Across the Atlantic in a 25 footer?

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Dick Vance

Child Doesn't Have The Choice

IMHO, The venture is an unsafe one in such a craft. It has been done in smaller and even less suitable boats but it would be perilous at best. The other issue is that the adults get to make their own choices; risk their lives if they want to; but the child isn't old enough to appreciate the risks or make his own decision. Paul, I would oppose this venture with whatever means you have. Dick
 
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John Visser

Good book

"Desireable nad Undesireable Characteristics of Offshore Yachts," edited by John Rousmaniere available at Amazon.com Discusses most of the things you ask about. See link to amazon's listing below. Does not offer unsolicited lifestyle or legal advice. For that, try sailboatowners.com. Regards, jv
 
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Ray Bowles

Something's wrong here and it's not the trip!

It sounds like the wife has total custody. Otherwise how could she withdraw this child from your visitation rights? I doubt the courts would agree with this plan as the living relationship of the former wife and "Popeye" do not equate to good parenting or provide for the necesary needs of this child. As stated before seek legal advise, not questions and answers about sailboat safety on an otherwise fatal plan. Ray
 
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Don Evans

Paul, Here's an OD25 Owner's Opinion...

You have received some solid advice from others concerning the legal/moral issues concerning your son. I'll not comment further. The boat (stock) was never designed as an ocean cruiser. As pointed out by others it is a coastal, lake boat, meant to be sailed in relative protected waters. Thats not to say it cannot make some great journeys. I have yet to read about an OD25 that has crossed an ocean. IMHO some major considerations would be required. I'll touch on these in a bit, but I'd like to say that in most sailing disasters, it ususally is not the boat that failed the crew, but the opposite. You question the experience of the crew, and this is the most important concern I also have. What is their sailing pedigree? Has either been offshore? In a gale? Has either experienced seasickness? What are their navigational experiences? Can they fix just about anything, under any condition? Has anyone been up the mast in a bosuns chair under way? I don't know, you have not given enough details. Getting back to the boat, I can tell you that my crew of 3, for anything longer than a couple of nights aboard, are all craving more room. There is not enough space aboard the 25 to carry enough water/fuel/provisions/spare parts and personal gear. Most of the space is difficult to access (under bunks/berths/one lazerette) and all of this would be needed for water/fuel and food. Privacy aboard is an issue. People are sleeping within mere feet of each other.I would ask them how they plan to stand watch for the estimated month it would take to cross? Autopilots are possible but consume power. Self-steering windvanes can be mounted (maybe), but I have never seen one on the OD25. Other than the stock sailplan, they would require at least 2 other sailplans, including a heavy weather try-sail/head sail and a light air headsail (drifter or such). Again sail storage is an issue. The stock standing rig is 5/32", chainplates are bulkhead mounted, adequate for "normal" brisk weather but I'd question ocean capable. Jacklines must be installed, lifelines are singles, and should be beefed up with proper backing plates. Boarding waves in this boat's cockpit could be a problem. Although there is a bridge-deck, there is only a single 2" scupper to remove water. Assuming there is an outboard, I have 3 concerns. The inability to keep the prop buried in ocean swells, the potential to poop the outboard from stern waves, and the space needed to carry enough fuel. Hatch boards should be stronger, and at least the lower kept in place at all times. Another common problem aboard this model is the rudder. Many have been replaced. My original snapped off under very benign conditions. How would they deal with this in the middle of the Atlantic? I completely agree with the suggestion that your son meet them at predetermined destinations, as they progress in their journey. I might add another. Ship the boat across the pond. Have them begin there cruising there. This crew/boat needs to put some bluewater miles under their keel before beginning such a journey. I hope they reconsider there position, for your son's and their sake. Don
 
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Ron/KA5HZV

Forget

Forget the boat, the ocean and the month at sea. If I had an ex-wife she would not be taking my kid anywhere with her BOYFRIEND! In fact, if her BOYFRIEND were spending the night my kid would not be spending the night with them.....Ron/KA5HZV
 
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William Jowell

Grow up!

If you are stupid enough to allow something like this to happen to your son, then you deserve the results. Stupid to even post this message. "It" should never even proceeded to this point! The answer is, "NO!" "NO!"
 
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Tim Schaaf

I'll vote with Debra......

