6 to 9-ft seas @ 7 sec?

capta

.
Jun 4, 2009
4,766
Pearson 530 Admiralty Bay, Bequia SVG
A sea anchor off the bow is no longer thought to be a good heavy weather tactic unless you don't mind losing your rudder. Off the stern you'd most likely be pooped frequently. Some like drogues, but in my experience they leave the boat at the mercy of the seas, unable to maneuver quickly enough to avoid a capsize or pitchpole (see GGR 2018 for multiple examples).
I prefer to steer my boat once the wind reaches 60 knots or more. Maybe the AP or vane gear could handle it OK, but it's my job to take charge when things get dicey, so I steer.
6 to 9-ft seas @ 7 sec or even less period is pretty common here in the EC. You wouldn't get much sailing in during the season (hey, it's winter here, too) if you weren't willing to sail in that. Most just tuck a double reef in the main and use a smaller or partially furled headsail and 'just do it' to cross the channels. No second thoughts.
So, in answer to your question, given you are on a seaworthy 38' vessel, I think you should reef the main, use a smaller headsail or furl it just enough so that the boat keeps footing along well on whatever point of sail you need to be on and enjoy the sail.
 
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Jan 1, 2006
7,040
Slickcraft 26 Sailfish
I would want to head away from the low that is causing the wind. Sailing a close reach with reduced sail would get you away from the stronger winds and larger seas. So if the destination is right into the teeth of the wind, the low is to your right. Lower wind should be to your left. Sail on Starboard 3-4 kts. if possible. Sail deeper when possible. Sail up for waves that may break. Heave to if necessary. That would be my strategy.
But what do I know? Never sailed more than 100 miles offshore. And we know lows move.
Thanks for a good thread!
 
Jul 27, 2011
4,990
Bavaria 38E Alamitos Bay
6 to 9-ft seas @ 7 sec or even less period is pretty common here in the EC. You wouldn't get much sailing in during the season (hey, it's winter here, too) if you weren't willing to sail in that.
I recognize that a period of 6 to 7 sec, on 6 or 7-ft wave height, might not be overly rough. And even 9-ft seas are not really large against the back-drop of what one might encounter out there. But at the extreme those combinations would certainly not be wished for, and except for high-seas sailors, professional in your case, are at minimum an affront to one's sailing pleasure:(, if not presenting potential jeopardy to any who might be "under prepared." So, forethought on how to perhaps handle it is worthwhile!:huh:
 
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Jan 11, 2014
11,323
Sabre 362 113 Fair Haven, NY
So, forethought on how to perhaps handle it is worthwhile!
Forethought and rehearsal are always prudent. However, until the winds hit the waves it is all theoretical. Whatever you plan for and think about will be helpful, but probably won't be the solution you actually use, too many variables.

In reality, sailing in 3-4 foot seas is not all that different than sailing 8-10 foot seas. The steering is the same, the goal is the same, keep the boat speed under control, keep the boat flat, hang on and enjoy the ride. The first time or two can be scary, but after awhile it will second nature. Sailing the kind of conditions you describe may not be your first choice, but it can be safely managed with a little experience.

Frankly, it is far more challenging to sail in the left over slop when the wind dies down before the seas do. :(

Know how to reef, know how to sail in waves, and don't panic.
 
Jul 27, 2011
4,990
Bavaria 38E Alamitos Bay
I guess my interest in this situation is a bit more than academic. I was recently reading an account of a 45-ft Beneteau which sank in January in the Sea of Cortez after a few hours of on taking on water, which began after travelling 5 hours in conditions like those I describe (as was reported). Thankfully, the crew was rescued by another couple of sailors responding to the May Day, who pulled them from the Beneteau's life raft. Of course, all during hours of darkness in cold, rough, windy conditions. The skipper reported not discovering how the water had flooded the boat although certain alternatives were dismissed. Makes one consider various "what if" scenarios.:huh:
 
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Jan 11, 2014
11,323
Sabre 362 113 Fair Haven, NY
I guess my interest in this situation is a bit more than academic. I was recently reading an account of a 45-ft Beneteau which sank in January in the Sea of Cortez after a few hours of on taking on water, which began after travelling 5 hours in conditions like those I describe (as was reported). Thankfully, the crew was rescued by another couple of sailors responding to the May Day, who pulled them from the Beneteau's life raft. Of course, all during hours of darkness in cold, rough, windy conditions. The skipper reported not discovering how the water had flooded the boat although certain alternatives were dismissed. Makes one consider various "what if" scenarios.:huh:
In this case, making sure your boat is in good condition is paramount. That has less to do with steering through waves, although, sailing in a manner that pounds the boat in to waves can exacerbate any underlying problems with through hulls, hoses, transducers and shaft logs.
 
