My former wife and her boyfriend are planning a 5 year cruise around the world in their keel-type O'Day 25. They are planning to take my 10 and a half year old son. I have concerns regarding the boat/equipment, their knowledge and experience, their planned itinerary, and how this impacts on my son's safety and well-being. Although I am personally attracted to the concept of long distance cruising, I have many questions about the safety of this particular endeavor for my son. They plan to leave in mid to late August starting with a Trans-Atlantic passage from Halifax to the Azores. Here are some questions that I hope this group can answer: Is an O'Day 25 an appropriate boat for such a trip? If not, can it be modified to make such a trip safely? What modifications would be required? Are two adult crew sufficient? What is the minimum experience that the skipper and mate should possess to make such a journey? -As crew on other vessels -Previous sailing experience on this boat -In storms, fog and other adverse conditions -Extended passages -Other What sort of knowledge would be required? -Navigation (including celestial?) -Meteorology -Medical (including specialized knowledge relating to children far from medical services) -Dealing with storms -Provisioning -Other What is the minimum gear required for a trans-atlantic passage? Motor, life raft, instruments, medical, EPIRB, other emergency gear, fuel, water, extra sails, other provisions. Boat set up? This boat has never been set up for long distance cruising. Apparently it has been gutted and they are rebuilding the inside. What sort of modifications would be required to the structure, rigging, and sails. Are there any special safety considerations for traveling with a child? What sort of shake-down trip would be advisable before embarking on a trans-Atlantic passage? Would you undertake a trans-Altantic passage in such a boat? If not, why not? If so, under what circumstances and how long do you think it might take? What would you consider to be the minimum boat, gear, knowledge, experience, and crew for such a trip? Sorry for the length of this post. As you can imagine, I deeply appreciate any time and energy you invest to reply to even some of these questions. Paul Meyer Fredericton, New Brunswick, Canada Any comments not appropriate for the list you can email me direct at pmeyer@nbnet.nb.ca
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Size doesn't matter (and other thoughts)
Although I don't know much about the O'Day in particular, don't be worried just about size. Tristan Jones sailed all over the world in a Sea Dart, a 17 ft boat (LWL, so maybe more like 20 ft LOA). The Pardey's sailed for years on a 25 ft boat. A lot of people actually say that smaller is safer. There was just an article on schooling in one of the magazines or on one of the web-sites. Check Sail or Cruising World or SailNet articles. There are suggestions for what to do about school. (Travel itself can be good, but you need to keep up with reading and math, and whatever else they teach.) FWIW a lot of people today get caught up with gear. I can't leave until I have 2 GPS, 1 radar, an SSB, .... If you can afford them, great, but people have been sailing without them for a long time. GPS is good unless you know how to use a sextant. Some type of emergency craft. This doesn't have to be $5000 life boat, but something ... if money were no object I would have tinker...dinghy and lifeboat in one package...not cheap.... EPIRB .... 406 MHz with a link to a handheld GPS. You won't fit much more into a 25 ft. boat.
Although I don't know much about the O'Day in particular, don't be worried just about size. Tristan Jones sailed all over the world in a Sea Dart, a 17 ft boat (LWL, so maybe more like 20 ft LOA). The Pardey's sailed for years on a 25 ft boat. A lot of people actually say that smaller is safer. There was just an article on schooling in one of the magazines or on one of the web-sites. Check Sail or Cruising World or SailNet articles. There are suggestions for what to do about school. (Travel itself can be good, but you need to keep up with reading and math, and whatever else they teach.) FWIW a lot of people today get caught up with gear. I can't leave until I have 2 GPS, 1 radar, an SSB, .... If you can afford them, great, but people have been sailing without them for a long time. GPS is good unless you know how to use a sextant. Some type of emergency craft. This doesn't have to be $5000 life boat, but something ... if money were no object I would have tinker...dinghy and lifeboat in one package...not cheap.... EPIRB .... 406 MHz with a link to a handheld GPS. You won't fit much more into a 25 ft. boat.
Who gives a s--t about the boat?
Paul: I would not worry about the boat, I'd just worry about my son. I do not know the laws in your country, but in the US you can prevent her from taking the child out of the country. I think I'd get an attorney and check on your parental rights! And no, this is NOT an appropriate craft for such a trip! But, it CAN make it. I made a passage from Hawaii to San Deigo in a relatively fast boat last summer (Santa Cruz 52) it was about 2800 miles and took 14 days. We had 5 aboard and only 4 of us stood watch. This was quite an ordeal and with only two people standing watch they will be sleep deprived quickly. We also had a powerful autopilot so we did not need to steer all of the time. As I said, "Check your parental rights". If you can keep him with you, just let them go and find out for themselves.
