a small leak

[bobkay]

Late in the year, last year, I noticed the bilge pump was coming on about every 5 minutes and pumping about an inch of water out of the bilge. When the boat came out of the water for the winter, I could see water leaking out the joint between the hull and the bolted-on keel. All the water leaked out of the bilge. I cleaned out the joint and resealed that over the winter. When I put her back in the water in the spring, the bilge filled right back up and continued pumping an inch of water every five minutes. I assumed my "fix" had failed, maybe when they picked up the boat, the keel moved, breaking the seal.

This fall, when the boat came out of the water, I inspected my hull-keel seal. It looked intact. The water in the bilge didn't leak out this time. I poured more water into the bilge, still not leaking out.

So where was the water getting in? Is there a valve somewhere that could be leaking? Anybody have any ideas?
;o)
Bob K

 

[Rich (P303)]

That doesn't sound like a small leak to me!

You need to isolate it.

Close all seacocks and put the boat in the water. Wait and Look
Open all seacocks. Wait and Look
Start engine and motor around. Wait and Look

You should be able to follow a trail of water from source. If your bilge is just filling up from the bottom... has to be keel or keel attachment. Can't help you out on that... my keel is molded in hull.

You don't have one of those automatic bilge pumps that comes on every 5 minutes for a second do you?

I check my bilge when I go out to the boat, after I am underway, and before I leave.

 

[Ross]

Search everywhere below the waterline for posible entry then check inside for signs. I am surprised that you didn't deplete your batteries and sink.

 

[sailaway78]

Unless you have a very small bilge

Unless you have a very small bilge, the pump coming on every five minutes is very excessive. If you have a small bilge, it is just excessive. Did you do anything except caulk up the keel/hull joint, such as clean it out first, or torque the keel bolts. You obviously have a lot of water coming in from somewhere, and there are lots of places to look. Check ALL the thru hulls, torque the keel bolts, and make sure the joint is clean before you caulk it, and don't forget the shaft seal. You just have to use a process of elimination, but if you don't fix it, at that rate of leakage, if the batteries should die, it won't take too long for the boat to sink.

 

[Ian4781]

Bob I would bet that since you did have water drain at the hull/keel joint last year that you might well still have a problem there.You might want to lift the hull to take the weight off the keel to see if the water drains without the joint being under compression.You may need to loosen the keel bolts and clean the two surfaces then reseal the area....don't fully tighten the bolts until the sealant cures (just snug the keel to the hull)also check the bolts to ensure that they are in good condition and caulk around them as well.....good luck Ian

 

[BobM]

Sounds like you really need to bite the bullet and find out what is going on.

From what I have read, the number of keel bolts might be limited on the 302 (three one inch bolts? How many do you have?) and it has very large wings on its keel.

A broker (Carl Tripp at Trip's Marine in Westport, MA) I was working with wanted me to look at a 302, but it was both out of my price range and I had concerns about the keel after reading about problems somewhere on line. The broker, who was an O'Day dealer before they closed, assured me that, while there was a problem early on in production, it was fixed and repairs were offered under warranty. If your O'day isn't an 87 it likely isn't that original problem. I wish I could recall more details for you, but I can't. Carl might recall, and he is a very nice guy.

What did you reseal it with? 5200 isn't that flexible and some have come out against its use for the keel joint for that reason.

It is worth reading the following Mainesail post from the archives. It generated a lot of comments, but you should certainly make sure that a wet keel stub core isn't a problem. I don't know how much a moisture meter will help out, as it may be moist just from holding water. Perhaps Maine, or some O'day owners will chime in.

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/sailb...79-70s-80s-cheap-construction-techniques.html

 

[higgs]

Your leak is obviously not coming from a point lower than the level of the bilge water. You need to look at thru hulls above this level and also consider the possibility of rain water finding its way to the bilge.

 

[higgs]

Additional thoughts

Additional thoughts

Check sink drains for leaks
Check head intake hose and valve for leaks
Check water lines for leaks
Check water tanks for leaks
Check hot water heater if installed

 

[Ross]

Re: Additional thoughts

From here in Maryland I can't see where you have a leak. But for travel expenses and a couple of hundred per day A couple of friends and I can come there and do the looking for you.

 

[Hermit Scott]

If water is leaking in that fast how can you not see where it is coming in? Get your face down there with some bright lights and papertowels.
I had an unknown source leaking water into my bilge, I got down there and used paper towels to dry everything off. Then I used a flashlight to see if I could see anything.
At first it appeared to be the packing nut, but it was water leaking from further back in the boat. It was leaking from a wet dry vac in the cockpit storage bin.
You have to keep drying things off and running your hand over them to see if your hand gets wet.
An inch of water every 5 minutes has to be a couple of gallons per minute. I hope your boat is on the hard as you type this message, otherwise you won't have to worry about that pesky leak anymore.

 

[Jim]

All keel boat leak, or at least I think they do. That includes fancy keel bolts too. If you don't want to worry about keel bolts leaking, buy a boat without them. The question if the degree of the leak. The leak could be small enough so the bilge is dry.

