Adding a 2nd winch and more

[zinahewitt]

Hi All,

I have a boat, it is a Dufour 34 feet, 1975.
I wanted to add a second winch so I can trim the spinnaker.
Right now I just furl the jib completely before raising the spinnaker and then re-use the winches.
It flies but I have never gybed and I could use the Jib to help lower the spinnaker better.

There is a base there in the back it has wood backing. I guess a second winch was an option the owner never took.

So question 1.
The big main Jib winch is Lewmar 43.
Do I put a Lewmar 40 or a Lewmar 25
Those were the two options in 1975
or do I just half it and get a newer Lewmar 30
?
All would fit the 40 with what looks like 1/4 inch.

Question 2.
The photo in Item 2, what is that for ?
What went over there ?
It also has backing.

Question 3
Do I add a pulley to the bottom of the stanchion or technically it is the pulpit , stern pulpit.
Will it be fine with the pull of the spinnaker line ?
Photo Item 3


Question 4
Do I add another cleat Jam Cleat to the New winch I am adding.
I assume it would not be best practice to share jam cleats.
I can't remember if there is backing but not too hard to add it.

Thank you for your time and happy sailing!

 

[dlochner]

The pad in Photo 2 is for a turning block. In order to get a better feed to the winch, the jib sheet should go through the block on the track, then back to the turning block and then to the winch.

Use a self-tailing winch for the secondary winches and you won't need a cleat for them. The ST winch will make it much easier for the person trimming the guy as it can be a one person job.

 

[Joe]

Spinnaker sheets should go as far back as possible. A BLOCK (don't call them pulley's, please) clipped to the stanchion base you indicated would work. The sheet them comes forward to the winch. You can put the cleat anywhere you prefer... you could use that platforn in the second picture to mount a cleat.... just mount it in a convenient direction for the trimmer... which would probably be forward. Anyway, so far I think you're on the right track. As far as winches go, it will depend on your budget, of course, but honestly, you don't need a big powerful 2 speed, self taiing winch for this job. If you're going to spend that kind of money, it would make more sense to replace the primaries with self tailing 40's or 44's and relocate your existing standards to the secondary position. I honestly would not spend a lot of money on these winches. On my boat I have a pair of Lewmar #7 standard single speeds. You just don't have the same load on the downwind sail like you do on the unwind sails. If you want to go self tailing I'd stick to the single speed Lewmar 15 or 16s. You don't need 2 speeds for this.

HOWEVER... and please read this carefully... You will find when working with a spinnaker that you will not need a large winch. In most cases, as you get handy with the big sail, you'll find that more often the trimmer will want to move to the forward, windward side of the cockpit so he can see the luff of the sail. So they will use the secondary winch to redirect the sheet to the other side of the cockpit and simply hold the line all the time, or use a cabin top halyard winch, or the primary headsail winch on the windward side of the cockpit. I'm telling you this because that's how things developed on my boat as my crew got better at working the chute.

The most important set up is to have a proper spinnaker halyard run through a SWIVEL block at the top of the mast above the forestay. The spinnaker flies in front of all other rigging. The sheets should be run as far aft as possible before redirection forward(you've already addressed). If it's an asymmetric spinnaker you need to install an adjustable tack line that is controlled from the cockpit. If you're using a symmetrical spinnaker which requires a pole... you need to understand the needed rigging. Topping lift, foreguy and after guy... I implore you to research this on your own, it's too much to explain here. Finally, and super important, you need to install a twing, or tweaker, on each sheet. The twing is a device that controls the sheet's vertical angle to the sail.... just like the jib leads do for the headsail. The tweaker is needed to keep the clew of the spinnaker from bouncing and to help maintain trim shape.. along with the tack line. A twing is simply a small block that the sheet runs through, a length of line is attached to the twing block and run to another block on the boat.. a stanchion base is a good location.... then cleated wherever you find convenient. Use the smallest blocks that will accommodate the spinnaker sheet... the lighter weight the better.

So............ this is a LOT.... am I right? So don't spend a lot of money on secondary winches and spend more time understanding how spinnakers work. Once you figure it out and get rigged up... your sailing experience explodes.

 

[zinahewitt]

The pad in Photo 2 is for a turning block. In order to get a better feed to the winch, the jib sheet should go through the block on the track, then back to the turning block and then to the winch.

Use a self-tailing winch for the secondary winches and you won't need a cleat for them. The ST winch will make it much easier for the person trimming the guy as it can be a one person job.

Let's see.
Thanks for telling me photo 2 is the block.
I ordered the originals and will mount them.
That should help my jib sheets.

There is another cleat which can't be seen in the photo, since I already have a cleat, I skipped on the self tailing winches as they are *8 the price or regular ones.

