222 Loose Backstay

[Wooden Shoe]

I've just acquired a 222 and the backstay has very noticeable slack (about 4" side to side). The turnbuckle is fully closed with no room to take up the slack. Is this normal? If not, is it feasible to have the upper portion shortened?

Wooden Shoe

 

[Joe11688]

Can you take up on your fore stay? If you can take up on the fore stay you'll need to loosen your lower stays first. The O'Day 222 should have a triangular plate attached to the back stay for the main sheet attachment to the end of the boom. Do you have this plate on your back stay? What make is the spars on this boat, Z-Diffusion or Dwyer? Take some pics of it and post them here.

 

[Indysailor]

On the 23, there were different length tails (the part between the transom and the triangle). If you don't have any room to tighten the forestay, you can call Rudy at D&R and talk it over. I'm not sure sure about the 222s, but maybe they had different tail sizes as well.
I would keep an eye on the mast as well. You don't want to tighten the forestay to the point that it's leaning way forward to accommodate the backstay.

 

[Joe11688]

On the 23, there were different length tails (the part between the transom and the triangle). If you don't have any room to tighten the forestay, you can call Rudy at D&R and talk it over. I'm not sure sure about the 222s, but maybe they had different tail sizes as well.
I would keep an eye on the mast as well. You don't want to tighten the forestay to the point that it's leaning way forward to accommodate the backstay.

I had the same set up on my boat years ago before I mounted a traveler in front of my companionway. I think the tail on my backstay was about 12"
You're right though. You don't want to rake the mast too far forward and pick up lee helm. There has to be be a certain amount of rake aft. Maybe his mast is raked too far aft though. If he is experiencing excessive weather helm right now, he should rake the mast forward.
Take note though. If the kick up rudder blade is not all the way down on the O'Day 222 you're going to experience excessive weather helm.

 

[Wooden Shoe]

Can you take up on your fore stay? If you can take up on the fore stay you'll need to loosen your lower stays first. The O'Day 222 should have a triangular plate attached to the back stay for the main sheet attachment to the end of the boom. Do you have this plate on your back stay? What make is the spars on this boat, Z-Diffusion or Dwyer? Take some pics of it and post them here.

Thanks for responding..... The fore stay can be adjusted; however, the mast already has a bit of forward rake, so I would like to avoid that and even get a rake a bit toward the stern..Yes, the back stay has a triangular plate - boom attaches to the third point........Don't know what make of mast, but have attached a picture - If needed I can do a closeup this week & forward. The halyards are internal and I am led to believe that may be a defining characteristic...

 

[Wooden Shoe]

Loos e Backstay Spar Pciture

Looks like the pic was lost along the way - Here it is....

 

[Joe11688]

Thanks for responding..... The fore stay can be adjusted; however, the mast already has a bit of forward rake, so I would like to avoid that and even get a rake a bit toward the stern..Yes, the back stay has a triangular plate - boom attaches to the third point........Don't know what make of mast, but have attached a picture - If needed I can do a closeup this week & forward. The halyards are internal and I am led to believe that may be a defining characteristic...

If your spars have internal halyards and control lines in the boom, your topping lift should be comprised of a white neoprene covered wire cable very similar to the lifelines. This cable has a swaged ball fitting at the mast head and a swaged marine eye fitting at the boom end for a single sheave.
Your boom should have three control lines in it, one of them passes through the sheave at the end of the topping lift cable, and connects to the boom and your topping lift is controlled right as the goose neck.

This is a real nifty setup on my boat for being able to do the reefing at the mast. Try to take some close ups of anything that may be pertinent like the back stay, Main sheet attachment at the boom and back stay, the boom, the mast tabernacle, and topping lift attachment.

If your mast is raked forward right now you certainly don't want to take up on it any more.
Your mast tabernacle should be a cast Aluminum extrusion with a sheave at the base for the Jib Halyard. I hated that set up and was always glad that I changed it when I had my new mast set up. The spar extrusions were manufactured in France and assembled in the states. Z-Diffusion was located in Bristol RI back then.

 

[Wooden Shoe]

Second Response to Trinkka

If your spars have internal halyards and control lines in the boom, your topping lift should be comprised of a white neoprene covered wire cable very similar to the lifelines. This cable has a swaged ball fitting at the mast head and a swaged marine eye fitting at the boom end for a single sheave.
Your boom should have three control lines in it, one of them passes through the sheave at the end of the topping lift cable, and connects to the boom and your topping lift is controlled right as the goose neck.

This is a real nifty setup on my boat for being able to do the reefing at the mast. Try to take some close ups of anything that may be pertinent like the back stay, Main sheet attachment at the boom and back stay, the boom, the mast tabernacle, and topping lift attachment.

If your mast is raked forward right now you certainly don't want to take up on it any more.
Your mast tabernacle should be a cast Aluminum extrusion with a sheave at the base for the Jib Halyard. I hated that set up and was always glad that I changed it when I had my new mast set up. The spar extrusions were manufactured in France and assembled in the states. Z-Diffusion was located in Bristol RI back then.

Your description fits my rig, but I will confirm with pics tomorrow.. I really think I will need to replace the back stay as it must be stretched....On the other hand, if it tightens up when the main fills, I wonder what that might indicate ...........Many Thanks

 

[RichBone]

While there is some stretch in stainless cable, it is very little. Certainly not as much to cause what you're describing.

 

[rogerlwhite]

I've just acquired a 222 and the backstay has very noticeable slack (about 4" side to side). The turnbuckle is fully closed with no room to take up the slack. Is this normal? If not, is it feasible to have the upper portion shortened?

