Obviously I don't know who was behind them coming up but it looks like at :44 they could have ducked those boats and come out on time further down the line and with speed.
A start gone ALL WRONG
- Thread starter Jackdaw
- Start date
Yea that’s most it. A full luff of both sails, and maybe a slight turn up. The idea is to burn time, let the line clear. You get a solid 2nd row start, at the spot you wanted at the boat. And if you want to take a quick hitch to get clear air, no one is to windward. If just luffing works to clear it’s better; it minimizes the distance to the line you burn.
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That can work as well but as you note you have to have a clean spot to turn, and the you have to reach under the entire line of 1st row starters, which costs time.
It also requires a very coordinated turn with a big ease from the main, and then the headsail. Boat will not turn otherwise.
@Tally Ho ,
Sorry, missed this. He stayed on the boat. Obviously Blue retired and took him to the hospital. Then a very ugly discussion about the employment status of professional sailors. Employees? Contractors? Insurance? Workman’s Comp? California boat in Mexican waters? Lawyer field day.
I agree with all the above and don't have disagreement with Blue's fault in the circumstance …. However! Take a close look at Camelot. This is what I see:
Camelot starts out to windward and in the clear ahead of Blue in the sequence and crosses over to the leeward side of Blue. So far so good …
At 0:41 seconds in the video, Camelot just comes into view from around the sail and they are making an aggressive turn to windward to avoid a leeward boat. They are barging because you can even detect that the leeward boat appears to take evasive action, just slightly. It looks questionable but to me it appears that the leeward boat makes a subtle swerve to avoid Camelot. I think that Camelot has now violated RRS 11 by failing to keep clear of the leeward boat.
At this point, Camelot now appears to be on a collision course with Blue. So Camelot can luff if they want and force Blue up, on this I agree. Also, Blue does not seem to react appropriately.
At 0:51 seconds Camelot turns down again - to the point where the collision appears to be avoided.
At 0:54 seconds Camelot suddenly swerves up again aggressively … starting a new collision course.
I couldn't tell if Camelot had to swerve again to avoid a leeward boat … if so, they were in danger of barging again.
By turning up, again, at 0:54 seconds wouldn't they be in violation of RRS 16.1? The leeward boat DOES have an obligation to provide warning and allow time for a windward boat to take evasive action if they intend to change their course and luff up. Clearly, there was no warning or time to avoid the collision after Camelot turned up for the 2nd time at 0:54 seconds. 5 seconds later, the collision is unavoidable and they hit at 1:00.
I go back to my opinion that Blue appeared to be on a legitimate course toward the boat end before Camelot attempted to force their way into a slot. I think that Blue might have been able to hold that course among all of the other leeward boats, but Camelot came into the picture and messed everything up. Tactician was communicating early on about the leeward boats and it seemed like he thought they could deal with them. Camelot came from outside the group that he was concerned about.
Also, if it is true that Camelot forced a leeward boat down and violated RRS 11, as I suggest happened at 0:41, and possibly again at 0:54, is it justifiable for them to cause havoc all around them by turning so erratically and finally luffing so aggressively toward Blue?
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Per 16.1 the leeward boat only needs to give "Room to keep clear". That doesn't include a warning, just that the Windward boat have the room they need to "maneuver promptly and in a seamanlike way" to meet their obligation to keep clear. You make an interesting point, since Blue was unable to turn to Windward at :54, despite their attempts spinning the wheel. I'd say that Camelot did give room for Blue to make a "seamanlike" turn up, but Blue failed to do that because they were overpowered and did not correct. Good point though and I do wonder if Blue could have or did argue that they were not given room to keep clear.
OK fun! Lets talk about this at 0:42 onwards.
First, you have to understand what barging means, and that at 0:42 all boats except Blue are below the layline and in a legit place to start. Only Blue is overstood and is barging. No one else is. That is KEY.
The up and down interactions between Camelot and the other boats is very typical at racing starts, and is not indicating barging at all. Ideal starting requires a gap/space to LEEWARD of your boat. It assures both clear air and room for slighly foot off to accellerate. So how do you do this? You luff up, and widen the leeward gap. If this pushes a boat up, they must react. As windward boat you assume that is what leeward will do. Thats why you often hear calls of UP! UP! all over the starting line in good fleets. Boats are trying both to make room, and make room for boats trying to make room. Its all part of a good start.
Now here comes Blue. Overstood and REACHING in, she's going 100mph and trying to stick her nose in at the exactly last second at the boat. VERY dangerous. The line is being pushed up, as the other starting boats continue to luff, both to make room, and also burn time. Blue runs out of both.
First, you have to understand what barging means, and that at 0:42 all boats except Blue are below the layline and in a legit place to start. Only Blue is overstood and is barging. No one else is. That is KEY.
The up and down interactions between Camelot and the other boats is very typical at racing starts, and is not indicating barging at all. Ideal starting requires a gap/space to LEEWARD of your boat. It assures both clear air and room for slighly foot off to accellerate. So how do you do this? You luff up, and widen the leeward gap. If this pushes a boat up, they must react. As windward boat you assume that is what leeward will do. Thats why you often hear calls of UP! UP! all over the starting line in good fleets. Boats are trying both to make room, and make room for boats trying to make room. Its all part of a good start.