Thanks again.

 

[zinahewitt]

Spinnaker sheets should go as far back as possible. A BLOCK (don't call them pulley's, please) clipped to the stanchion base you indicated would work. The sheet them comes forward to the winch. You can put the cleat anywhere you prefer... you could use that platforn in the second picture to mount a cleat.... just mount it in a convenient direction for the trimmer... which would probably be forward. Anyway, so far I think you're on the right track. As far as winches go, it will depend on your budget, of course, but honestly, you don't need a big powerful 2 speed, self taiing winch for this job. If you're going to spend that kind of money, it would make more sense to replace the primaries with self tailing 40's or 44's and relocate your existing standards to the secondary position. I honestly would not spend a lot of money on these winches. On my boat I have a pair of Lewmar #7 standard single speeds. You just don't have the same load on the downwind sail like you do on the unwind sails. If you want to go self tailing I'd stick to the single speed Lewmar 15 or 16s. You don't need 2 speeds for this.

HOWEVER... and please read this carefully... You will find when working with a spinnaker that you will not need a large winch. In most cases, as you get handy with the big sail, you'll find that more often the trimmer will want to move to the forward, windward side of the cockpit so he can see the luff of the sail. So they will use the secondary winch to redirect the sheet to the other side of the cockpit and simply hold the line all the time, or use a cabin top halyard winch, or the primary headsail winch on the windward side of the cockpit. I'm telling you this because that's how things developed on my boat as my crew got better at working the chute.

The most important set up is to have a proper spinnaker halyard run through a SWIVEL block at the top of the mast above the forestay. The spinnaker flies in front of all other rigging. The sheets should be run as far aft as possible before redirection forward(you've already addressed). If it's an asymmetric spinnaker you need to install an adjustable tack line that is controlled from the cockpit. If you're using a symmetrical spinnaker which requires a pole... you need to understand the needed rigging. Topping lift, foreguy and after guy... I implore you to research this on your own, it's too much to explain here. Finally, and super important, you need to install a twing, or tweaker, on each sheet. The twing is a device that controls the sheet's vertical angle to the sail.... just like the jib leads do for the headsail. The tweaker is needed to keep the clew of the spinnaker from bouncing and to help maintain trim shape.. along with the tack line. A twing is simply a small block that the sheet runs through, a length of line is attached to the twing block and run to another block on the boat.. a stanchion base is a good location.... then cleated wherever you find convenient. Use the smallest blocks that will accommodate the spinnaker sheet... the lighter weight the better.

So............ this is a LOT.... am I right? So don't spend a lot of money on secondary winches and spend more time understanding how spinnakers work. Once you figure it out and get rigged up... your sailing experience explodes.

Thanks for the tutorial.
I put a block on the stanchion base.
I have two winches I will add next week.
Regular 40s, which is what the boat was offered with at the time.

I have a swivel block and the spinnaker flies in front of the rigging.

I don't have twings or tweakers. I think they would be an overkill at this stage for me but thanks for letting me know about them, I researched them.

Hope you have a nice day.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

You are lucky to have those pads already built in! Take advantage and do this right. Put a foot block on the pad next to the winch pad and install either a Lewmar ST30 or ST40. Very easy, no need for separate cleats or stanchion mounted blocks (although it doesn't hurt to have a pair of snatch blocks that can be used for several purposes). Attached is the Lewmar Winch Selection Guide.

https://www.lewmar.com/Winch-Selection-Guide.

I have 2 Lewmar Evo-Sport winches ST30 that I haven't yet installed for the same purpose.

BTW, don't you have a foot block on a pad for the genoa winch? I can see the winch in the photo but not what is next to it (or in front of it).

p.s. You could save on cost and mounting complications if you attached a good block to the stanchion as you pointed out. It looks like it is in a good position. I'm not a big fan of attaching anything with a load at the base of the stanchions, but I do run the furling line on small blocks attached to stanchions ...

 

[Scott T-Bird]

Actually, I think Joe is on the right track now that I notice that your primaries are not self-tailing. As I found out with my latest boat, self tailing winches for the genoa sheets are a game changer. I'd put way more priority on replacing self tailing for the primaries and use your primaries for the secondary winches (only if they fit on the pads). I can't tell but it looks like the secondary pads may not be big enough for the 43's you have if you were to put the old winches back there. What do you have on the cabin top? Maybe there is a 3-way swap?

Well, you've got more to think about, I suppose! If it were me, I'd probably just replace the primaries first and then buy the secondaries later.