Seems like there is a LOT of venting going on. OK, I am single, childless, grew up in lots of countries other than the US.went to lots of different schools and school systems but did fine in college.., did quite a bit of adventuring and normally singlehand, so maybe my point of view is skewed...and I don't want to give anyone high blood pressure....BUT: It seems to me that whether a 25 foot boat is big enough has a lot to do with how "over-equipped" it might be. For example, if they are willing to sail...maybe fuel and the outboard are not such big issues. If they have an EPIRB, do they really need that SSB? Many of these things are recent developments. I think that Robin Graham (a hero to most of us, perhaps) did most of his circumnavigation in a Cal 25 (!), Tania had her Contess 26, some friends are in Samoa on a Dana 24, another couple cruises extensively in a Columbia 26, and a Californian family of 5 (including mother-in-law) circumnavigated in an under 30 foot Cal, a 28, I think. So, size and space are what you make of it. Seaworthiness can be augmented with some modifications. The crew? A REALLY important question. I think Walt had it right. And, I think it fair to ask the couple to make the Atlantic crossing as a test, before the son goes along. But if they manage that.......? Well known John Neal, of Mahina fame, originally sailed all around the Pacific on a 28 foot Vega, and he taught himself Celestial navigation from a book along the way, AFTER he left. School? Don't underestimate the positive life experience of this adventure, and at a perfect age. Privacy? Sounds cramped to me, but I won't judge the needs of others. Lawyers, custody issues, boyfriends? None of my business, nor of my expertise! BY THE WAY, has anybody asked the kid? If he wants to go, maybe he has a great relationship with mom and boyfriend, and maybe he has an adventuring heart. Most of us have been inspired in our sailing by doing things that we have not, or would not, do....but SOMEONE has to be out there, expanding our collective envelopes. If they go, I wish them much luck and happiness.
 
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mg

tim if i recall correctly

grahm lost his mast in a storm on the first boat and he completely redid to boat. and he finished his trip in a seawind32(what does that tell you)because the 25 became totally unseaworthy, the contessa, vega and dana are noted blue water boats. the cal 28 well you got me on that one. point is most of us would want a boat with design characteristics which would make the voyage safer from the get go . by the way you would think differently if it was your kid and you didnt agree with the ex. no there isnt that much venting here just reality , by the way if it was dad taking the kid out for 5 years what would exwife be doing?....... i rest my point.
 
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wb

paul I wouldnt let him go "BUTT"

this may not be appropiate and im sorry for that but why is it when parents split they try and turn their kids against the other?and where is his kids when HIS girlfriend is over?why get an attourny and make things worse if you are communicating already,as it sounds from youre question that you are that she is asking for your oppinion as well as permission.i guess my point is too many adults get lawyers involved over stupid issues that if they cant sit down and work it out like adults i have to question whether either of them needs the kids to begin with because lawyers and fighting only hurt the kids in the end.yes im the product of a messy divorce and remember the details like it was yesterday and i was only 8.please do what it takes to save your sons life and not let him go but dont ruin his respect for you and his mother in the process as im sure he loves you both and has a fond admiration for his moms boyfriend. goodluck and to all kids need nothing but love not to be raised with hate because someone cheated and thats the only way you can get even or fell better about. and again i appologize.............then again NO I DONT I FEEL BETTER>
 
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Ron

WB

Hopefully his kids are someplace else when his girlfriend is "Over."
 
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Tim Schaaf

calmer heads......

I should probably just drop this hot potato.......been a long time since I saw so many hackles raised. But, I found it interesting to re-read the original post and remember what was being asked.....and little of which was answered. Sounds to me like he there wasn't much conflict, until it came our way. But there were some very good questions asked of all of us here on HOW. Too bad we didn't answer. By the way, the latest Cruising World and Sail magazines contain some eye-opening revelations for those who feel that "more" is always "more". These micro-cruiser tales were, of course, written by people "out there, doing it". The boats include a "blue-water capable Cal 25". And I am trying to get some close friends, a family of six who sailed (with their large Lab) down the outside of the Baja last winter in their J24, to write THEIR story. Not my cup of tea, but they had a great time; then again, Dad has done the Whitbread on a winning boat, proof again that it is more the crew than the boat. 'Nuff said, and I will now shut up.
 
