Hello All, I need some serious advise. I do have a bunch of photo's of the boat in the water and being raised....I'll post them as an update shortly. Story: Bought a 1978 33ft Hunter Sailboat. Love it....she's my dream realized. Been doing work around the rigging, some engine cooling help, ect ect....and the bottom needs to be cleaned in a bad way. About 5-7months worth of growth. Long stringy stuff....barnacles...and even some small oysters.. The company that scrapped the bottom hit the transducer for the knot/depth meter that sits under the port-side settee knocking it loose....and my entire vessel sank within 3-4 hrs. He SAYS when he left she looked fine (that was at 5pm or there abouts), at 9pm the harbormaster calls to say my boat is completely sunk and must be raised immediately. Two dive teams later (the original contractor was unable to raise...so called in backup) she is up, floating, and the transducer thing back in place. Here is the advise I need.... This is the 2nd! time this contractor has encountered this problem.....the 1st time they were able to establish that the mechanic that installed the knot meter did so incorrectly and his insurance covered the costs/repair/total (whatever happened) He is claiming that he is not at fault as "there is no way from underneath to knock those loose if they are installed correctly" When the dive team got into my boat, lifted the port-side settee lid, the transducer-plug-thing was floating (obviously cause it was knocked in) Who is at fault? The boat was fine...I've sailed it several times...and she's been A-ok. The DAY they clean it, THEY knock it loose...boat sinks. THEY say it's not their fault. Oh yea, and the kicker...I JUST bought it.....and haven't even registered/insured it yet. Do I have a leg to stand on here fello Captains? (our plan of action so far....engine is being 'pickled' to save it....we are gutting the entire cabin tonight/this weekend...and running a commercial-sized de-humidifier in the cabin for weeks to completely dry her out. Then...onto the electronics).
- Status
No Haul out??
Are you saying that you just bought this boat and did so without the benifit of a haul out and survey? And then hire a diver to scrape years of growth? When was this boat hauled out last? Were the zincs ever replaced? I am not sure that it is the fault of the diver. Sounds to me like the through hull had disolved due to electrolysis and didn't take much to knock it off. Had the through hull been in sound condition you would have to pound on it with a sledge hammer and that might not break it. I am truly sorry for the bad situation you are in, but I am not sure that you can blame someone else. As far as insurance, I doubt that any company would have underwritten the vessel without an out-of-water survey for obvous reasons.
Are you saying that you just bought this boat and did so without the benifit of a haul out and survey? And then hire a diver to scrape years of growth? When was this boat hauled out last? Were the zincs ever replaced? I am not sure that it is the fault of the diver. Sounds to me like the through hull had disolved due to electrolysis and didn't take much to knock it off. Had the through hull been in sound condition you would have to pound on it with a sledge hammer and that might not break it. I am truly sorry for the bad situation you are in, but I am not sure that you can blame someone else. As far as insurance, I doubt that any company would have underwritten the vessel without an out-of-water survey for obvous reasons.
PS
I have never heard of a boat bottom growing oysters in 5-7 months. The seller may not have been entirely forthright with how he or she represented the condition of the boat and it's maintinence history.
I have never heard of a boat bottom growing oysters in 5-7 months. The seller may not have been entirely forthright with how he or she represented the condition of the boat and it's maintinence history.
NO LAWYERS YET !!!!
Your boat should be valued at between $14,500 and $17,500 according to NADA Values. Given that, a lawyer could easily eat up 1/2 the value of the boat. First try talking to whoever installed the transducer the second time and see if you can convince them to take responsibility. I have to agree with the divers in that there is no way that they could have knocked a PROPERLY INSTALLED transducer loose while scraping unless they used sledge hammers and chisels. If you threaten to use a lawyer and they have insurance, you will have just created your own brick wall and you will NEED a lawyer for sure. Their insurance company will refuse to talk to you if you have an atty. At that point , only atty's will talk to each other at somewhere between $80 to $150 per hour and your 2 minute calls will be billed to you at 1/4 hour miniumums. A lawsuit for damages and costs in small claims court Is a second alternatine., however if you go into small claims court without an atty, you have a greater chance of losing. You are in a tough spot and i would recommend a gentle professional aproach at first. Continue on being more stern with each subsequent meeting, but never threaten. Threatening with an atty only pisses people off.If you feel that your only recourse is an atty. dont tell them, JUST DO IT. I would also suggest that on your next haul-out, that you remove transducer, properly fiberglass the hole permanently and get the transducers that "shoot through the hull" I sincerely wish you luck.