Now here comes Blue. Overstood and REACHING in, she's going 100mph and trying to stick her nose in at the exactly last second at the boat. VERY dangerous. The line is being pushed up, as the other starting boats continue to luff, both to make room, and also burn time. Blue runs out of both.
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Good overall points. Re this one, no PC in the world would grant that argument at the starting line. At the start that really is your one job, to keep clear of leeward. You have to expect that the leeward boat can/will luff head to wind at any time, and leave room for that. Blue's problem is that they were REACHING in. At no point was she ever close-hauled. No way, room or time to turn up for a luff. Reckless and dangerous.
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BARGING. What is it exactly?
Well first, the term does not appear in the RRS. It is term used to describe boats that are ABOVE/windward the starting layline, meaning that they will need to reach into the starting area. Unlike boats sailing closehauled, they can be preventing from sailing into the start by leeward boats. Here is the picture.
All RED boats are below the layline and within limits can sail closehauled to the start line. BLUE (and any other boat up there) is above the layline and cannot start without reaching down because of the RC boat. At the start they are not entitled to mark-room. Camelot is the red/green boat. They are above close-hauled but OK, still below the layline and still on starboard. Blue must stay clear, and is screwed.
Ever see those Allstate Insurance TV ads features a guy called 'Mayhem'? That's this guy. Do this more than once at WYC and you can expect your fleet captain to come over at the party for a quiet chat.
Well first, the term does not appear in the RRS. It is term used to describe boats that are ABOVE/windward the starting layline, meaning that they will need to reach into the starting area. Unlike boats sailing closehauled, they can be preventing from sailing into the start by leeward boats. Here is the picture.
All RED boats are below the layline and within limits can sail closehauled to the start line. BLUE (and any other boat up there) is above the layline and cannot start without reaching down because of the RC boat. At the start they are not entitled to mark-room. Camelot is the red/green boat. They are above close-hauled but OK, still below the layline and still on starboard. Blue must stay clear, and is screwed.
Ever see those Allstate Insurance TV ads features a guy called 'Mayhem'? That's this guy. Do this more than once at WYC and you can expect your fleet captain to come over at the party for a quiet chat.
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That's a good diagram to show the congestion. But based on the video, it did not appear to me that Blue was over the lay line. It appeared to me that they were close-hauled right from the beginning of the video and had a lane to the start line. I absolutely understand how the lane could be closed by the leeward boats and I also recognize that Blue has to anticipate any moves upwind by any of those boats. They certainly didn't react appropriately.
But it did appear to me that there WAS room upwind of all of those red boats. The problem was with Camelot reaching down the line and then being forced to come up abruptly because of their own attempt to barge. I did read that "barging" is not a term in the rules. It seems to me that barging is simply an illegal action only when it forces a leeward boat to give way. I thought that at 0:42 it appeared to me that one of those red boats was forced to avoid Camelot and therefore Camelot was already causing an infraction.
I still feel a little sympathy for Blue, even though I agree that they were wrong. I think, if not for Camelot, whom caused their own share of the problems, they would have had a clean start without barging. I didn't think Blue was impacting the Red boats. I thought Blue was mostly caught off-guard by the erratic moves from Camelot … and I think Camelot was attempting to barge and possibly did cause an infraction on a Red boat BEFORE they turned upwind on Blue.
Actually, I think that Camelot was also screwed and it should have been apparent to them long before they crossed over Blue. Camelot is the boat that I think should be labeled "Mayhem".
But it did appear to me that there WAS room upwind of all of those red boats. The problem was with Camelot reaching down the line and then being forced to come up abruptly because of their own attempt to barge. I did read that "barging" is not a term in the rules. It seems to me that barging is simply an illegal action only when it forces a leeward boat to give way. I thought that at 0:42 it appeared to me that one of those red boats was forced to avoid Camelot and therefore Camelot was already causing an infraction.
I still feel a little sympathy for Blue, even though I agree that they were wrong. I think, if not for Camelot, whom caused their own share of the problems, they would have had a clean start without barging. I didn't think Blue was impacting the Red boats. I thought Blue was mostly caught off-guard by the erratic moves from Camelot … and I think Camelot was attempting to barge and possibly did cause an infraction on a Red boat BEFORE they turned upwind on Blue.
Actually, I think that Camelot was also screwed and it should have been apparent to them long before they crossed over Blue. Camelot is the boat that I think should be labeled "Mayhem".
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They were reaching. Relative to other boats, and their sails were eased. Look at their main.
After getting down, Camelot was below the lay line and reacting to the other boats. Blue did none of that until the last 5 seconds before impact.
Yes, I see the main eased a bit below centerline. I still think they would have been ok, except for Mayhem, er Camelot. It's hard for me to recognize the lay line in that video, particularly when the leeward boats were obviously coming up higher than a close-hauled heading at various places. I'm sure there were a lot of the outside influences mentioned earlier that led to some irrational thinking and actions by Blue.