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Eric Lorgus

Crew experience more important than boat size

Paul, Robin Graham sailed around the world, single-handedly, in the late 60's. It took him at least 3 years, and he crossed the Pacific, the Southern Ocean, and the Atlantic in what I recall to be a 22 foot sailboat. He was 16 years old when he began the trip. Although he originally had an outboard, it never worked very well, and he eventually gave it away. He did upgrade to a slightly larger boat before leaving the Caribbean. I don't think he had a lot of fuel, certainly no GPS or EPIRB. He did have a self-steering vane. He was dismasted twice, which isn't something that just happens to small boats. In both cases, he set a jury rig and continued to sail on. Robin is famous because he was featured in at least three articles in National Geographic. He was raised in a sailing family, and had plenty of experience. Were I to pretend today to be his father then, and post a question as you did about the advisability of my 16 year old son sailing singlehanded from California to Hawaii in a 22 foot sailboat, with no outboard, can you imagine the responses? When Robin began his voyage around the world, I was about his age. I lived vicariously through him, and at the time, had no appreciation for how small his boat really was. I know that the tales of his adventures planted the seeds of my own interest in someday sailing around the world. You asked many questions, but I think the ones about the crew must be answered first, as the others may be moot if they are unprepared for such a journey. The skipper should have previous bluewater experience. Just as in flying, I think bluewater cruising is 90% judgment and 10% skill. If the crew is experienced and not naive, then out of self-preservation, they will be concerned with the same questions that you have asked about the boat and gear. They will have at least a GPS, a 406Mhz EPIRB, a life raft, and a self-steering vane. I have no opinion about the suitability of the O’Day 25, other than to observe that it doesn’t sound like your typical ocean cruiser. But others here have already mentioned many others who have crossed in similar-sized boats, as Robin Graham did. You asked about a shakedown trip before embarking on a trans-Atlantic passage. Good idea, especially for a boat that has just undergone an extensive re-fit. I’d recommend a passage long enough to reveal any shortcomings of the crew or the boat (at least three nights at sea). While many others here have expressed a prudent caution about such an ambitious trip, I think this would be an absolutely unforgettable adventure for your son. You are absolutely right to assess the advisability of their plans, but if indeed your former wife and her boyfriend are sufficiently experienced and have adequately oufitted their boat, then I would advise that it might be you who travels to meet your son along the way. In the end, this isn’t about custody or parental prerogatives, but about what’s best for your son. Eric Lorgus ELorgus@AOL.com
 
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Joel Burris

I would not take my O'day 25 accross the Atlantic

The O'day 25 was made to be a trailerable 25 foot sailboat. It is rigged so that the mast can be easily lowered and raised by two people. I would not trust the rigging for serious open water sailing. I have sailed in open blue water many times on large sea worthy boats, but never on my Oday 25. Even sailing the Block island sound and montauk area can be very tough in the 25. My boat and especially the rigging is not strong enought to survive the seas and weather that could arise in open water. I would not trust my O'day 25 in open blue water. In fact, I was once demasted just because one cotter pin pulled out of a clevis pin. The rigging on a realy seaworthy boat would have been much better and safer. Similar to the posting by someone earlier, as a child I too idealized Robin Lee Graham. In fact, I named my boat Dove after the name of Robin's boat. Nevertheless, I would bet that Robin's Dove was much more seaworthy then the O'day 25. I also know that his boat did not make the entire trip and National Geographic bougth him a new boat to finish the trip. The name of his boat was actually "Dove". Good luck.
 
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Joel Burris

The oday 25 is not a blue water boat

Let me be more specific. Although I enjoy my O'day 25 on nice days, I have been sailing for many years and in my opinion the o'day 25 is not seaworthy in rough seas. I would not trust the rigging, the ballast or the hull on a lake in a strong sea let alone in open water. In my opinion it would be CRAZY to attempt to cross the Atlantic in the boat.
 
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Jack

Paul,........ are you %$&#ing Nuts?

Your going to let your son go off for five years? I don't care if your ex had a 70 foot yacht!! Bad move.
 
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Pete

Paul ! let us know!

Paul, I'm sure a lot of other readers are interested also ! Let us know what (if anything) was decided and maybe you could give some more "depth" to the saga!
 
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Peter Brennan

Just say No

Just say No. If that doesn't work, then call the lawyers. The boat is not sufficient. Boy friend will be ex-boyfriend by the time they make bermuda.
 
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Mike Scott

Some more thoughts....

Let's say that the decision is to go forward with the round-the-world cruise: 1) I think they are going the wrong way for a first attempt. A Westward passage is usually easier (so I have read). 2) If they have not been at sea before, then it would be best to try it out on a mini cruise with other sailors, first. Such an opportunity would exist with the Caribbean 1500 cruising rally where cruisers sail in an organized group (see Web site below). 3) The boat should be checked out by experienced offshore cruisers. This is done prior to the Caribbean 1500 rally. Boat condition and safety equipment are checked. I'd suggest that the two adults participate in the Carribean 1500 rally, and if they pass muster, they are pointed in the right direction to sail West. (NOTE: The minimum size allowed in the Carribean 1500 rally is 34 ft. So that might be a hint about the O'Day 25 being an appropriate sized boat. Finally, Paul, I would buy a copy of World Cruising Routes to check out passages and wind & weather probabilities. Good Luck. Mike Scott - Windstar (C-30)
 
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