Paul: I would not worry about the boat, I'd just worry about my son. I do not know the laws in your country, but in the US you can prevent her from taking the child out of the country. I think I'd get an attorney and check on your parental rights! And no, this is NOT an appropriate craft for such a trip! But, it CAN make it. I made a passage from Hawaii to San Deigo in a relatively fast boat last summer (Santa Cruz 52) it was about 2800 miles and took 14 days. We had 5 aboard and only 4 of us stood watch. This was quite an ordeal and with only two people standing watch they will be sleep deprived quickly. We also had a powerful autopilot so we did not need to steer all of the time. As I said, "Check your parental rights". If you can keep him with you, just let them go and find out for themselves.
What he said
I gotta go with Mr Dion here. Until I saw his post I had knots in my stomach worrying about the poor little guy. I scarcely trust my ex- and her BF to take the kids camping for a weekend-- one reason why I have custody of them. And as the non-custodial parent she will not even let me relocate to Virginia for a better job. The non-custodial parent has plenty of rights. Exercise them. And God bless. JC
I gotta go with Mr Dion here. Until I saw his post I had knots in my stomach worrying about the poor little guy. I scarcely trust my ex- and her BF to take the kids camping for a weekend-- one reason why I have custody of them. And as the non-custodial parent she will not even let me relocate to Virginia for a better job. The non-custodial parent has plenty of rights. Exercise them. And God bless. JC
Question is for the courts, not the website
Consult a lawyer and get an injunction.... YESTERDAY!! Sorry to hear of your troubles. Best Regards, Rob p.s. - for comparison, my aunt and her former husband took my cousin on a five year jaunt aboard an Ingrid 42, and she said she wouldn't do it again if she could do it over.
Consult a lawyer and get an injunction.... YESTERDAY!! Sorry to hear of your troubles. Best Regards, Rob p.s. - for comparison, my aunt and her former husband took my cousin on a five year jaunt aboard an Ingrid 42, and she said she wouldn't do it again if she could do it over.
Get to Court
I have to agree that this is not a boat issue. If your ex-wife wants to go cruising around the world for 5 years that is certainly her business. But depriving you of five years enjoyment while your son grows is completely out of line. In this state, generally, one parent can't leave the area with the children without getting the consent of the other parent. If your exwife feels strongly about taking this trip she should leave the boy with you and have a good time. Otherwise, parenting brings responsibilities, and one of them may be deferring this trip until the child is older. My kids are 28 and 30 now and I had to go to war a few times to protect visitation rights when it was a more difficult thing for a man to do, and I can tell you my kids appreciate today those efforts I made to keep them in my life. Your son will too. This is not about how safe the boat is. I would not care if this was a 100 foot fully crewed professional boat...five years without your kid???? Let us know how this turns out. It raises some interesting questions about parents rights as it relates to cruising. Dan Jonas (S/V Feije)
I have to agree that this is not a boat issue. If your ex-wife wants to go cruising around the world for 5 years that is certainly her business. But depriving you of five years enjoyment while your son grows is completely out of line. In this state, generally, one parent can't leave the area with the children without getting the consent of the other parent. If your exwife feels strongly about taking this trip she should leave the boy with you and have a good time. Otherwise, parenting brings responsibilities, and one of them may be deferring this trip until the child is older. My kids are 28 and 30 now and I had to go to war a few times to protect visitation rights when it was a more difficult thing for a man to do, and I can tell you my kids appreciate today those efforts I made to keep them in my life. Your son will too. This is not about how safe the boat is. I would not care if this was a 100 foot fully crewed professional boat...five years without your kid???? Let us know how this turns out. It raises some interesting questions about parents rights as it relates to cruising. Dan Jonas (S/V Feije)
just my thoughts
Paul, 5 poeple responded and 4 men were concerned with you seeing your son and his safety, the one woman was obsessed with the boat and emergency equipment! Do you see a trend here? There is no way in HELL that my x-wife would take my son on a five year trip away from me no matter what size boat and experience the crew have or don't have. Please heed the advise already give to get a lawyer NOW and stop this crazyness!!! In my view the boat is not approiate for the trip and you know if the crew is capable or not ( I think you feel they are not) This is nothing but a very selfish woman who is going to cut your son out of your life for years and most likely for ever !