Jul 27, 2011
4,990
Bavaria 38E Alamitos Bay
Well, that's close to my point. Barring collision, grounding, lost thu-hulls or split hoses, leaky shaft, or shattered port-lights-all of the obvious things, how does a boat fill with enough water over a period of a few hours to sink? How is the water getting in and why so slowly, in the relative sense? You have to wonder if the sea state itself is a driving factor, coupled with how the boat is taking it. Somehow, somewhere, the below deck is open to the sea forcing its way in?
 
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Jan 11, 2014
11,323
Sabre 362 113 Fair Haven, NY
The leak starts small. A crack in a through hull and water seeps in, after a few hours the crack widens, and then finally opens up. Throw in some water leaking through ports, and deck fittings and pretty soon you have a mess, or at least a mess. of water in the boat. If the boat is heeled, that water will work its way up into the storage areas along the side of the boat and isn't immediately visible.

If the head isn't plumbed correctly, a back siphon can form and water can enter. Likewise with some sinks, water will back up in the drains. As water accumulates the boat sits lower and more water enters faster.

Just a few quick thoughts.
 

capta

.
Jun 4, 2009
4,766
Pearson 530 Admiralty Bay, Bequia SVG
I think I gave you an honest appraisal of what I think one should do in that case. Of course, it really depends on the point of sail.
On a run, drop the main and let the jib pull you; easier to steer. On a reach, a bigger jib and smaller main to help avoid broaching. On a beat, fall off a few degrees and keep up as much sail as the boat (and her skipper) can handle comfortably.
You can't practice for this stuff unless you sail in it, IMO. The more you sail in it, the more comfortable you should get.
As for water intrusion, I think most of the time it is from the spill pipe. Many forget to plug it and when the bow dips into the water, a lot of water can get into the anchor locker, and on most boats, filter back into the bilge.
On the 45-ft Beneteau mentioned above, if those aboard hadn't found the ingress point of the water before they took to the life raft, I doubt that anyone will ever know. But that builder has had some problems with their keel to hull attachment on some models and fin keel/spade rudder boats in general can be susceptible to problems with these items.
But, you know what, if an Oyster 825 can lose her keel and sink, I don't know that there is any boat out there that is "guaranteed" safe!
Below is a water ingress table. It will give you some idea of what your pumping capacity should be for a thru hull failure, etc.
water ingress table.jpg
 
Feb 20, 2011
7,990
Island Packet 35 Tucson, AZ/San Carlos, MX
I was recently reading an account of a 45-ft Beneteau which sank in January in the Sea of Cortez
I was thinking those conditions are kind of familiar. ;)
The Sea of Cortez is a friggin' washing machine.
 
Jul 27, 2011
4,990
Bavaria 38E Alamitos Bay
I wonder how often one examines or checks the tightness of keel-bolt nuts. For boats with bolted-on keels, this would seem to be an important routine inspection. Mine, I think there are 11 or 12 of them, are SS & double-nutted. Metric-size nuts, of course. Something like 30 mm if I recall correctly, which is more than an inch (25.4 mm). Nobody would have a wrench or socket in a typical tool set for that kind of nut, even it did need tightening and you might actually be able to do it. More than 10 yr ago I bought the correct open end wrench for the nuts. They always seem tight whenever I check.

If there were a leak detected at the keel-hull joint while underway, would there be any way to stop it? A futile effort? Tightening the nuts if visibly loose might keep the keel from working even looser and making a bigger problem. But it would likely still leak. I wonder what the ingress rate would in that kind of situation. In such in situation one would have to bring the boat to the mildest degree of motion possible, such as heaving to. And then get on the pumps:yikes:.
 
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Apr 8, 2010
1,942
Ericson Yachts Olson 34 28400 Portland OR
Decades ago I was cautioned about sailing/motoring against "Square" sea conditions and absorbed the idea of things getting bad when as the wave height approached the wave period. Over the years I have been rather uncomfortable in 3 foot by 3 foot, and more so in 7 by 7. At about that point the seas start breaking in any case. :(
The wave face cannot maintain shape.
On one quite memorable offshore delivery we were running downwind in gale conditions for 36 hours. Seas were 19 and winds at 39+. Breakers from horizon to horizon. Beautiful to look at all day and eerie as heck in the moonlight after dark.
Strong boat and other than some water wandering in from one boarding sea that filled the cockpit, we were safe enough. There was no way we could have turned around, tho. Vane did all the driving.
Point is, and I think that I have one, that it's the Period of the wave and not normally the height that causes all the problems.

