A look at Peak Sails for the C-22 (Pics)

DrJudyB · May 26, 2015

Considerations for choosing a sailmaker /sailloft

[*]Expertise of the Designer:

The sail is only as good as the person who designed it. Good software doesn't transform an inexperienced person into a competent sail designer. It takes training under a master to become a competent sail designer. It takes experience.

The designer determines the foil shape for the sail, and his/her skill and artistry are KEY to whether or not the sail performs as promised. A secondary task is to figure out how to turn the designed shape into panels to be cut, and how to minimize wasted material. Sails constructed of big panels waste less cloth and therefor keep the cost down, but they don’t always give you a sail that has a really well shaped airfoil (especially for small sails for small boats).

Key point to remember: Ask about the sail designer's apprenticeship and experience if you're interviewing a loft.

[*]Cloth Technology --> Stretch Resistance --> Price of the Sail:

Not all dacrons are the same. They are woven differently, depending on what the textile engineer is trying to achieve with the cloth.

Low stretch cloth generally costs more than stretchy cloth. The cost difference is due to how the cloth is woven, not how much it weighs. If you compare two different 7 oz cloths, one may be significantly less stretchy than the other, and it will cost more.

The weave and style of the dacron is the single biggest influence on the total cost of the sail.

Low stretch dacron makes your boat heel less, point better, and be easier to steer and trim. That’s important to both cruisers and racers.The rule of thumb is that you will pay more for cloth that holds its shape better under load and that keeps a like new shape longer.

Key point to remember: Different styles of weaves stretch less than others. The less the style of weave stretches, the better your boat will sail. Styles that stretch less push the price of the sail up significantly, more than changing weights.

Key point to remember: Once you've chosen the cloth style based on your price vs stretch/performance preferences, your sail maker will tell you what weight is the right one for the wind range in which you sail.

[*]Grade A or Grade B cloth from name brand cloth manufacturers, vs "generic" cloth:

You can’t build a good sail out of cloth that is unpredictable. The good sails are made of A grade cloth that meets or exceeds the engineering specification for that particular cloth.

Any material delivered to the Hyde loft is tested to ensure that it meets the stretch quality standard agreed with the supplier. Hyde uses an Instron tester for this. Hyde is one of a handful of sailmakers in the world with this equipment. (Grade B cloth is, unfortunately not taken off the market and destroyed. It is sold at a greatly reduced price to make “cheap sails”)

Key points to remember:
#1 Quality control starts when the cloth is delivered to the loft and tested to see that it meets specificatons..
#2 if one loft is offering the same cloth for 20%-40% lower price than any other reputable loft, be careful. If the price is too good to be true, it should be a warning flag (assuming that all things are equal, such as self service vs having a sailmaker staff person come out to measreu the boat)

[*]Construction Specification

When you buy sails, you have to trust your sailmaker’s experience and training to advise you. A good sailmaker doesn’t sell you what you ask for – s/he sells you the sails you’ll need to “get the job done” The sail maker knows better than you what the important details are. You supply info: on: How big is your boat? What conditions will you be sailing in? Will you be sailing near-shore? Will you need to ride out a storm offshore? Do you need sails for day-sailing less than 100-200 miles per year? Or sails for 1,000 miles per year? Are you going to sail 50,000 miles around the world? After you answer questions like this, the sailmaker will know things like how many layers of patches your sail needs, what size thread to use, how many rows of stitching are needed, size of the hardware to use etc. These Items are not optional upgrades.

Key point: If the salesperson is offering to throw-in an “upgrade” to induce you to buy the sail within 4 days, you should ask why it wasn’t included in the specification to start! Beware of a salesman who tries to sell you a pile of upgrades that you don’t need, at a discount. It’s trying to sell you truck tires for a Prius. Enough said.

