A look at Peak Sails for the C-22 (Pics)

[hawk232]

I would be interested in hearing about it. I do think that for that level of discussion a new topic should be started. That would be off topic from Luke's post, not to mention all of this good info deserves a thread of its own that would be easier to search for and locate.

 

[T_Cat]

I'd like to hear it!

 

[Leeward Rail]

Judy:

At this point I haven't chosen which specific sailcloth and other details.

Once measurements are done I'll be talking to the designer to make those decisions.

I'm wondering if it might be better for the people following this thread, that we keep it on somewhat on topic and compare the cloth used for the 3 standard mainsail options that the sail manufacture he used, have listed on their site, for Catalina 22 mainsails

Coastal Cruise: Challenge Performance Cruise 6.18 oz. Dacron
Bluewater Cruise: Challenge High-Modulus 5.93 oz. Dacron
Tri Radial Performance: Challenge Warp Drive 6.11 oz. Dacron

 

[DrJudyB]

Sailmaker's Chat.

Judy:

At this point I haven't chosen which specific sailcloth and other details.

Once measurements are done I'll be talking to the designer to make those decisions.

I'm wondering if it might be better for the people following this thread, that we keep it on somewhat on topic and compare the cloth used for the 3 standard mainsail options that Peak Sails lists on their site.

Coastal Cruise: Challenge Performance Cruise 6.18 oz. Dacron
Bluewater Cruise: Challenge High-Modulus 5.93 oz. Dacron
Tri Radial Performance: Challenge Warp Drive 6.11 oz. Dacron

That's a very good suggestion, Ray. Very practical. We'll use you as our hypothetical customer, to illustrate the steps of the process.

Yes, let's use those three cloths, because they're very representative of the choices out there. I'd like to add Marblehead to the cloths as well, since that's also a very widely offered dacron, and maybe a charter cruise cloth too.

However, due to ethical, professional and legal considerations, I will refrain from commenting about any other sailmaker's specification explicitly.

As an alternative, I will use Hyde Sails' specifications as examples. I will do my best to explain the history and development that lead to Hyde's Touring, Voyager and OffShore specifications. I happen to think they're good specs and I have been selling them for a long time. Sorry, but it would be an real conflict of interest for me to explain why a compeitors loft uses a different spec than I do.

As long as I fully disclose that I am a Hyde Sails Direct online retailer, I think that should be okay. That's the best I can do under the circumstances. I will state it at the beginning and end of each post. Every reader must judge for himself/herself how biased I am.

I'll start another thread, and request a moderator to move the relevant posts over there, so I don't have to cut and paste all of the important stuff.

Any more ideas. folks?

 

[Leeward Rail]

I hope I didn't get screwed in my recent sail purchase. It was a big hit for my pocket book.
Trouble is (like Luke) I don't feel so good about it now.
James

I don't see anything in Luke's post implying he is feeling bad about his purchase from (Edited by Admin). He got what he wanted at a price he liked. (except for the logo. lol)


In regards to Precision Sail in Victoria BC
I too ordered from Precision, and after discussing my needs with them, I'm not worried at this point.
They design the sails in house, using the actual measurements of your rig.
If you can't supply the measurements, they base the design on a stock rig for that boat.
While my boat is likely stock, I'm measuring myself, based on their big measurement form, just to be sure.
That's works fine for me.
Even if I wanted to, there is no loft near me that I can pay to measure the boat.

Precision will then have one of a few large production lofts make my sail to their specs.

I figure that type of place is a good compromise for what I want in a sail.
The price is good, but not alarmingly low, which might otherwise cause concern.

Will it be everything I hope ? Time will tell. Rest assured I'll post photos

 

[Leeward Rail]

We'll use you as our hypothetical customer, to illustrate the steps of the process. .......
I will do my best to explain the history the history and rational behind Hyde's Touring, Voyager and OffShore specifications. I happen to think they're good specs and I have been selling them for a long time, so to use anybody else's specifications wouldn't make sense to me.

Sounds good to me.

If you want to use them, here's a guideline to what my basic purchasing factors are:

1987 Catalina 22. Mainsail required.
Current rig is stock, except for a roller furling headsail.
Boat will be trailered exclusively, and won't be sitting in a marina all the time.
Usage: Cruising. On everything from small lakes to huge lakes, with the occasional, once a year, trip on the BC coast. Both daysail and multiple overnights.
2 Reefs.
2+2 battens
Loose foot

 

[Sanfelice]

More info on sail cloth. Mack Sails is loft in Forida which has a good reputation. THe following link is pretty goodin explaining sail cloth types.
http://macksails.com/sailclth.htm

I have used them in the past but have no vested interest.

