swage-less" mechanical fittings. They are a little pricey, but re-useable, & maintainable. You could surely use galvanized wire in a mechanical fitting to cut down the wire costs.

I came across this article : http://www.bosunsupplies.com/goodoldboatquickattach.cfm These look to me like the way to go. The question I would have is would there be a corrosion issue mixing the Galvanized wire with the Stainless fitting?