Your boat should be valued at between $14,500 and $17,500 according to NADA Values. Given that, a lawyer could easily eat up 1/2 the value of the boat. First try talking to whoever installed the transducer the second time and see if you can convince them to take responsibility. I have to agree with the divers in that there is no way that they could have knocked a PROPERLY INSTALLED transducer loose while scraping unless they used sledge hammers and chisels. If you threaten to use a lawyer and they have insurance, you will have just created your own brick wall and you will NEED a lawyer for sure. Their insurance company will refuse to talk to you if you have an atty. At that point , only atty's will talk to each other at somewhere between $80 to $150 per hour and your 2 minute calls will be billed to you at 1/4 hour miniumums. A lawsuit for damages and costs in small claims court Is a second alternatine., however if you go into small claims court without an atty, you have a greater chance of losing. You are in a tough spot and i would recommend a gentle professional aproach at first. Continue on being more stern with each subsequent meeting, but never threaten. Threatening with an atty only pisses people off.If you feel that your only recourse is an atty. dont tell them, JUST DO IT. I would also suggest that on your next haul-out, that you remove transducer, properly fiberglass the hole permanently and get the transducers that "shoot through the hull" I sincerely wish you luck.
insurance
Do you have insurance? If so, just file a claim and let them fight over who is at fault. Regardless, you get paid. If not, sorry but good luck... some lessons are learned the expensive way.
Do you have insurance? If so, just file a claim and let them fight over who is at fault. Regardless, you get paid. If not, sorry but good luck... some lessons are learned the expensive way.
More info....
Barnacles/oysters.... There was significant growth...but certainly not 'years'. Best guess from the diver was around 6months. I did not haul it out, as she 'appeared' in great shape other then normal wear/tear....and hire a professional survey/rigger to look it over and work on it. With a limited budget...I thought that applying the fee for a survey directly to repairs.......ah well, hind-sights is always 20.20 The transducer or 'plug thing' (I'll have pics up soon) was not deteriorate in anyway. When I talked to the former owner just now...he states that they (the contractors) should be aware that these are changeable, and therefore should always check for damage/leaks prior to leaving the job-site. All-in-all...I'm realizing that the transducer was in good shape...but not in "tight"....some agitation later and it pops in....sinking my boat. Contractor says "what me worry....you should have had it in tight" But, I still see some level of responsibility on their part....or is that just my ignorance?
Barnacles/oysters.... There was significant growth...but certainly not 'years'. Best guess from the diver was around 6months. I did not haul it out, as she 'appeared' in great shape other then normal wear/tear....and hire a professional survey/rigger to look it over and work on it. With a limited budget...I thought that applying the fee for a survey directly to repairs.......ah well, hind-sights is always 20.20 The transducer or 'plug thing' (I'll have pics up soon) was not deteriorate in anyway. When I talked to the former owner just now...he states that they (the contractors) should be aware that these are changeable, and therefore should always check for damage/leaks prior to leaving the job-site. All-in-all...I'm realizing that the transducer was in good shape...but not in "tight"....some agitation later and it pops in....sinking my boat. Contractor says "what me worry....you should have had it in tight" But, I still see some level of responsibility on their part....or is that just my ignorance?
Beg For Mercy
I dont think you have any recourse with anyone. I have to agree with the others in that the diver would not have been able to knock the transducer loose if it were in good condition and properly installed. Its too late now ... but in the future get insurance prior to taking possession of the boat. This will usually require a survey, depending on age and price. Sorry to hear about your misfortune
I dont think you have any recourse with anyone. I have to agree with the others in that the diver would not have been able to knock the transducer loose if it were in good condition and properly installed. Its too late now ... but in the future get insurance prior to taking possession of the boat. This will usually require a survey, depending on age and price. Sorry to hear about your misfortune
I hope you have insurance
It is going to be tought to proof fault. Defer this matter to your insurance. If you don't have boat insurance your homeowner might cover some of the costs.