Here is how I would test for the leak but, before I start you did check all the through hulls and the packing gland on the shaft, correct?

While the boat is in the water dray out the bilge. Use a towel to dry it out good. Then spray the bilge with foaming scrubbing bubbles and look for water run in the bubble foam. It should be easy to spot. You found you leak. Fix it is another issue. I think you'll have to drop the keel to do it right.

 

[Ross]

Jim, My boat doesn't leak!!!! Not from below the WL or from above the WL. If I spill water in the cabin within a week it dries up and the bilge is dry.

 

[Steve Christensen]

We had this same problem with our Ericson, and the fix is to have the keel dropped and re-bedded. Anything else you do is just a stop gap measure, as you can't properly seal this joint from the outside along the edge. As mentioned above, your keel-hull joint must be pulling open with the weight of the keel in the water, but closing down when the boat is on the hard and the joint is under compression.

With a little help from the yard this job isn't that hard to do yourself. After ours was done the bilge was dusty dry (except for rain water). Good luck!

Steve Christensen

 

[BobM]

Here is a good tip that might come in handy. It is hard to understand how such a rapid leak is so hard to find. Mark suspect areas with a dry wipe marker. The water wipes out the marker as it passes by. I have used this to good effect in the past.

Forgive me, but I am going to raise a few simple issues, just in case you haven't thought of them. I don't mean to be insulting.

Are you sure that you don't just have a leak in your bilge pump hose? That would explain why it cycles so often and why it is difficult to find the leak. Those ribbed bilge pump hoses split rather easily.

Also, if you bilge is very small, you might not be pushing the water overboard, it might fill up your hose, then drain right back into your bilge only to be pumped out when your automatic pump spins again (is it automatic or do you have a float switch?). Do you have a check valve to prevent this?

BobM

 

[Jim]

Are you 100% sure Ross?

Ross, have you had to drop the keel and re-caulk the keel bolts?

Do you have keel bolts? I though your boat didn't have keel bolts.

Also, does your packing gland drip? Because if it does that is technically a leak.

All boats leak. You may have prevent substantial water from coming into the boat, but there is a leak somewhere! Maybe into the core. Somewhere is a tiny bit of caulk failing somewhere on your boat. It is the second law of physic, all things decay. That includes caulk.

 

[Jim]

Steve, Ericson E-38, Quck Question

If you don't mind me asking, what was the order of magnitude or approximate cost for dropping and rebeding the keel? Did you do it yourself?

 

[TimCup]

Bobkay- your thinking isn't sound-

You know the keel joint leaked last year, because you observed it. When the boat was hauled, you saw the water running (seeping) out. Your patch now keeps water from leaking out of the bilge, but you still have water leaking in. The only way to duplicate the leak on the hard is to pressurize the bilge to see if the water leaks out, and I sure don't know a way to do that.

The advise you've gotten hear is sound, and in some cases VERY insightful ( weak pump, bad hose, etc.). On the hard you can manually activate the bilge pump and verify it's working. You can close the seacocks, and put it back in the water, and check for leaks, but that means your paying to have it hauled twice...

I've never tried it, but maybe you could take a gallon milk jug cut to fit the outside of the boat- caulk it over the thruhull, and pour dyed water into it, and see if it shows up in the bilge. Alot of work to verify you need to rebed the keel IMHO.

Good luck, and let us know what happens.


cup

 

[Ross]

Ross, have you had to drop the keel and re-caulk the keel bolts?

Do you have keel bolts? I though your boat didn't have keel bolts.

Also, does your packing gland drip? Because if it does that is technically a leak.

All boats leak. You may have prevent substantial water from coming into the boat, but there is a leak somewhere! Maybe into the core. Somewhere is a tiny bit of caulk failing somewhere on your boat. It is the second law of physic, all things decay. That includes caulk.

Jim , I have a PSS shaft seal, my ballast is built into an integral keel thus no keel bolts, My rudder post is enclosed to a point six inches above the water line and has a packing gland on top' My mast is deck stepped therefore no leak at the partners, My Lewmar windows are bedded in urethane/acrylic caulk which will out last you and me. MY BOAT DOESN'T LEAK!!!!

 

[Maine Sail]

Drop..

Drop the keel and re-bed it properly. Keels can leak from both the bilge side and the ocean side. By re-sealing only the ocean side you have inadvertently trapped stagnant water around the keel bolts. This will, if it has not already happened, lead to crevice corrosion of the keel bolts. If let go and ignored for long enough this can lead to bolt failure.

If your keel was leaking that badly, draining out through the bilge when you hauled, the worst thing you could do is seal only one side of it..

Crevice Corrosion:

 

[Jim]

Ok Ross how about

Your mast step, the life line stanchions, all the rest of the deck hardware, hand rail, anchor hardware, toe rail, canvas mounting hardware etc etc etc. This is all check and you are 100% sure nothing is leaking into the core? Maybe it doesn't leak into the cabin.

I didn't think you had keel bolts. I think the integrated ballast is a better design.