37 cutter to sloop

Roland5048 · Oct 21, 2016

Just curious. What does single handling have to do with whether it's a cutter or sloop rig? I know that bringing the genny through the slot between the stays can be a pain during a tack but, the cutter rig does offer more combinations of sail plans. And, I would think, that having that smaller staysail would be easier to control in heavy air when single handling. Just my $.02.

jssailem · Oct 21, 2016

with Roland. My 35' boat is a sloop. I'm working on adding a stay shroud to give me the option of a Cutter rig.
I currently have a 146 Genoa. Using a furler. Also have a 100 Jib that can use the furler. When the Genoa is partially furled I can sail in better control, but the sail is still on the bow. The pressure on the sail that far forward (further from the the mast - boat pivot point) cause me to reef an even smaller sail to balance the boat. Using the Cutter setup the pressure on the sail is moved closer to the Mast giving me more options.

If you are just looking to have an easier rig to manage and more sail area in light air, than taking out the Cutter shroud makes sense. You will not be getting more sail set up options.

If you make the change Cutter to Sloop, in my opinion, you will need 2 sails: a 140 something Genoa and a 100 jib.

Jim Legere · Oct 21, 2016

I solo-sail my Hunter 37 Cutter a lot. I have also sailed a friend's C&C 37 sloop. I prefer the cutter rig to the sloop for solo sailing. The sails are smaller so that they are easier to handle. There is probably 20 feet less sheet to deal with when tacking the yankee jib versus a genoa; it is sheeted home a lot faster. When the wind gets up to 20 knots, I just roll up the Yankee and sail on the staysail - since it is self-tacking I don't have to touch a sheet...just put the helm over when I want to tack. I could go on, but you get my drift. On the other hand, Blaise Pascal (H37C "Midnight Sun") would say that the conversion to sloop makes the boat faster and more close winded.

Roland5048 · Oct 21, 2016

Also, the mast on traditional cutter rigs may be stepped further aft requiring a much larger headsail if you want to overlap the main. And, what jsailem said about the furled sail being on the bow: a lot of us reef the genny in high winds but what that actually does is move the center of effort forward and up. Exactly where you don't want it. A staysail keeps the COE closer to center and low where you want it during high winds. Maybe you could get by with a removable baby stay. Unpin from the deck and lash to the mast when not in use.

jssailem · Oct 21, 2016

Jim Legere said:
On the other hand, Blaise Pascal (H37C "Midnight Sun") would say that the conversion to sloop makes the boat faster and more close winded.

Ok I need more info. The only issue appears to be the difference sloop vs cutter rigging is of a wire from the foredeck to the mast. Without any sails on the staysail shroud you essentially are sailing a sloop when you use the Genoa attached to the bow fore shroud. There is evidence that a furler can influence your point of sail but unless your racing the 2-4 degrees off the wind is an acceptable compromise for the cruising sailor.
Please help me understand this information.

jssailem · Oct 21, 2016

Frankies, "RV" that really is a dark side. But I have heard that same discussion from my spouse.
What is the problem with the self tacking jib on the Stay sail. Would save you several thousand in sail cost.
From the looks of the Saildata diagram the Stay sail was designed as a self tacking jib.

Jim Legere · Oct 21, 2016

Frankies,
Send a PM to Blaise - He can answer any of your questions about converting your boat from a cutter to a sloop. I am happy with (and sticking with) a cutter rig.
Jim

Alctel · Oct 21, 2016

I'll trade you my 36 sloop for the 37 cutter

Stu Jackson · Oct 22, 2016

frankies56 said:
at the point where this old man wife is pushing for a trawler

You already have a trawler, but with a more comfortable motion, especially at anchor, with the keel.

You can also make up a self tending jib without hardware (i.e., a track and/or a staysail boom) with just lines. Google can find it for you.

jssailem · Oct 23, 2016

Frankie. What is wrong with the suggested self tacking jib attached to your inner fore shroud.
Smaller sail.
Easier to manage than a sail on the fore sail shroud.
A 100% fore sail (Genoa) is bigger than any stay sail on your inner shroud.

Alan Johnson · Oct 23, 2016

Why change a VERY GOOD design. I had owned a 1985 37C with the staysail and yankee and I often sailed it solo. The sail plan is very easy to sail and I think adding a larger headsail and eliminating a SELF TACKING staysail makes for added work when tacking. On my 37C I did change the sails to make the staysail rollerfurling and added a third furling line on the main. I sailed this sail plan twice from Long Island to Bermuda an had COMLETE control in all winds that I encountered up to 35 kt. My personal observation is to leave the existing sail plan as is but to add a main third reef and make the staysail a furling unit. It is the best boat I have ever owned as designed.