Judy B
Hyde Sails Direct

DrJudyB · May 26, 2015

The Industrialization of Sailmaking

The Big Production Lofts:

Starting about 15 years ago, sail making became industrialized. Today there are 6 (or 7) “large” production lofts in the world: Hyde in the Philippines, North in Sri Lanka, China Sail Factory in China (used to be owned/operated by NeilPryde), Quantum owns/controls Durtek in Sri Lanka ( used to be owned/controlled by Dimension Polyant), Rolly Tasker in Thailand, Ullman controls a production loft in S. Africa (used to be controlled by Quantum), Doyle has a production loft in Barbados but I know very little about who ownes or operates it. [On edit: SVQuest pointed out that Doyle has production lofts in Salem MA and St Pete FL.]

Competitive Advantages of Big Lofts:

The bigger lofts are more efficient and more cost effective than small lofts, due to economies of scale. If a loft can plan ahead and buy sail cloth by the cargo container full, and keep it in stock, the cost of materials is substantially lower. All the big lofts have a materials planning department whose job it is to predict the inventory needed to keep a sail factory operating efficiently. In contrast, small local sailmakers buy sailcloth in “just enough for one sail” quantities at a higher cost per yard and higher delivery costs.

Local “BigBrand” franchise lofts.

Nowadays, the NameBrand local lofts are a hybrid operation. During the busy season, they are busy repairing and selling sails. The NameBrand local lofts operate on a franchise model: NameBrand franchise lofts have access to the design technology and manufacturing expertise of the NameBrand, as well as the buying power of the NameBrand. They employ skilled craftspeople who can do expert repairs. Local sailmakers will and can go out on your boat and look at your sail with their own eye. They have the experience evaluate the cut and shape of the sail. Often, the skilled craftsmen earn their keep during the slow season by building sails from scratch and assembling the panels for big membrane sails locally – because that’s the most cost-effective way to get a big sail shipped without folding it – ship it in pieces. If an owner is paying $20,000 for a load path membrane sail, they sure as heck don’t want any folds in it! Shipping a fully assembled racing sail with a foot longer than 7.5 feet is VERY expensive.

The local sailmaker will meet you at your boat, take a look at your sails, see how your boat sails and build you a sail. They’ll send an assistant out to measure your boat. The expertise and service local sailmakers offer is invaluable to the boat owner, and they charge for their time. Their time is money.

Resellers who don’t hide that they’re resellers:

There are a number of reputable resellers. They realized that they could sell high quality sails without owning a production loft. Some of them are very honest about being resellers. For example, Island Planet is an online loft run by a talented and quality minded sail maker. The owner doesn’t hide the fact that his sails are produced at China Sail Factory. He will tell you that China Sail Factory can build a very high quality sail and he’s telling you’re the truth. Island Planet has experienced and talented designers, they understand how to build a sail to meet the customers requirements (structural specification is appropriate) and they use only first quality sailcloth, not seconds.

Small-scale local sailmakers.

There are also local sailmakers who still order in the cloth for each sail and who design and build the sail from start to finish, but that’s not the majority of sail makers or resellers these day. Some of them are extremely well respected. A few who come to mind are folks like Gus Sails, Water Sails, Elliot Pattison, PineApple Sails – all highly respected sailmakers and who are accomplished racers themselves. The list of talents and accomplished sailmakers is by no means limited to the few whose names I mentioned.

Judy B
Hyde Sails Direct

PS.I’m not talking about production of “load path membranes” sails in this article, because that’s a separate technology & manufacturing process with a different list of leaders in the industry.

hawk232 · May 26, 2015

I didn't perceive that as the intent at all Luke. I took it as someone in the industry simply stating that there is a reason some sails are 600 and some are 1200, then taking it a step further and actually educating us on WHY some sails are 600 and some are 1200! I also did not get the impression that she was saying your sails would fall apart, just that they might lose their shape a little sooner. I also took the mention of SBO to be nothing more than a reminder that we all learn a lot here... FOR FREE and that purchasing through the site when possible helps to keep the site possible.

Its just another one of those decisions that everyone has to make on their own. Can you sail your boat to the point where you would be able to tell the difference in the precision (and potential durability) of the 1200 sail vs the 600??? If not, go for the cheaper one! Choices, its what makes America so great!!