Paul, 5 poeple responded and 4 men were concerned with you seeing your son and his safety, the one woman was obsessed with the boat and emergency equipment! Do you see a trend here? There is no way in HELL that my x-wife would take my son on a five year trip away from me no matter what size boat and experience the crew have or don't have. Please heed the advise already give to get a lawyer NOW and stop this crazyness!!! In my view the boat is not approiate for the trip and you know if the crew is capable or not ( I think you feel they are not) This is nothing but a very selfish woman who is going to cut your son out of your life for years and most likely for ever !
son doesnt go
no way is this the boat or the crew for such an endevour. the son stays home with you. call your lawyer, do what it takes to keep him home and safe. the 25 is an inland and sheltered water boat. the idea that the bf and ex are even thinking this is the boat to go in suggests they are illequiped and naieve at best. im with the other posts , she cant take him that long your rights are being trampled on. CALL THE LAWYER NOW!!!let us know how this turns out please. tm
no way is this the boat or the crew for such an endevour. the son stays home with you. call your lawyer, do what it takes to keep him home and safe. the 25 is an inland and sheltered water boat. the idea that the bf and ex are even thinking this is the boat to go in suggests they are illequiped and naieve at best. im with the other posts , she cant take him that long your rights are being trampled on. CALL THE LAWYER NOW!!!let us know how this turns out please. tm
Another option
Why don't you go with them? another hand for watches and crew, and you and your son can both get a lifetime experience. plus if you kick in some bucks you can get a better boat for the journey. I know when ania Abei (sp?) went around the world solo at 18 years of age I saw her boat and it was custom built for the trip, alot tougher than an O'Day 25 but it did use an outboard auxiliary instead of an inboard. It was for sale in Newport after the trip. I can't imagine 3 or 4 people on a 25 for this much time. not enough room!!!!! dave
Why don't you go with them? another hand for watches and crew, and you and your son can both get a lifetime experience. plus if you kick in some bucks you can get a better boat for the journey. I know when ania Abei (sp?) went around the world solo at 18 years of age I saw her boat and it was custom built for the trip, alot tougher than an O'Day 25 but it did use an outboard auxiliary instead of an inboard. It was for sale in Newport after the trip. I can't imagine 3 or 4 people on a 25 for this much time. not enough room!!!!! dave
Let couple prove themselves then child
I want to trust that the mother is concerned with her child's wellbeing also. I would let the couple build the boat and prove it out and also prove out their skills. Then let the child be with them for a couple of weeks say in France or the Mediterranean. Then bring the child home and see what he thinks of it. If it is positive schedule another couple of weeks in Africa or Asia. There is a lot of education in sailing a boat and visiting other countries but I would let the couple educate theirselves first and then the child. If the mother then thinks it's safe then I would let the child go for a couple of weeks.
I want to trust that the mother is concerned with her child's wellbeing also. I would let the couple build the boat and prove it out and also prove out their skills. Then let the child be with them for a couple of weeks say in France or the Mediterranean. Then bring the child home and see what he thinks of it. If it is positive schedule another couple of weeks in Africa or Asia. There is a lot of education in sailing a boat and visiting other countries but I would let the couple educate theirselves first and then the child. If the mother then thinks it's safe then I would let the child go for a couple of weeks.
Walts compromise
Walt has a good compromise here, but it STILL should be a court ordered resolution. My ex once took the kids to the east coast without informing me (I found an empty house when I went to pick them up for the summer). Took lots of private invesgtigator money and time to find them, serve them and get them back to Calif to court. After all that I wound up with 7 days with my kids at the end of summer. Consider how difficult it would be to find someone and serve them in a foreign country on a sailboats itenirary, if that could be legally done at all. I would make sure, to the greatest degree possible, that once sent out, the kid was coming back at the appointed time. Other than that, having a several week experience in different parts of the world is an incredible opportunity...assuming that responsible and cooperative parenting is included. Dan Jonas (S/V Feije)
Walt has a good compromise here, but it STILL should be a court ordered resolution. My ex once took the kids to the east coast without informing me (I found an empty house when I went to pick them up for the summer). Took lots of private invesgtigator money and time to find them, serve them and get them back to Calif to court. After all that I wound up with 7 days with my kids at the end of summer. Consider how difficult it would be to find someone and serve them in a foreign country on a sailboats itenirary, if that could be legally done at all. I would make sure, to the greatest degree possible, that once sent out, the kid was coming back at the appointed time. Other than that, having a several week experience in different parts of the world is an incredible opportunity...assuming that responsible and cooperative parenting is included. Dan Jonas (S/V Feije)
Does Vanity Fair have a web site?
Paul: Maybe you should see if Vanity Fair or Better Housekeeping has a website so you could post this question. This would give you a more balanced set of opinions (too much testosterone here). Not you Debra! PS: Sonny says home!