It is going to be tought to proof fault. Defer this matter to your insurance. If you don't have boat insurance your homeowner might cover some of the costs.
You Believe the Previous Owner?
To make things less confusing, please refer to the parties involved as 'the transducer installer' or "the divers'. The use of the word 'contractor' can refer to anyone that gets paid to work on your boat. Anyway, the statement by the previous owner "...he states that they (the contractors) should be aware that these are changeable, and therefore should always check for damage/leaks prior to leaving the job-site." is a statement in theory only. Most people , including myself are usually not around when the diver is cleaning the bottom and i certainly dont give him the key to get into my boat. He just scrapes and sends me the bill. Most divers are usually busy and are not sure exactly what day they will get to doing your boat. The previous owner may think all was well, in all fairness to him, but obviously he was wrong. I still stand by my original statement in that if the transducer was properly installed, a diver scraping could not have knocked it loose. If he could, this would be a common occurance in every marina in the world in that most people hire divers at least twice a year and racers dive and scrape a lot more than that. Again, I'm sorry to hear about your problems, but not much can be done about it. When you get upset, think of the expression..FIDO (F**k It and Drive On), it may help.
To make things less confusing, please refer to the parties involved as 'the transducer installer' or "the divers'. The use of the word 'contractor' can refer to anyone that gets paid to work on your boat. Anyway, the statement by the previous owner "...he states that they (the contractors) should be aware that these are changeable, and therefore should always check for damage/leaks prior to leaving the job-site." is a statement in theory only. Most people , including myself are usually not around when the diver is cleaning the bottom and i certainly dont give him the key to get into my boat. He just scrapes and sends me the bill. Most divers are usually busy and are not sure exactly what day they will get to doing your boat. The previous owner may think all was well, in all fairness to him, but obviously he was wrong. I still stand by my original statement in that if the transducer was properly installed, a diver scraping could not have knocked it loose. If he could, this would be a common occurance in every marina in the world in that most people hire divers at least twice a year and racers dive and scrape a lot more than that. Again, I'm sorry to hear about your problems, but not much can be done about it. When you get upset, think of the expression..FIDO (F**k It and Drive On), it may help.
I haven't done much
underwater work but I know that I can't put my back into anything underwater like I can on dry ground. That said, I can't think of any way to knock a healthy fitting off the bottom of a boat by hand tools only if you rule out hammers. However, I think that the diver should have been aware that something was amiss when he bumped the transducer and it moved. He should then have made further checks and plugged the hole. What was the visibility in the water that day? That leak would have been sucking debris like muddy water in the kitchen sink when you pull the plug.
underwater work but I know that I can't put my back into anything underwater like I can on dry ground. That said, I can't think of any way to knock a healthy fitting off the bottom of a boat by hand tools only if you rule out hammers. However, I think that the diver should have been aware that something was amiss when he bumped the transducer and it moved. He should then have made further checks and plugged the hole. What was the visibility in the water that day? That leak would have been sucking debris like muddy water in the kitchen sink when you pull the plug.
Hire a surveyor now
Surveyors examine these things all the time to find out what happened. The report from a reputable professional surveyor will also go a long way to supprting your case as to who is at fault. Surveyors frequently testify in court as to this kind of stuff. If you were insured, your ins. company would likely pay for the surveyor.
Surveyors examine these things all the time to find out what happened. The report from a reputable professional surveyor will also go a long way to supprting your case as to who is at fault. Surveyors frequently testify in court as to this kind of stuff. If you were insured, your ins. company would likely pay for the surveyor.