I appreciate the education Judy B

svquest · May 26, 2015

I'm also in the business (sort of), as I consult with a loft on the Gulf Coast that does 100% in house construction that distinguishes itself with the design of the sails and the quality of the parts going into it. Having said that I'd like to offer a few points from the other side of the coin from Judy B

Doyle has 4 primary production lofts in the world. (I used to own a Doyle sales & service loft). The one in Barbados would be comparable to the OEM sails you can buy from China Sail Factory reps such as FX, Precision, etc... There are two in the US, the one in Marblehead makes sails for most of the lofts in the NE and the St. Pete loft for most of the rest of the U.S. That loft used to make the sails for SBO east of the rockies (I don't know if they still do or not). Their loadpath sails are made in NZ.

The quality of the cloth and service are the big differences between most of the resell lofts and the local manufactures. In a recent Catalina 22 National Championship measurement, a local building loft had their sails measure in at 27 square feet more than a large offshore production lofts sails. Now that boat didn't win (largely being new to the boat), but they didn't have to measure their boat, install their sails and the sailmaker was willing to go sailing with them to help them understand how to trim their design.

I do know that you can get the same cloth we use from the reseller lofts, however you have to contact them and they do charge more as the cloth is more expensive.

You can get good sails from most every loft, but also remember there are other advantages that the some lofts may be able to offer you that makes it very hard to compare dollars to dollars for what you get.

Leeward Rail · May 26, 2015

I agree hawk232.

Luke, I don't see that as JudyB's intent.
the comment about buying from SBO was just a simple reminder IMO, nothing more.

Personally, I value threads like this. It's how I learn from others, which I see as the whole point of forums. The risk with text communications is misunderstandings, unfortunately, and emoticons don't cut it all the time.

If I lived near you guys I'd love to come see Luke's sail in person, and sit with a few beers and discuss buying sails with the rest of the people in the thread. In the end some of us may disagree, but we would still walk away having learned a bit more.

That said, I never intended my defence of foreign based manufacturing to be anything other than pointing out some things that the average person isn't usually aware of.
Heck, it took me lot of searching to find that old YM article so people could read the facts for themselves instead of me just throwing an opinion out there.

Luke, don't you leave under any circustances. I value every post you make.

Bring on the info JudyB

edit: and svquest

Leeward Rail · May 26, 2015

Judy B and svquest... is there an online resource that details different sailcloth ?
So many sail listings and quotes talk about cloth weight but not how tight the weave is or anything else. I've tried to find a good place to be able to easily compare them but haven't found it. I've had to hunt down the info, and it's hard to find. My cynical side thinks that the info is almost intentionally made confusing and hard to find.

EDIT:
Like you said JudyB it's almost impossible for the average sailor to navigate the maze.

I just ordered a new mainsail. I've spent 2 weeks getting estimates/quotes from various places and trying to compare them. In the end I somewhat gave up the fight and simply ordered with a company in Canada (where I live) that evidently designs their sails, but has them built at one of a few of the large production sail lofts. They look like they have good product but time will tell.

DrJudyB · May 26, 2015

Leeward Rail said:
Judy B and svquest... is there an online resource that details different sailcloth ?
So many sail listings and quotes talk about cloth weight but not how tight the weave is or anything else. I've tried to find a good place to be able to easily compare them but haven't found it. I've had to hunt down the info, and it's hard to find. My cynical side thinks that the info is almost intentionally made confusing and hard to find.

Hi Luke, [on edit: This is in reply to Roy/LeewardRail, not Luke]

Textile engineering IS confusing. If you have a elementary understanding of engineering and materials you can teach yourself quite a bit. It ain't rocket science, more like undergraduate M.E.

It's complicated only because the devils in the details. And the confusion of trade marked pseudo-scientific terms that every sailcloth manufacturer uses to describe and differential their cloth from their competitors..