Paul: Maybe you should see if Vanity Fair or Better Housekeeping has a website so you could post this question. This would give you a more balanced set of opinions (too much testosterone here). Not you Debra! PS: Sonny says home!
Two issues, one answer, NO
It seems to me there are two issues here. One, is it appropriate for your ex-wife to take your son for such a long period of time? I think the majority of responses answered that question. Two, is an O'Day 25 safe for such a trip? I think ABSOLUTELY NOT. The boat was built to be a DAY-SAILOR, and maybe a week or two COASTAL CRUISING and nothing more. It is definitely NOT safe for ocean passages. Please don't misunderstand me, I love my O'Day 27. It is a great boat and very safe for what it was built for, day sailing and coastal cruising. Good Luck. John
It seems to me there are two issues here. One, is it appropriate for your ex-wife to take your son for such a long period of time? I think the majority of responses answered that question. Two, is an O'Day 25 safe for such a trip? I think ABSOLUTELY NOT. The boat was built to be a DAY-SAILOR, and maybe a week or two COASTAL CRUISING and nothing more. It is definitely NOT safe for ocean passages. Please don't misunderstand me, I love my O'Day 27. It is a great boat and very safe for what it was built for, day sailing and coastal cruising. Good Luck. John
To Many Ex-wife Issues
Sounds like there are a lot of unresolved issues.... Aside from the suitability of the O'Day -- which I can't judge -- no one answered the questions that were asked. Everyone instead stuck their collective nose in where it was not invited. All I said was that plent of people have sailed around the world on what some of us consider small boats. That doesn't make them unsafe. Someone (a sailor or no) asked for some sailor information on off-shore work. Instead, in typical American style, we call for the lawyers. The man is not stupid, or he wouldn't be doing this kind of research. And come on, Steve, are you saying that no one should go off-shore with fewer than 4 crew? Most insurance companies only require 3. I'm sure an SC 52 came with all the goodies, GPS, Radar, -- did you have an SSB, or sat phone? -- but most of us can't afford the $500K a boat like that costs. Most people doing long-distance cruising are couples and single-handers. Standing watch is a drag....that's why windvane self-steering was developed.
Sounds like there are a lot of unresolved issues.... Aside from the suitability of the O'Day -- which I can't judge -- no one answered the questions that were asked. Everyone instead stuck their collective nose in where it was not invited. All I said was that plent of people have sailed around the world on what some of us consider small boats. That doesn't make them unsafe. Someone (a sailor or no) asked for some sailor information on off-shore work. Instead, in typical American style, we call for the lawyers. The man is not stupid, or he wouldn't be doing this kind of research. And come on, Steve, are you saying that no one should go off-shore with fewer than 4 crew? Most insurance companies only require 3. I'm sure an SC 52 came with all the goodies, GPS, Radar, -- did you have an SSB, or sat phone? -- but most of us can't afford the $500K a boat like that costs. Most people doing long-distance cruising are couples and single-handers. Standing watch is a drag....that's why windvane self-steering was developed.
Debra, but, but, but.....
They only have two to stand watch. And every boat that was in the Pacific Cup as in the Transpac are required to have a SSB radio to communicate with the shore and the rest of the fleet. They had daily check in for the race and the return. Don't under estimate the cost of a Santa Cruz 52' starting at a meer $750k plus the goodies. $40k for the carbon fiber mast upgrade alone. Makes the HC-50 look like a bargin huh! But these boat are designed for offshore work too. (not a O'25). And yes, I do believe that we answered much of his question. "Not much faith in a O'day 25' as an off shore boat." Just as most of the Hunter owners would not take their H'25's, 27's or 30's on such a passage. Of course it can be done, they have taken rafts and rowboats across the oceans. The real question here is it prudent to do it in such a boat? No. Is it prudent to risk the life of a 10 year old child? No. I hate the idea of attorney's (no offense to any attorneys out there). But in this case they are a necessary evil, and all of Paul's resources must be exercised to protect his son. There is absolutely no way to anticipate the weather in the Atlantic in late August (middle of huricane season). This boat is only going to make about 120 miles per day (on the best days). I do not even have a clue on the distance that they need to travel, but I assume that they will be at sea for 6-8 weeks. Not sure that they have enough room on board for provisions and water. BOTTOM LINE, get an ATTORNEY! and good luck Paul!