He doesn't have insurance
He clearly said that. I don't think you can blame the diver. If the boat had bottom paint on it, then the only thing that's going to get "Long stringy stuff....barnacles...and even some small oysters.." on it in 5-7 months is metal objects like the shaft and prop. Sounds to me like the boat hadn'd been out of the water for a long long long time. Now, if your knot transducer is the sleave kind where you take it out when not in use and plug the hole with a screw on plug, then I would have to bet that's your problem. The last time you did that, you didn't put it (either the plug or the transducer) on right or the transducer sleave was badly worn and should have been replaced. Your just going to have to mark this up as a learning experience and bite the bullet. You bought a boat that was in bad shape and now you know why...or at least you should.
He clearly said that. I don't think you can blame the diver. If the boat had bottom paint on it, then the only thing that's going to get "Long stringy stuff....barnacles...and even some small oysters.." on it in 5-7 months is metal objects like the shaft and prop. Sounds to me like the boat hadn'd been out of the water for a long long long time. Now, if your knot transducer is the sleave kind where you take it out when not in use and plug the hole with a screw on plug, then I would have to bet that's your problem. The last time you did that, you didn't put it (either the plug or the transducer) on right or the transducer sleave was badly worn and should have been replaced. Your just going to have to mark this up as a learning experience and bite the bullet. You bought a boat that was in bad shape and now you know why...or at least you should.
The Survey says...
Was the boat surveyed? Use your reent survey as cannon fodder to determine what may have happened.
Was the boat surveyed? Use your reent survey as cannon fodder to determine what may have happened.
Sorry to Hear of This
And it sounds pretty scary, that's for sure. Never thought about it before, but I will now. After reading the responses, I have to agree with Franklin and Ross. It is VERY difficult to apply a lot of pressure when cleaning a boat in the water (as a diver). I know the pro's have equipment to help that, and suction cups to get some leverage, so it's possible, but I tend to believe the diver's story. Then I read what Franklin said and thought about my boat. If the threads on the screw fitting on the knotmeter on my boat (my transducer doesn't work the same way) were loose, and someone went to scraping on the outside of the hull, it could very easily cause my boat to leak. I don't think I'd be able to blame the diver for that either. I'm curious, was your transducer the type that can be removed from the inside?
And it sounds pretty scary, that's for sure. Never thought about it before, but I will now. After reading the responses, I have to agree with Franklin and Ross. It is VERY difficult to apply a lot of pressure when cleaning a boat in the water (as a diver). I know the pro's have equipment to help that, and suction cups to get some leverage, so it's possible, but I tend to believe the diver's story. Then I read what Franklin said and thought about my boat. If the threads on the screw fitting on the knotmeter on my boat (my transducer doesn't work the same way) were loose, and someone went to scraping on the outside of the hull, it could very easily cause my boat to leak. I don't think I'd be able to blame the diver for that either. I'm curious, was your transducer the type that can be removed from the inside?
Final Update - Origional Poster
Hello All, I would like to thank everyone for their comments (even the smart arse ones). Everyone was correct...I jumped in without a net (survey and insurance). She was/is a beautiful 33 foot hunter that I purchased in a 'distress sales' (divorce) for 5k. Yep....it was a deal....so it seemed. Moving forward, please join me in my new topic... "restoring my 33ft hunter that sank"
Tonight we 'gut' the interior, tomorrow I 'pickle' the yanmar diesel and am filtering out all the fuel (each of these being done by professionals). Moving to a new marina (kicked outta gulfport) Sunday....and then beginning the journey of brining her back to life.... Fair winds, Neil
Hello All, I would like to thank everyone for their comments (even the smart arse ones). Everyone was correct...I jumped in without a net (survey and insurance). She was/is a beautiful 33 foot hunter that I purchased in a 'distress sales' (divorce) for 5k. Yep....it was a deal....so it seemed. Moving forward, please join me in my new topic... "restoring my 33ft hunter that sank"
Tonight we 'gut' the interior, tomorrow I 'pickle' the yanmar diesel and am filtering out all the fuel (each of these being done by professionals). Moving to a new marina (kicked outta gulfport) Sunday....and then beginning the journey of brining her back to life.... Fair winds, NeilTo answer Herb's question on the 'type'
Hi Herb, Yes, very scary...and I reccomend that everyone learn from this! The knot meter was under the port side settee, and was the 'screw-on type'. Kinda like a screw on jar lid. The threads for the knotmeter were on the inside so it went over the top and screwed down to secure. The former owner 'warned me' (so he said today!) about them being easy to knock loose or what not. Even said one time when he had it scraped the same_exact thing happened, but he happened to be there and plug it back in. It has a replacement 'plug' so you can changeout the knotmeter sensor one when in port. Go figure....mine was loose....I'm a new captain...and now restoring my 1st boat.