 

[w4swk]

All this talk of new sails makes me lean more toward my idea of sewing my own. I realize that just "purchasing" sails from someplace would probably cheaper after factoring in the labor, but I am retired and have all the time in the world. Aside from that, I like to BUILD stuff...it challenges my mind and builds my skills.

I have restored 2 full size airplanes, one which was (I still have it) all fabric. The restoration process included sewing dacron panels and covering the plane with them. How hard can a little "sail" be to sew?

Ken

 

[Leeward Rail]

All this talk of new sails makes me lean more toward my idea of sewing my own. I realize that just "purchasing" sails from someplace would probably cheaper after factoring in the labor, but I am retired and have all the time in the world. Aside from that, I like to BUILD stuff...it challenges my mind and builds my skills.

I have restored 2 full size airplanes, one which was (I still have it) all fabric. The restoration process included sewing dacron panels and covering the plane with them. How hard can a little "sail" be to sew?

Ken

From what I have read it's not that big of a deal if you get a Sailrite kit. The biggest thing is having a sewing machine that can handle the task.

That said, I'm not sure if a kit would have the higher end features of some sails.
FWIW: It's easy to get a quote from Sailrite.
I was quoted $505 with international shipping, for "Catalina 22 main kit, 5.4oz SC Dacron, crosscut, two reefs, standard battens, leechline, boltrope on luff and foot, slugs on luff"

Does anyone else make sail kits ?

Being a man who is annoyed that he can't sew, while every sailor back in the day could, I'm going to give it a try. But in my case, it will be winch, boom, tiller, hatch cover, and modifying an off the shelf boat cover to handle stanchions.
After that... we'll see.

 

[DrJudyB]

Step one in buying new sails: Define the Need

Judy:

At this point I haven't chosen which specific sailcloth and other details.

Once measurements are done I'll be talking to the designer to make those decisions.

I'm wondering if it might be better for the people following this thread, that we keep it on somewhat on topic and compare the cloth used for the 3 standard mainsail options that Peak Sails lists on their site. Edit: For Catalina 22 mainsails

Coastal Cruise: Challenge Performance Cruise 6.18 oz. Dacron
Bluewater Cruise: Challenge High-Modulus 5.93 oz. Dacron
Tri Radial Performance: Challenge Warp Drive 6.11 oz. Dacron

WHAT TO TELL YOUR SAILMAKER ABOUT YOUR SAILING SKILLS, YOUR BOAT, AND WHAT YOU'RE GOING TO DO WITH YOUR MAINSAIL.

Yesterday, I interviewed Ray about his sailing resume and what he planned to do with his new sails.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Sailing Resume:
He has been sailing since his teens.He started with dinghies, advanced to beach cats, and took formal sailing lessons and earned his certification to charter for big boats several years ago. He has chartered big boats, and has a healthy respect for the limitation of his Catalina 22. In my opinion, he has a realistic expectation of what is possible with a Catalina 22..

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Technical level:
He knows how to use all the sail trimming tools and enjoys shaping his sails for optimal performance in various conditions. He adjusts luff tension with cunningham or halyard to round or flatten the draft and move it fore and aft. He uses the outhaul to change the depth of the draft at the bottom of the mainsail. He uses vang and mainsheet to open and close the upper leech of the mainsail. He uses the traveller and mainsheet to change the angle of attack of the sail. He knows the importance of balancing sail trim and controlling heel so the helm is balanced and the boat is flat and fast. (Although he confessing to indulging in buying the leeward rail just for kicks )
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Profile/Style:

He fits the definition of a performance cruiser: When he sails, he likes to sail as well as he can, but not working at it as fast and hard as a racer. He uses all the same techniques as a racer, but doesn't work as hard or fast as a racer. I'd call him a "casual-racer" type.

He shapes the sails differently in weak vs strong winds, steady vs gusty winds, flat water vs choppy water. Even as a cruiser, he takes pleasure in getting his boat to perform as well as he can possibly make it do. Sometimes he likes to relax and so he sets his for a "wide groove" so he can stop adjusting the shape of his sails.

In short, he does a lot with his sails, and wouldn't be happy with a sail that isn't responsive to the adjustments he makes with the trim controls. He's definitely a sailor who want a responsive mainsail that will hold its shape and respond well to trim.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Intended use and cruising grounds:

Ray will be using the boat on large inland lakes as well as near show coastal sailing. While he might get caught by an occassional squall, he won't be heading off shore where he might get caught in gales for hours on end. He hs experience handline a boat in high winds up to 30 knots gust. He knows how to handle a boat in up to 35+ knots, but isn't foolhardy. He knows that is NOT going to be fun sailing a Catalina 22 such conditions.35 kntos. In conditions like that, he expects to run for cover near shore.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Designed wind range: up to 35 knots steady, with higher gusts.