OTOH, being in the middle of such conditions for a while does lead to philosophical discussions of life and pondering about a possible 'hereafter' ... :)
 
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Jul 27, 2011
4,990
Bavaria 38E Alamitos Bay
Decades ago I was cautioned about sailing/motoring against "Square" sea conditions and absorbed the idea of things getting bad when as the wave height approached the wave period. Over the years I have been rather uncomfortable in 3 foot by 3 foot, and more so in 7 by 7. At about that point the seas start breaking in any case. :(
The wave face cannot maintain shape.
On one quite memorable offshore delivery we were running downwind in gale conditions for 36 hours. Seas were 19 and winds at 39+. Breakers from horizon to horizon. Beautiful to look at all day and eerie as heck in the moonlight after dark.
Strong boat and other than some water wandering in from one boarding sea that filled the cockpit, we were safe enough. There was no way we could have turned around, tho. Vane did all the driving.
Point is, and I think that I have one, that it's the Period of the wave and not normally the height that causes all the problems.

OTOH, being in the middle of such conditions for a while does lead to philosophical discussions of life and pondering about a possible 'hereafter' ... :)
Now that you mention, the skipper did report that there were breaking seas about, at least initially.
 
Jan 11, 2014
11,323
Sabre 362 113 Fair Haven, NY
I wonder how often one examines or checks the tightness of keel-bolt nuts. For boats with bolted-on keels, this would seem to be an important routine inspection. Mine, I think there are 11 or 12 of them, are SS & double-nutted. Metric-size nuts, of course. Something like 30 mm if I recall correctly, which is more than an inch (25.4 mm). Nobody would have a wrench or socket in a typical tool set for that kind of nut, even it did need tightening and you might actually be able to do it. More than 10 yr ago I bought the correct open end wrench for the nuts. They always seem tight whenever I check.

If there were a leak detected at the keel-hull joint while underway, would there be any way to stop it? A futile effort? Tightening the nuts if visibly loose might keep the keel from working even looser and making a bigger problem. But it would likely still leak. I wonder what the ingress rate would in that kind of situation. In such in situation one would have to bring the boat to the mildest degree of motion possible, such as heaving to. And then get on the pumps:yikes:.
Checking keel bolt torque is a good idea. Depending on your sailing it does not need to be done every year. Do check after a grounding or sailing in extreme conditions.

Checking the torque requires the boat to be on the hard with the weight of the boat firmly on the keel. Then use a torque wrench, loosen each bolt/nut and then tighten to the specified torque.

If the boat has been grounded, especially a hard grounding, also check the hull laminations around the keel stub and the interior framing, especially the floor timbers for cracking and delamenation.
 
Jul 27, 2011
4,990
Bavaria 38E Alamitos Bay
Checking keel bolt torque is a good idea. Depending on your sailing it does not need to be done every year. Do check after a grounding or sailing in extreme conditions.

Checking the torque requires the boat to be on the hard with the weight of the boat firmly on the keel. Then use a torque wrench, loosen each bolt/nut and then tighten to the specified torque.

If the boat has been grounded, especially a hard grounding, also check the hull laminations around the keel stub and the interior framing, especially the floor timbers for cracking and delamenation.
It’s the top nuts (I.e., double-nutted) that I “routinely” check with my open end wrench. If any were noticed to be backing off, then yeah; into the yard for a full-blown torque inspection, etc.
 
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Jan 11, 2014
11,323
Sabre 362 113 Fair Haven, NY
The top nut is to keep the bottom nut from working loose. However, with the weight of the keel on the bottom nut, the keel can be loose although the nuts are tight. Next time you haul, it would probably be good to check the torque on the bottom nut.
 
Jul 27, 2011
4,990
Bavaria 38E Alamitos Bay
The top nut is to keep the bottom nut from working loose. However, with the weight of the keel on the bottom nut, the keel can be loose although the nuts are tight.
Of course. But if the top nut is “loose” at some point, the bottom one is sure to back off even though as you say, it appears tight due to the weight of the keel. But, in any event, you would not expect them all to be “loose” at the same time, where the weight of the keel would mask it (loose top nut) for every single one especially as most of them are arranged in tandem pairs, athwart. That is, one might be detectably loose b/c the others are still supporting the load of the keel. So, we discover a potential failure at its incipient stage.
 
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