Hi Herb, Yes, very scary...and I reccomend that everyone learn from this! The knot meter was under the port side settee, and was the 'screw-on type'. Kinda like a screw on jar lid. The threads for the knotmeter were on the inside so it went over the top and screwed down to secure. The former owner 'warned me' (so he said today!) about them being easy to knock loose or what not. Even said one time when he had it scraped the same_exact thing happened, but he happened to be there and plug it back in. It has a replacement 'plug' so you can changeout the knotmeter sensor one when in port. Go figure....mine was loose....I'm a new captain...and now restoring my 1st boat.
I agree with the majority here
But take a good look at the transducer where it was exposed, a partialy cleaned surface would indicate that it was knocked loose during scraping. I would document the work and labor involved in the clean up, and start digging in to clean it, remove as much wet stuff as you can then take the stuff home and clean it up with fresh water. The best way I have found for drying SOAKED cushions/carpets/etc is to sqish them out,(place between two sheets of plywood and drive over them works for sqishable things) then place them in one of the contractor type plastic trash bags, and stick the hose of a heavy duty wet/dry vac in tape the opening around the hose and turn on the vacuum, holding the bag so the opening is on the bottom, then sit on the bag and let the vacuum pull the water out. When I got my boat it was filled to the top of the vberth with rain and snowmelt, cushions took everything I had to wrestle them out of the boat and drop them into my truck, took them home and hosed them out had them sitting in the garage on racks to dry, and after two weeks they were still just as heavy so I vacuum bagged them and they were dry the next day, took the covers off, cleaned the cushions and threw the covers in the washer (shortly after that I figured out it's not a good idea to throw the covers in the dryer) Getting all the wet stuff possible out of the boat will let the dehumidifiers work much more efficiently, in many cases eliminate the need for them altogether. Also, as Bob says, get rid of the through hull. I know they are actually fairly safe, but personally I still don't like holes in the hull, and am currently working on eliminating as many as I can. Ken.
But take a good look at the transducer where it was exposed, a partialy cleaned surface would indicate that it was knocked loose during scraping. I would document the work and labor involved in the clean up, and start digging in to clean it, remove as much wet stuff as you can then take the stuff home and clean it up with fresh water. The best way I have found for drying SOAKED cushions/carpets/etc is to sqish them out,(place between two sheets of plywood and drive over them works for sqishable things) then place them in one of the contractor type plastic trash bags, and stick the hose of a heavy duty wet/dry vac in tape the opening around the hose and turn on the vacuum, holding the bag so the opening is on the bottom, then sit on the bag and let the vacuum pull the water out. When I got my boat it was filled to the top of the vberth with rain and snowmelt, cushions took everything I had to wrestle them out of the boat and drop them into my truck, took them home and hosed them out had them sitting in the garage on racks to dry, and after two weeks they were still just as heavy so I vacuum bagged them and they were dry the next day, took the covers off, cleaned the cushions and threw the covers in the washer (shortly after that I figured out it's not a good idea to throw the covers in the dryer) Getting all the wet stuff possible out of the boat will let the dehumidifiers work much more efficiently, in many cases eliminate the need for them altogether. Also, as Bob says, get rid of the through hull. I know they are actually fairly safe, but personally I still don't like holes in the hull, and am currently working on eliminating as many as I can. Ken.