In other words, the sails have to be built to handle a few hours of high winds on occasion without permanently deforming.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Desired Service Life:

In terms of total hours of usage per year, I don't know what he told me.... so I'm just going to pretend that he said it would be at least 75 days a year, because he and his wife sail together for fun and frequent trailer-sailor adventures and vacations. Ray takes care to maintain his equipment and plans o sail this boat for many, many years. If he needs a bigger boat for vacations, he plans to hire a big charter boat.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The next two posts will cover the following topics.

1) Technical requirements for the sail:
An overview of loading patterns on a Catalina 22 mainsail.

2) Finally: How well do these available sails meet Ray's requirements?

-a cross-cut mainsail made from Challenge Peformance Cruise Dacron, vs
-a cross-cut mainsail made of Challenge High Modulus Dacron, vs
-a tri-radial mainsail made of Challenge Warp Drive Dacron

 

[DrJudyB]

How to Buy Cruising Sails Online

HI All,

Sorry for the delay following up on my promise to write advice on how to buy sail, but I've been busy.

Here is my latest advice on how to buy sails online.

Judy
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

[azguy]

Seriouslly, these are C22's, do people really consult a sailmaker and go to these lengths for something that has been made by every sailmaker for 30+ years.

I bought a Rolly Tasker main over a year ago, full batten, with no issues...

 

[Leeward Rail]

Seriouslly, these are C22's, do people really consult a sailmaker and go to these lengths for something that has been made by every sailmaker for 30+ years.

I bought a Rolly Tasker main over a year ago, full batten, with no issues...

Your comment sounds very similar to: "I'm not a racer I don't need fancy sails"

Think of it this way.. If you own a Chevrolet Cavalier and have limited funds, do you just take it to any old automotive shop and have work done ?

You don't unless you have money to burn or don't have a clue about how cars work and thereby don't know the difference between cheap crap workmanship or quality inexpensive workmanship. It's a case of "pennywise pound foolish"

After all, the Cavalier was sold for years, with more or less the same drivetrains. Every mechanic must do a good job fixing them right ?
Hint: If you think they do.. then I've got some nice cars to sell you.

Personally...
I'd rather have the basic sailmaking knowledge so that I don't get ripped off by a so called "loft" passing counterfeit cloth off as the real thing.
I'd also like to get something better than the same fixed foot, undersized design that Catalina put on the boats in the 70's.
I'd love to spend a bit more money, and get longer sail life.
I'd VERY much hate to send my money to an online "loft" and never receive a sail at all.

Why wouldn't I want to get the best value for my money ?
How would I do that if I was ignorant of the issues involved ?

Cheers,
Roy

FWIW: Judy's post may be in the Catalina 22 forum, but it's about buying sails online in general. The C22 attracts a lot of rookie sailors. The more they learn the better they will be, if or when they buy a bigger boat.

 

[jmczzz]

Well said Capt Roy,
It is not whether or not to get "fancy" or "plain" sails. It is to know what you are getting is the best for your purpose and money.
James

 

[CaptDon01]

Azguy hit it right on mark.... Now, for the serious racers, sail design is a whole other game, and they are dealing with mylar and fancy cloths, stuff I sure don't need. For the rest of us C-22 sailors, a lot boils down to dealing with the local loft, (if you have one). My headsail was from a local loft, and mainly because their price was very competitive. When it came to a new main, I bought a upgraded full batten, loose footed main from Catalina Direct. They are very competitive in price, and best of all, they are here for us C-22 folks on just about everything we need, when we need it. They have also been supporting the C-22 Association for years also, and that's a huge shout-out for them! They scratch our backs, and I scratch theirs.....

By the way, it's been at least 3 years now, and their main is like new, and I'm not kind to my sails. LOVE IT!

Don

 

[Leeward Rail]

Azguy hit it right on mark.... Now, for the serious racers, sail design is a whole other game, and they are dealing with mylar and fancy cloths, stuff I sure don't need. For the rest of us C-22 sailors, a lot boils down to dealing with the local loft, (if you have one). My headsail was from a local loft, and mainly because their price was very competitive. When it came to a new main, I bought a upgraded full batten, loose footed main from Catalina Direct. They are very competitive in price, and best of all, they are here for us C-22 folks on just about everything we need, when we need it. They have also been supporting the C-22 Association for years also, and that's a huge shout-out for them! They scratch our backs, and I scratch theirs.....