Alan Johnson SV Skol Port Jefferson NY

Jim Legere · Oct 24, 2016

frankies56 said:
Thank you for all your input. I had asked blaise about his boat and said he used a 130 on his boat. I am trying to see what others thought that made the change to sloop the boat can always go back to cutter when cruising, was just looking for an easy way to sail when doing a lot of tacking.again its just me pulling the sheets and steering the boat gets to be a chalange at times

Just remember - the bigger the genoa, the more sheet you have to pull in. The original size, high cut yankee jib passes quite easily between the inner and outer forestays; just let it 'back' a bit before releasing the 'old' sheet and the jib will tack quite smartly. Because the "J" measurement is small, there is very little 'new' sheet to winch in. Just my $0.02 as a solo cutter sailor.

PS: remember - a large genoa means larger forces. The winches and turning blocks may need upgrading as well...just sayin'

rardiH36 · Oct 24, 2016

To hi-jack this thread (but just a little bit since a lot on the same topic) what is Hunter's 37C OEM sheeting arrangement for the forward jib (the jib with the luff on the forestay)?

I ask because as some might have noticed, I have posted on Ask-All-Sailors about considerations for installation of an inside t-track on my 1980 Cherubini Hunter 36. Jib sheeting now is by snap shackle blocks onto the aluminum toe rail. An inside track will move the sheeting about 18-20 inches more to the centerline (on each side) than toe rail sheeting.

If the 37's OEM arrangement was also on the toe rail, has anybody installed an inside track? If so, has close-haul performance improved?

jssailem · Oct 24, 2016

I do not have a Hunter boat. Looking at pictures of the way the 37 and 36 are rigged, my observation are:

The 37 Cutter has a self tacking Stay Sail attached to the inner stay. This has the sheets running inside of the stays. The sail sits in front of the mast and ahead of the forward mast stay.
The Fore sail (Genoa or Yankee) is cut high. It is designed so when tacked it will not hang on the Inner Stay. The sail passes in the space between the inner and fore stays, aided by back winding the sail through the tack. The sheets for this sail are led outside the shrouds and appear to attach to the rail as you state your rigging is designed.
A sloop rig uses a large fore sail. You want to have the sail extend back out and around the shrouds (130- to - 150% sail). Trying to tuck it in between the mast and shrouds would be of little benefit an likely conflict with shrouds and spreaders.
A small fore sail (90% jib) rigged on a sloop appears it could be rigged so that the sheets were inside of the shrouds. You would be giving up sail area to have the inside rigging. Not sure you would be getting much benefit in return. Note that if this rig is to use in heavy air the sail would still be on the bow. This would not give you the benefit of center of power change available to the cutter configuration.

If I was into experimenting with such a concept I would set a small jib on the forestay and attach a block to a strong point inside of the shrouds and see what happens. You will see pretty quickly weather or not the idea has merit.

rardiH36 · Oct 24, 2016

jssailem:

Thanks for your insights.

One respect of difference between the the Cherubini 36 and the 37 is that the 36''s mast is located more forward than the 37's

My jib (12 months new) was cut so it's sort of a cross between a deck swept and a Yankee. The clew when sheeted tight, is 3'9" above the deck. (The tack is 2'). The clew extends 4-6" past the center cap shroud.

Sheeting inside the shrouds is not the objective for me. Rather, as I have observed on many cruiser type boats sailing on San Francisco bay, inside sheeting seems to change the shape of forward section of the jib, even if the jib is still outside the shrouds which is most often the case. And when sailing off wind, of course the jib needs to be let out considerably. Sheeting my jib inside the shrouds wouldn't do for off wind reaches.

Also for my boat, for the clew/leach part of the sail, the conversion to inside track will enable me to bring the sail towards the centerline almost up against the shrouds if I want. With the OEM toe rail sheeting, in stiffer winds (the SF Bay norm), even when I winch almost to the 200 lb gorilla tension (which I don't do since in my mid 60's I am well past the alpha male age and also I weigh only 180lbs!), the clew can't be drawn in to more than about 1.5 feet outside of the center cap shroud.

I guess my question still is will inside vs. toe rail make much difference? I have experiemented with barber hauling in. Seems to help, but hard to really quantify since our winds are so variable in both velocity and direction. Also on SF Bay, a typical close haul reach seldom exceeds 15 minutes. Using a barber-hauler when single handing does add another layer of complexity/risk with the inconsistent conditions and the frequent tacking.

jssailem · Oct 24, 2016

So, I am trying to visualize what you are trying to do with the sail. What you describe, I see the leech taught and pulled down, the foot of the sail full maybe loose. Is that the shape you are getting? So by taking the sail inside of the shrouds will you get a tighter foot and a bit fuller leech?

jssailem · Oct 24, 2016

The issue for the head sail is to find the right aerodynamic form for the wind you are sailing. Here is a link that begins ti identify the "Perfect shape" (http://www.wb-sails.fi/hs-fs/hub/209338/file-13855984-htm/news/98_11_perfectshape/main.htm). At least from a technical standpoint.

With such variability in the SF bay wind I would think that the rail with several locations and a barber-hauler would provide better shaping than the inside the shroud arrangement. Not to say that installing a hard point inside may become an additional option. It just appears to be an extra complication.