What you really need to know is the practical stuff, and a knowledgeable sailmaker can compare and contrast the sail cloths in your price range for you. Sailmakers are your trusted guide to buying sails. Assuming they paid their dues and learned either by experience or from a mentor.

Now that I've warned you about the frustration you might encounter trying to figure out the arcane science of manufacturing load bearing membranes (ie sail cloth) , I'll tell you where to find data on sail cloth.

Google "Challenge cloth" and see what you can find. They have published the most data and its' available in many corners of the internet. They just remodeled their website, so a lot of the older technical date which was available to the public has gone missing.
If you use Challenge as an example, I probably have some test data for you. Challenge has indeed published their test data for many of the cloths that I can share with you.

Pick a couple of specific cloths you're interested in and I'll send you some copies of the data from my archives. Some of the newer data is proprietary and I don't have permission to release it to you. Some of the test data I have may be slightly dated, because they are constantly refining the manufacturing process to improve stability and hopefully reduce cost.

I was talking to Ben Bainbridge of Challenge Cloth today about a technical question I had about Code Zero laminates and designed wind range... and I asked him when he's gong to have new data sheets available to share with the public He promised to send me some new data sheets soon that I will post on my website. We just remodelled our website recently and we will have a page for sail cloth knowledge, but I haven't written the articles yet and organized the material.

Writing technical articles for the average non-technical sailor is hard to do, and I'm SUPER busy selling sails and advising customers this time of year. I don't expect to have the time to do anything that ambitious until August, when the sailmaking season slows down.

The materials principles are fairly simple:
What is the initial modulus of elongation at standard conditions A. under standard condition B?
What is the initial tear strength?
After the cloth has been flogged for 1 millions cycles in the lab, how much stretchier did it get?
How much reduced was the tensile rupture strength?
How much hysteresis occurred after a zillion stretch and release cycles (inability of the cloth to recover after a stretch and release cycle?

In cloth, resistance to stretch and recovery from stretch without permanent deformation is everything. We test elasticity in the warp, fill and bias directions of cloth used for cross cut sails.

Good luck. Send me an email and I'll send you a couple of examples of test data for specific cloths.

You can find my email address on my website hydesailsdirect.com

Judy B
PS sorry this is so disorganized. I don't have any time to write more carefully. So please excuse me if there are typos, cut and mangles, and outright errors. Just jump in an correct any obvious errors. errors of technical vocabulary don't count. I wrote this article for free and you get what you pay for. The info is free and so are the mistakes

Leeward Rail · May 26, 2015

Thanks JudyB ! Since I've already ordered my mainsail, I'll read anything else you post here, and store it for future use. I'll likely take you up on your offer later in the summer once I have time to sit down and absorb it better.

This type of info should really be in a sticky thread.

BTW I'm not Luke... I'm Roy.

Luke is CloudDiver, who expressed concern about how the thread was going and actually started this thread.

Stu Jackson · May 26, 2015

Sail material

WADR, fellas and gals, Judy's right: this ain't rocket science.

Gonna fit out a Volvo 965.789 for a round the world speed race? Ya damn well better know this stuff.

Buying sails for a Catalina 22? Really? C'mon, dontcha think ya might be over-thinking this a tad, just a tad?

Even for our C34, I wouldn't go to these extremes of reinventing the wheel.

The reason is simple: In most of the real world, one works with what is available in the marketplace that has been tried and trusted for a few years, rather than being the guinea-pig for brand new stuff.

Been that way in the construction industry for the 45 years I've been a part of it, and is true in most other things in life, too.

Want a new washing machine? Find one that has been proven, time & again, to WORK.

Wanna do your clothes by hand? Find the brand newest piece of stuff from Dr. Elmo's laboratory, plug it in, watch the sparks fly, and then have at it.

If you want to do some basic research on sail material, Judy gave you some good pointers. It's not anything that Google or wikipedia wouldn't do for you out of the box for starters, followed by Judy's generous offer for more information.