They only have two to stand watch. And every boat that was in the Pacific Cup as in the Transpac are required to have a SSB radio to communicate with the shore and the rest of the fleet. They had daily check in for the race and the return. Don't under estimate the cost of a Santa Cruz 52' starting at a meer $750k plus the goodies. $40k for the carbon fiber mast upgrade alone. Makes the HC-50 look like a bargin huh! But these boat are designed for offshore work too. (not a O'25). And yes, I do believe that we answered much of his question. "Not much faith in a O'day 25' as an off shore boat." Just as most of the Hunter owners would not take their H'25's, 27's or 30's on such a passage. Of course it can be done, they have taken rafts and rowboats across the oceans. The real question here is it prudent to do it in such a boat? No. Is it prudent to risk the life of a 10 year old child? No. I hate the idea of attorney's (no offense to any attorneys out there). But in this case they are a necessary evil, and all of Paul's resources must be exercised to protect his son. There is absolutely no way to anticipate the weather in the Atlantic in late August (middle of huricane season). This boat is only going to make about 120 miles per day (on the best days). I do not even have a clue on the distance that they need to travel, but I assume that they will be at sea for 6-8 weeks. Not sure that they have enough room on board for provisions and water. BOTTOM LINE, get an ATTORNEY! and good luck Paul!
If Anything Happens to your Son . .
Hi Paul: You'll end up as "Talking Points" on Bill O-Reilly's "The Factor" show just like that Yates guy did. . . . He failed to protect his children . . . This endeavor is too dangerous. You can't let this happen. Melody
Hi Paul: You'll end up as "Talking Points" on Bill O-Reilly's "The Factor" show just like that Yates guy did. . . . He failed to protect his children . . . This endeavor is too dangerous. You can't let this happen. Melody
What did O'day have to say?
I know they're out of business, but surely there are owner's manuals and/or old magazine ads around that describe this boat's intended use and capabilities. Maybe the O'day owners section of this site could help. Failing that, you could track down former O'day exec's who could speak to the issue.
I know they're out of business, but surely there are owner's manuals and/or old magazine ads around that describe this boat's intended use and capabilities. Maybe the O'day owners section of this site could help. Failing that, you could track down former O'day exec's who could speak to the issue.
It sounds unanimous
Don't let this happen. The boat, although not a piece of crap, was not intended for this use. There would have to be MAJOR upgrades to it. The crew should have some decent experience under their belts for this kind of endeavor as well. I say that only because they're now involving your kid. Here are some thoughts: If you end up ok'ing this journey, you should have a LONNNNNG lists of requirements such as them taking several approved sailing, navigating & medical courses; EPIRB (not that *I* would have one but it's your kid you're worried abouthere & he doesn't have much choice); NEW liferaft; SSB (with appropriate training); radar, GPS, VHF (the "basics"); appropriate correspondence courses for your son; I'm sure there's more but as you can see the list is growing and a 25' boat is only so big. But you should NOT let him go without these things aboard. This is his LIFE we're talking about. If it was just the ex & BF, let 'em go without any of it, but with the kid? No way! Walt's suggestion was good, or here's another: Let them make all the difficult passages and the fly the kid to visit. Quite honestly, this setup sounds ripe for failure. My bet is that they'd get offshore in their first storm, turn tail & head on home. BUT you can't count on that and you definitely don't want anything to happen to your son on the way. *Maybe* if they were on a sounder vessel... ??? I'm also going to have to agree with everyone else - get a lawyer and mediate this thing out. LaDonna
Don't let this happen. The boat, although not a piece of crap, was not intended for this use. There would have to be MAJOR upgrades to it. The crew should have some decent experience under their belts for this kind of endeavor as well. I say that only because they're now involving your kid. Here are some thoughts: If you end up ok'ing this journey, you should have a LONNNNNG lists of requirements such as them taking several approved sailing, navigating & medical courses; EPIRB (not that *I* would have one but it's your kid you're worried abouthere & he doesn't have much choice); NEW liferaft; SSB (with appropriate training); radar, GPS, VHF (the "basics"); appropriate correspondence courses for your son; I'm sure there's more but as you can see the list is growing and a 25' boat is only so big. But you should NOT let him go without these things aboard. This is his LIFE we're talking about. If it was just the ex & BF, let 'em go without any of it, but with the kid? No way! Walt's suggestion was good, or here's another: Let them make all the difficult passages and the fly the kid to visit. Quite honestly, this setup sounds ripe for failure. My bet is that they'd get offshore in their first storm, turn tail & head on home. BUT you can't count on that and you definitely don't want anything to happen to your son on the way. *Maybe* if they were on a sounder vessel... ??? I'm also going to have to agree with everyone else - get a lawyer and mediate this thing out. LaDonna
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