Thru hull locking rings
As to the boat having alot of growth, I just did the bottom on my 8.7 in July, and it already has a healthy growth of slime, though no long stringy grass or oysters. As to the transducer, I also have the removable type, with a locking ring on the interior of the boat. Its damn near impossible to remove the locking ring even when you want to, and I really do question whether scraping the bottom of the boat would push the plug out, unless the ring wasn't locked in the first place. I tend to agree with others that this is a situation of live and learn, and hopefully the out of pocket expense for drying out the cabin won't break the bank. I don't carry hull insurance on my boats either, but if they sink at the dock, they will only take on a foot or two of water at most, since the area is only 6 feet a low tide, and 7 at high. The boats have 5 foot drafts. So while it would be a pain in the arse, it wouldn't be a crisis. Hope all comes out well for you, and you're able to enjoy your new boat for a long time to come.
As to the boat having alot of growth, I just did the bottom on my 8.7 in July, and it already has a healthy growth of slime, though no long stringy grass or oysters. As to the transducer, I also have the removable type, with a locking ring on the interior of the boat. Its damn near impossible to remove the locking ring even when you want to, and I really do question whether scraping the bottom of the boat would push the plug out, unless the ring wasn't locked in the first place. I tend to agree with others that this is a situation of live and learn, and hopefully the out of pocket expense for drying out the cabin won't break the bank. I don't carry hull insurance on my boats either, but if they sink at the dock, they will only take on a foot or two of water at most, since the area is only 6 feet a low tide, and 7 at high. The boats have 5 foot drafts. So while it would be a pain in the arse, it wouldn't be a crisis. Hope all comes out well for you, and you're able to enjoy your new boat for a long time to come.
my 1 cent cause I'm not worth more
Knotmeter first The tools. What tools did the diver use? A kitchen spatula (flexible, not to sturdy) or a chisel (SHARP, strong shaft) makes a difference. A sharp tool would "slice" off the piece and that would show on the unit as damage. You need that for evidence. Most units are two part, one fixed to the hull and the other screws into it (the part with the impeller). How you could "bump" the impeller, which does stick out and have it pop from the secondary piece is odd. The depth finder. That transducer is also fitted to the hulland a good swipe with the wrong tool and that sucker is history. It wouldnot be easily replaceable. So if your popped off unit was easily replaced, then yoiu really need to look at the evidence. That said, the divers were at fault, in my opinion. Sue them. ANy good diver knows exactly what he is doing, and exactly when something is amiss. He isn't a drunk, or a hired bum, but a company. You hired divers, not clarinet players or pizza makers. Divers should know their job and what goes with that, and be aware of every nuance of their job. The last thing is to verify that nothing was amiss before they left. And this was the SECOND time for them to sink a boat? Duh!!!
Knotmeter first The tools. What tools did the diver use? A kitchen spatula (flexible, not to sturdy) or a chisel (SHARP, strong shaft) makes a difference. A sharp tool would "slice" off the piece and that would show on the unit as damage. You need that for evidence. Most units are two part, one fixed to the hull and the other screws into it (the part with the impeller). How you could "bump" the impeller, which does stick out and have it pop from the secondary piece is odd. The depth finder. That transducer is also fitted to the hulland a good swipe with the wrong tool and that sucker is history. It wouldnot be easily replaceable. So if your popped off unit was easily replaced, then yoiu really need to look at the evidence. That said, the divers were at fault, in my opinion. Sue them. ANy good diver knows exactly what he is doing, and exactly when something is amiss. He isn't a drunk, or a hired bum, but a company. You hired divers, not clarinet players or pizza makers. Divers should know their job and what goes with that, and be aware of every nuance of their job. The last thing is to verify that nothing was amiss before they left. And this was the SECOND time for them to sink a boat? Duh!!!
if its not in your name its not yours.
Check to see it the previous owner stillhas it insured in his name. It sound like the thru hull was not secured on the inside of the boat. if the components are broken then maybe the divers fault but if they are not then it probaly was stuffed in the hole and not secured. that would be operator error. maybe the last owners fault?
Check to see it the previous owner stillhas it insured in his name. It sound like the thru hull was not secured on the inside of the boat. if the components are broken then maybe the divers fault but if they are not then it probaly was stuffed in the hole and not secured. that would be operator error. maybe the last owners fault?
- Status