Good luck, happy sail hunting.

jmczzz · May 27, 2015

svquest said:
...Doyle has 4 primary production lofts in the world. (I used to own a Doyle sales & service loft). The one in Barbados would be comparable to the OEM sails you can buy from China Sail Factory reps such as FX, Precision, etc... .

I am not disputing anything anyone has said on this thread. I simply point out that it is really hard to sort out the info when contradictions pop up. I was impressed with Precision Sails because they indicate they make their sails in their own sail loft. There are even pictures of the "sail loft and floor" on their web site. http://www.precisionsailloft.com/sail-loft-and-floor/
This is a Canadian company, not a US company, but at least it is on the same continent.
I am one of those "older people" that still believes we should "buy American". But now I am afraid I may have not done so after all. I feel like there is no way to buy a sail on the inet except take a shot in the dark and hope you get lucky. This forum is the place we should be able to get facts not opinion, bias or plain B. S.
I admire Luke for putting his sail purchase out there for all to poke sticks at. Like his other resto work and documentation he is way out front and not afraid to make it visible to us all. I hope the regulars that have gained so much from him and this forum will keep our common interest in mind.
Why can't this discussion stay about actual C22 owner / sailors helping each other sort out the good from the bad? I appreciate Judy B for her injection of industry knowledge. Information from the sail industry "insiders" does have value if it is factual and not hype. However keep in mind there may be some bias inadvertently included. (Not a jab at any contributor)
I hope I didn't get screwed in my recent sail purchase. It was a big hit for my pocket book.
Trouble is (like Luke) I don't feel so good about it now.
James

Gene Neill · May 27, 2015

Stu Jackson said:
WADR, fellas and gals, Judy's right: this ain't rocket science.

Gonna fit out a Volvo 965.789 for a round the world speed race? Ya damn well better know this stuff.

Buying sails for a Catalina 22? Really? C'mon, dontcha think ya might be over-thinking this a tad, just a tad?

Zactly.

Thanks to DrJudyB for all that insight though! Going forward, some of that may help some of us in the future. And I agree there was no criticism in her post, either toward Cloud Diver or any industry competitor. Makes me feel good about Hyde Sails, honestly.

That said, I won't be in the market for sails any time soon, as I have a brand new set of Rolly Tasker sails - which are likely to last quite a while, given the number of days a year I'm able to go sailing. I'm happy with them. Any flaws they may have, I'm ignorant of ... and pretty sure I'll stay that way. LOL

Luke ... congrats on the new canvas, buddy! Looks nice to me!! I'll bet a case Jim Beam you get years of enjoyment and satisfaction out of them.

Kestle · May 27, 2015

Thanks Judy. I appreciate your doing the posts.

For work, we have been having a very similar discussion. How do you discuss something, as a highly accomplished technician, with non-technicians? We can usually identify the non-technicians by their use of the declarative (binary statements of certain outcomes). I wish life was so simple. To use the Matrix analogy, most want the blue pill. But if you ask them, they say to give them the red one. Then, they regret asking and it is your fault as it didn't fit their paradigm.

So thank you for your posts, and your "bravery" in the face of innumeracy.

Looking forward to anything technical you may have to share - Jeff

spartacus99 · May 27, 2015

Judy, genuinely appreciate the info, feel free to keep it coming.

Luke, thanks for sharing your purchase. It helps brand spanking new folk, like myself, learn. Also, for a new guy, people like you and others who post in here make this fairly inaccessible hobby (yes it is ridiculously expensive and can go into astronomically expensive crazy fast) accessible, enjoyable, imbuing me with the confidence to go and accomplish things I could not afford to do if I employed others. A genuine and heartfelt thanks for helping to make sailing a reality for me.