I'm still hung up on the fact that Camelot came from so far windward, even relative to Blue at the beginning of the video. It seemed much more obvious to me that Camelot was barging and had no place to go, yet they tried anyway. If not for colliding with Blue, wasn't it obvious that Camelot also didn't have room?
Was there ever a hearing or published discussion by the race committee for this instance. I'd love to read the opinions.
I'm still hung up on the fact that Camelot came from so far windward, even relative to Blue at the beginning of the video. It seemed much more obvious to me that Camelot was barging and had no place to go, yet they tried anyway. If not for colliding with Blue, wasn't it obvious that Camelot also didn't have room?
Was there ever a hearing or published discussion by the race committee for this instance. I'd love to read the opinions.
Disagree. Camelot easily fit between the RC and the next leeward boat. That's all the room they need to concern themselves with. It's not their responsibility to make room for anyone else to fit in that gap too. The only caveat on that is that if someone else gets between them and the RC they can't "run them into the wall" (eg push them into the RC when they're stuck between the two). Camelot didn't do that, they just turned up. Blue didn't even seem especially close to the RC to me just before the impact - they still had room to move that way and failed to do so.
On that I agree. It seemed odd to me that Blue didn't attempt to head up until it was too late. I'm guessing she was more focused on the start time than on the other boats. If she headed up earlier, she probably was going to cross over early, but at least avoid the collision.
All I know is that I don't want to be that guy that barges! I was reading that some race committees try to get the pin end slightly favored just to avoid a jam-up at the stbd end. Also, I was reading that barging is a common problem with inexperienced racers that focus on getting clear air at the stbd end.
That's what I thought at first too. Then Jackdaw pointed out the driver spinning the wheel to starboard just before impact, while the boat just went straight. It was probably too late at that point even if the boat had reacted, but it made a bit more sense that she was at least trying.
I admit that when it's my turn to be RC for our local club I do set the pin end slightly favored. Much less "excitement" to not have a whole fleet pointed at my transom.
Do more starts Scott, and the actions of Camelot will start to look a lot more normal. That's the way most races start, and while I'd opine that they are not great racers or boat-handlers, they are working staying clear; their #1 job. It is not their job to watch out for boats reaching in at 9 knots looking to barge in at the boat!That's a good diagram to show the congestion. But based on the video, it did not appear to me that Blue was over the lay line. It appeared to me that they were close-hauled right from the beginning of the video and had a lane to the start line. I absolutely understand how the lane could be closed by the leeward boats and I also recognize that Blue has to anticipate any moves upwind by any of those boats. They certainly didn't react appropriately.
But it did appear to me that there WAS room upwind of all of those red boats. The problem was with Camelot reaching down the line and then being forced to come up abruptly because of their own attempt to barge. I did read that "barging" is not a term in the rules. It seems to me that barging is simply an illegal action only when it forces a leeward boat to give way. I thought that at 0:42 it appeared to me that one of those red boats was forced to avoid Camelot and therefore Camelot was already causing an infraction.
I still feel a little sympathy for Blue, even though I agree that they were wrong. I think, if not for Camelot, whom caused their own share of the problems, they would have had a clean start without barging. I didn't think Blue was impacting the Red boats. I thought Blue was mostly caught off-guard by the erratic moves from Camelot … and I think Camelot was attempting to barge and possibly did cause an infraction on a Red boat BEFORE they turned upwind on Blue.
Actually, I think that Camelot was also screwed and it should have been apparent to them long before they crossed over Blue. Camelot is the boat that I think should be labeled "Mayhem".
Blue actually had room, but not time. Had they stayed up they would have crossed cleanly, but have been OCS. That's why I suggested big ease of both sails earlier to burn time when they had the opportunity to do so.
You have to understand I've seen this type of situation a million times, both in person and on video. We record every race from the same spot with the same camera. To a certain degree you cannot trust the camera angles (its a distorted super-wide-angle view) but you have to look at the boats, their relative positions, and trim. Its very clear that Blue is reaching, and over-stood (the two kinda go together). The other boats are below the lay-line; Camelot is late to that party but makes it. Don't think so? its self-evident in the fact that she starts well below the boat. No way she does that if she's over-stood when she starts the dial-up with the other boats.
I think it is possible that Camelot took the Tactician completely by surprise. At the very beginning, he was looking to the port side and focused on those boats. He was also looking down a lot, I suppose it may have been a timer or some other start line app. Camelot came from the stbd side and then was behind the headsail out of his view for about 20 seconds. All of a sudden, Camelot came into view and he was probably unprepared for it. I never saw Tactician glance in that direction early in the sequence.
I know what it's like to not see a boat behind the genoa. But the driver should have seen Camelot crossing and should have been thinking about where she was at and what she was going to do. Driver had a clear view of Camelot crossing ahead early in the video and should have been focused on knowing where Camelot was even as Camelot was obscured by the sails.
I know what it's like to not see a boat behind the genoa. But the driver should have seen Camelot crossing and should have been thinking about where she was at and what she was going to do. Driver had a clear view of Camelot crossing ahead early in the video and should have been focused on knowing where Camelot was even as Camelot was obscured by the sails.