By the way, it's been at least 3 years now, and their main is like new, and I'm not kind to my sails. LOVE IT!

Don

Don,

Maybe I'm seeing azguyy's post another way and he's maybe misinterpreting Judy's.

Azguy's post implies that the average guy who just wants a decent sail, can simply buy a C22 from ANYONE ONLINE and get the same thing.

In your case you bought from reputable suppliers and were happy with the results.
In your "buying a mainsail online" example, a reseller like CD does the work, making sure their supplier is supplying a product that won't damage CD's reputation.

An uneducated buyer could easily buy directly from someone they shouldn't trust.
Buying a sail from just any old supplier and hoping you get value for your money, is a crap shoot most people can't afford.

Knowing what you are buying and why goes a long way to protecting yourself. whether you are buying Dacron or string sails, a Cavalier or an M3, the original C22 rudder or one from ruddercraft.

I fail to see how knowing more, about anything, is a bad thing. Especially considering how the thread started.

 

[DrJudyB]

Azguy hit it right on mark.... Now, for the serious racers, sail design is a whole other game, and they are dealing with mylar and fancy cloths, stuff I sure don't need. For the rest of us C-22 sailors, a lot boils down to dealing with the local loft, (if you have one). My headsail was from a local loft, and mainly because their price was very competitive. When it came to a new main, I bought a upgraded full batten, loose footed main from Catalina Direct. They are very competitive in price, and best of all, they are here for us C-22 folks on just about everything we need, when we need it. They have also been supporting the C-22 Association for years also, and that's a huge shout-out for them! They scratch our backs, and I scratch theirs.....

By the way, it's been at least 3 years now, and their main is like new, and I'm not kind to my sails. LOVE IT!

Don

What Don said about how he bought his sails was exactly in line with my advice. Don bought his sails from a reputable online dealer and got a high quality sail that is still looking good after 3 years. He didn't buy the cheapest one he could find online. And he's still happy with it 3 years later.

My advice was to stick with reputable online sail dealers, (along with some advice on how to protect yourself from get ripped off by unscrupulous online sail dealer.)

There are reputable online lofts like Lee Sails, Rolly Tasker (Natonal Sails, The Sail Warehouse) and Ullman (Catalina Direct) and Doyle (this forum's online loft) and Hyde (Hyde Sails Direct)... and a few others. They all sell online.

They vary slightly in the quality of their sails and their market niche, but it's not hard to figure out, in general terms, if you use google....

... and if y'all read my forthcoming post on the different price points for dacron, you'll be able to figure out where their sails fit in
the 4-way matrix of

• price
• initial stretch and recovery (short term stretchiness),
• long-term shape-holding,
• durability,

... all based on the specific type of dacron you select.

Preview of the four broad catagories of dacrons:

• "Value" Line for crosscut sails. (aka entry level, budget, a little better than some OEM dacrons)
• Premium Lines for crosscut sails (High and Low Aspect version)
• Super Premium Line for crosscut sails (High and Low Aspect versions)
• Warp_Oriented Dacrons for Tri-radial sails (some with exotic fibers blended in)

Best wishes to all,
Judy

 

[CloudDiver]

I've been keeping quiet about this topic, mostly because I had no idea that the whole thing could end up blowing up in my face.

The story is not over just yet, but at the moment I am very unhappy with my sails from the company that cannot be mentioned. As great as they appeared to be from my first look-over, as it turns out they were not made from the Challenge warp Drive 6.11 cloth that I paid for.

I was a little bit irritated at first at how this thread changed from an initial positive product review into a debate; however I have to give Dr Judy credit and thanks. She pointed out to me that my sails did not look like the correct cloth. I called the Challenge Rep in Costa Mesa and they were happy to send me a swatch book of Challenge Warp Drive Sail cloth. Comparing the sample to my sails it was obvious to the naked eye, my sails were NOT Warp Drive 6.11

I'm left with a bad taste in my mouth, and it has been a nightmare working on the solution but it is in process. I hope that no one here has bought sails from the same company based on my original review. I have little confidence that they can be trusted.

 

[jmczzz]

Really sorry to hear you are having a problem with an old fashioned bait and switch scam.
James

 

[spartacus99]

2 cents..

Judy, thanks. As a new sailor I need information so that my knowledge is congruent or exceeds my experience. My long term goal is transoceanic cruising - like 10 years from now... and the difference in sail cloths, usage and shaping is invaluable to me now and will be so later. How do you Google this stuff or look for books when you don't even know what to look for? My buying experience with my current boat, falling apart as it is, simply tells me that I need to know more. Sorry- I added my 2 cents