No one should feel 'bad' about their sail purchase unless they hoist the sail and it tears in half the first time...or they got the one on sail because the original buyer put hello kitty faces on it and really liked pink until they returned the sail.... 1. There is the standard buyers remorse where you drop a not insignificant amount of money and then worry and look for every error you may have made, hoping for others to positively reinforce your decision. 2. Cars...coats...shoes. what? Hang on here.... I bought a pair of shoes for 60 bucks. I walk in them. I am not running or working out, I will not make the Boston marathon, I will not climb Mt everest in them. If I was going to do either I would spend the money to buy the technical shoes. I am not racing sailboats, I am not cruising the world right now. I have some really gross looking bags that work sort of like sails but haven't ripped yet. When I get ready to cross the Atlantic, yes I will invest in the sail that matches the endeavor. At the moment, even if I get new sails, because I am not sailing the world or racing, I will balance the economics and needs, thus going for a less expensive option.

Gosh this went long...sorry.

Lastly, can we sticky the sail info? Yay..done now!

Chief RA · May 27, 2015

With reference to Asian products: I have owned a 10' Chinese Maaxum inflatable dinghy for 12 years and it still works and looks great. It only cost $800 with high pressure floor and I do use a cover over it in sun as it is PVC. Great boat! Chief

hawk232 · May 27, 2015

how is anyone getting a sales pitch out of that?

the way I see it: Luke mentions the good deal he got on his sails and how much cheaper they were than the competition. Judy simply tries to educate us all on WHY some sails are cheap and some are expensive. while she isn't drooling or complimenting over his sails, she never specifically said that anything was wrong with them either. she MAY have eluded to the fact that since they were cheaper, they may not be as good as more expensive sails... I am sure that Luke, with the knowledge he has, is MORE than aware of that!

since the response was in regards to the comment made about cheap sails vs those that "nickel and dime you", I do not think she is even hi jacking the thread

Isnt the point of this forum for us all to learn?

Luke- Please take no offense if I worded this wrong! I sail my boat no where near the "edge" and would probably make a similar decision myself.

DrJudyB · May 27, 2015

Sailcloth terminology

Ray/LeewardRail,
I posted these definitions for you. These are the basic physical properties of woven sailcloth that engineers strive to optimize. If we have actual data on the cloth, from a series of tests on the Instron tester, we can make comparisons of cloth stretch, return, resistance to flogging and resistance to UV.
JudyB

Properties of sailcloth, sail fabric and sail material taken into account by sailmakers

Modulus is the ability of a sail fabric to resist stretch. Laminates generally have higher modulus than wovens of the same material because the threads are pre-tensioned and lie straight inside the laminated film. Since sail fabric properties, especially stretch, are not isotropic, (that is, they vary with direction), fabric orientations are significant.

Fill is the orientation across the width of a sail fabric.
Warp is the orientation along the length of a sail fabric.
These terms come from the weavers' names for the two directions of thread in the loom.
Orientations at a significant angle to the warp and fill, especially 45°, are all called the bias.

Tenacity is the tensile stress at rupture of a being expressed in grams force per denier. Tenacity relates to the breaking strength of fibres, and should not be confused with modulus, which relates more directly with a fibre's ability to resist stretch.

Denier is the weight in grams of 9000 meters of a given yarn. A higher denier signifies a heavier fibre.

Flex Strength is the ability of a fibre to retain its strength after being folded back and forth. Flex strength is commonly expressed as loss in breaking strength after flutter testing.

Initial Modulus describes a material's inherent ability to resist stretch. Initial modulus is usually expressed as grams of load per unit of stretch for a certain amount of fibre weight. The higher the initial modulus, the less the fibre will stretch.

UV Resistance measures the effect of sunlight on cloth. UV resistance is usually expressed as the time it would take for a material exposed to sunlight to loose half of its breaking strength. All very different from the requirement for cloth and textiles for clothes and clothing purposes.

Source: http://www.boatingteam.co.uk/UK-sail-makers.html
NB: While these definitions are pretty good, please be aware that some of the other information on this webpage is materially incorrect. JudyB

Leeward Rail · May 27, 2015

Awesome Judy. That's the type of info I was looking for.

"High modulus" in reference to sailcloth now makes more sense

In addition, that link is interesting in what it does try to cover. Spectra, Kevlar, Dacron, Vectran etc

Some of this stuff I know from years ago, but much has changed over the years.