 

[zinahewitt]

Actually, I think Joe is on the right track now that I notice that your primaries are not self-tailing. As I found out with my latest boat, self tailing winches for the genoa sheets are a game changer. I'd put way more priority on replacing self tailing for the primaries and use your primaries for the secondary winches (only if they fit on the pads). I can't tell but it looks like the secondary pads may not be big enough for the 43's you have if you were to put the old winches back there. What do you have on the cabin top? Maybe there is a 3-way swap?

Well, you've got more to think about, I suppose! If it were me, I'd probably just replace the primaries first and then buy the secondaries later.

Hi,
The 43s would not fit as secondaries, so I would have to bin them.
Self tailing 43s cost an arm and a leg, so out of my budget.
Cabin tops are 8,8,16. The 43s won't fit on the pad as it has the winches + cleats on them.

I looked at the old photo I found of the boat
and the blocks are attached to the stern pulpit so should be ok.
I too have the furling line on them.

TW, don't you have a foot block on a pad for the genoa winch?
I'll add one next week.


Thanks for the input.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

That advertisement does a pretty good job at describing the set up! So it looks like they put a pad for just one foot block and I suppose it was originally for optional hardware. I suppose that you have your genoa sheet coming directly off the fairlead on the rail. It looks like the foot block pad is positioned so it could have a dual purpose to feed either the primary or secondary winches. I think adding a footblock would be a good addition. I'd guess that the genoa sheet coming back from the fairlead could present a tripping hazard on the side deck when the sheet is loaded.

On my Catalina, I have a footblock but it is close to and only useful for the primary winch. I think this set up on the Dufour is a better way.

So, the empty winch pads are not big enough for the old 43's - that makes sense. I'd guess that they are big enough for ST30s and I think that is the way I would do it, plus adding the foot blocks. I suppose you can live with the old 43s in the original position until the budget allows for a modern upgrade! There is probably no reason why you couldn't use ST30's for the genoa sheets in most conditions anyway! According to the Lewmar chart, it seems you could. Maybe you wouldn't want to use them under the heaviest loads on largest genoa. You could end up using your secondaries most of the time, especially if you single-hand, you can reach them more easily.

So you have 3 cabin top winches and do you have 2 mast-mounted winches as shown in the picture? That is a nice assembly of winches! You could have 9 altogether?!

 

[zinahewitt]

That advertisement does a pretty good job at describing the set up! So it looks like they put a pad for just one foot block and I suppose it was originally for optional hardware. I suppose that you have your genoa sheet coming directly off the fairlead on the rail. It looks like the foot block pad is positioned so it could have a dual purpose to feed either the primary or secondary winches. I think adding a footblock would be a good addition. I'd guess that the genoa sheet coming back from the fairlead could present a tripping hazard on the side deck when the sheet is loaded.

On my Catalina, I have a footblock but it is close to and only useful for the primary winch. I think this set up on the Dufour is a better way.

So, the empty winch pads are not big enough for the old 43's - that makes sense. I'd guess that they are big enough for ST30s and I think that is the way I would do it, plus adding the foot blocks. I suppose you can live with the old 43s in the original position until the budget allows for a modern upgrade! There is probably no reason why you couldn't use ST30's for the genoa sheets in most conditions anyway! According to the Lewmar chart, it seems you could. Maybe you wouldn't want to use them under the heaviest loads on largest genoa. You could end up using your secondaries most of the time, especially if you single-hand, you can reach them more easily.

So you have 3 cabin top winches and do you have 2 mast-mounted winches as shown in the picture? That is a nice assembly of winches! You could have 9 altogether?!

3 winches on the mast
Happy to hear I bought a nice boat.

 

[thinwater]

I really have a strong preference for cam cleats for spin sheet tails, including my last boat (cruising cat) which had a large chute. They release faster and are easier to use when trimming.

There is a common misconception that the cleat will hold a high load. In fact, it will never hold more than a hand tailing load, unless you don't put enough turns on the winch.

No fairlead and mount it low; the inside of the coaming (vertical face) can be a good location if the coaming top is narrow. You cleat it by pushing down on the tail (not the cam cleat) with the heel of your hand.

 

[zinahewitt]

Added the second winch.
It was Lewmar 40, the old ones non self tailing were $100 each.
There was a cleat next to it, so I didn't need the cam cleat or the self tailing .

I found the original cheek blocks, they were $150, they are pretty massive.

Port side is easy install on the Dufour 34 1975. You just drill, seal and mount.
Starboard side you need to remove one roof panel with 12 screws, drill, seal and mount.

 

[Hollyberry]

Nice work... The nice thing about using the footblock for your jib sheets is that the lead angle to the winch doesn't change as you move your jib track blocks. On some boats with a strong sheer moving the jib blocks forward for a small headsail creates a flat approach angle that can lead to overrides..