Stu:
The desire for this info is not over thinking IMO, but a way to decide to try what is pertinent to your intended use, and within your budget
It's the pursuit of hitting that sweet spot of your own personal value for your dollar.

For some, it's sails that last as long as possible. For some it's maximum performance. For others, it's just the cheapest they can buy without falling apart in 3 years.

Some online loft tries to sell you sails that are overkill for YOUR intended use, for whatever boat your have, and you'll want have enough knowledge to understand what they are talking about.

The level of info desired depends on the person. Some, like me, are nerds. They care about the details. Others just want some sails to make their boat move. Some care about where the sails are made due to a desire to support local businesses. In all cases they need information to make an informed choice, cutting through all the buzzwords and jargon.

With the C22 commonly being used as an entry level keelboat, that need for info is even more acute IMO.

My defense of asian assembled sails was never intended to veer this thread into the technical intricacies of sail making. But Judy's posts are something I'd never turn down.
Again... as the little robot said... Mooore Inpuuuut.

Cheers all,
Roy

DrJudyB · May 27, 2015

Hi Roy,

Don't read too much into the names because they are chosen by the marketing people, not the engineers. For example, "High Modulus" is a medium level of performance (shape stability and shape retentions). MarbleHead has just a tiny bit more initial shape stability, but has better long term shape stability.

"Well the first lesson have you learned, Padawan. For Lesson Two the time is now. Study alone you can."

http://www.challengesailcloth.com/crimp

http://www.challengesailcloth.com/warp-fill-bias

http://www.challengesailcloth.com/crosscut-tri-radial

DrJudyB · May 28, 2015

Good info or TMI? Please tell me.

The cloth is the heart and soul of your sails.

Is anybody interested in having me write an over view of how each cloth gets it's basic physical properties and cost?

WARNING: I am proposing that we get really geeky and nerdy. Maybe we should move this to a separate thread so we don't annoy the non-nerds for whom this is TMI

I'll try to avoid making it too technical, but I can't talk about engineered cloth without getting a little technical

For lesson #3, with Ray's permission, we could use his new mainsai for an over view of how to under stand which cloth does what when you order a new sail. (Ray, could we use your new mainsail as an example? Which sail cloth are you getting your new mainsail made of? )

Let's analyse that cloth, and compare and contrast it with the other choices you had. We can go through all the stuff a sailmaker has to know about the cloth to make a recommendation to you.

Topic outline:

The Sailor's Needs and Wants VS Sailor's Budget:

Sailors' preference for expense vs performance vs durability
Sailors' style of sailing, (eg race vs cruise, set-and-forget cruiser vs string-pulling-trimming cruiser)
Budget
Miles/hours sailed per year,
Climate,
Wind range and
Sea state range.
Hull characteristics and
Sail inventory recommendations
Budget
Customers desire for involvement from the sailmaker and why?
... OH! Did I mention budget yet?

Technical Factors for the Sailmaker to Consider:

The geometry of the sail and loading patterns for that type of sail.
Crimp and Denier of the thread in the fill vs warp directions
Number of mechanical interlockings (tightly woven fine threads vs large diameter threads weaves)
Data on initial resistance to stretch (initial modulus) Initial Modulus of the fill vs warp vs bias
Data on how well the cloth resists stretch as the cloth ages (Modulus after a flutter test),
Resistance to UV
Resistance to tearing (tenacity).
From Theory to Practical experience: Empirical, experiential feedback from boat owners over the lift of the sail (very, very important !)

We could get really Geeky, (like MaineSail does with his excellent articles) and take a look at a couple of different cloths under the my digital microscope and take some pictures. The geeks at home can follow along using their own sails and a 5x - 10X magnifying glass, or a high resolution digital camera.

I could literally dissect a couple of different cloth samples and look at the all-important things like crimp (stretchiness) and denier (UV resistance) in each direction.

Would that be good info or TMI? Would you tell me, please?