Wooden Shoe

I had the same problem on my O'Day 192. The best solution is to have the uper portion of the backstay shorted, either professionally swaged or use a Navtec fitting. I think I took the cheaper way out and just fastened the upper and lower portions together at a common hole on the triangle plate. Wasn't pretty but it worked.

 

[Joe11688]

Your description fits my rig, but I will confirm with pics tomorrow.. I really think I will need to replace the back stay as it must be stretched....On the other hand, if it tightens up when the main fills, I wonder what that might indicate ...........Many Thanks

The only thing I can think of is maybe the backstay chainplate has move up for some reason. Maybe water got into the area and rotted the core enough to cause the chainplate to slide up. The chainplate is bolted and glassed over. Check this out before doing anything with the backstay.

If your mast was mfg by Z-Diffusion, it's a Z-190 mast. I have a spec sheet that shows this mast and all the extrusions that are supposed to be on it. If for instance someone change the mast head or the tabernacle, you're going to see a difference in the stay lengths.

 

[Wooden Shoe]

Mast Pictures

The only thing I can think of is maybe the backstay chainplate has move up for some reason. Maybe water got into the area and rotted the core enough to cause the chainplate to slide up. The chainplate is bolted and glassed over. Check this out before doing anything with the backstay.

If your mast was mfg by Z-Diffusion, it's a Z-190 mast. I have a spec sheet that shows this mast and all the extrusions that are supposed to be on it. If for instance someone change the mast head or the tabernacle, you're going to see a difference in the stay lengths.

Here are the pics .... The chainplate looks OK... From your previous description, I take this to be a Z-Diffusion mast, so I plan to take it in steps (1) tighten the fore stay and see how it sails... (2) if too much weather helm, shorten or replace the back stay....

 

[Wooden Shoe]

Here are the pics .... The chainplate looks OK... From your previous description, I take this to be a Z-Diffusion mast, so I plan to take it in steps (1) tighten the fore stay and see how it sails... (2) if too much weather helm, shorten or replace the back stay....

Forgot to attach the pics.....

 

[Stu Jackson]

Something seems odd. The triangle piece usually has the single stay at the top. It seems upside down. One connection to the mast, two to the transom chainplates. Is the backstay in the picture connected?

 

[Joe11688]

Forgot to attach the pics.....

Your triangular plate is connected wrong.
Your Mainsheet should be connected to the hole in the plate where your backstay is connected at the top of the plate.
I don't know if it's going to make any difference in the stay tension though but you need to switch those two connection points. Switch them and take another picture of the backstay and include the backstay chainplate in the pic. Your spars are Z-Diffusion like mine.

I'm wondering if that backstay was replaced and they cut it too long. Your backstay should be 1/8" wire cable.
If you completely remove your backstay and it checks out to be in serviceable condition but it was cut too long by the PO, you can do a number of things to correct the problem depending on how much you want to invest. If it's the original stay and there is another logical reason for all this slack in stay, then you need to find out why, otherwise I would get the mast up and tension the backstay with a set of come alongs and adjust the fore stay so that the mast is raked back to where it is supposed to be.
Then you are going to need to take a close measurement by lining up the backstay wire with the chain plate to mark it off where it's going to need to be cut for a new swage marine eye fitting.
I'll be honest with you. This is a job for an experience spar rigger. This is a job that I would be leery of tackling myself.
At this point I think that this is the route you should take right now, because I think you need to sail this boat long enough to decide whether you want to stick with, the end of the boom sheeting from that plate on your back stay, or go with a traveler which entails eliminating that triangular plate all together like I did.
I went a step further and had the rigger install a quick release backstay lever and it was the best decision I ever made. It's been both a work saver and a time saver on my boat, but these mods if you choose in doing them, can come gradually as you get used to sailing this boat.

To say that this, or that, is the reason for your problem would be pure conjecture for anyone on this forum including me. Maybe if we were to actually view your boat at your home port, we could make a positive evaluation to what is going on. This is where an experienced rigger comes in. I've actually trailered my boat down to D&R Marine a couple of times and had Rudy look at it. You may need to trailer your boat to a local rigger or have him come down and look at it if he'll agree to do that.
Good Luck!
Joe

 

[Wooden Shoe]

Something seems odd. The triangle piece usually has the single stay at the top. It seems upside down. One connection to the mast, two to the transom chainplates. Is the backstay in the picture connected?

The triangle plate on this boat actually provides a termination point for the main boom's block & tackle.... the back stay is in two pieces and utilizes the other two connecting points.

 

[Wooden Shoe]

Good Advice

Your triangular plate is connected wrong.
Your Mainsheet should be connected to the hole in the plate where your backstay is connected at the top of the plate.
I don't know if it's going to make any difference in the stay tension though but you need to switch those two connection points. Switch them and take another picture of the backstay and include the backstay chainplate in the pic. Your spars are Z-Diffusion like mine.

I'm wondering if that backstay was replaced and they cut it too long. Your backstay should be 1/8" wire cable.
If you completely remove your backstay and it checks out to be in serviceable condition but it was cut too long by the PO, you can do a number of things to correct the problem depending on how much you want to invest. If it's the original stay and there is another logical reason for all this slack in stay, then you need to find out why, otherwise I would get the mast up and tension the backstay with a set of come alongs and adjust the fore stay so that the mast is raked back to where it is supposed to be.
Then you are going to need to take a close measurement by lining up the backstay wire with the chain plate to mark it off where it's going to need to be cut for a new swage marine eye fitting.
I'll be honest with you. This is a job for an experience spar rigger. This is a job that I would be leery of tackling myself.
At this point I think that this is the route you should take right now, because I think you need to sail this boat long enough to decide whether you want to stick with, the end of the boom sheeting from that plate on your back stay, or go with a traveler which entails eliminating that triangular plate all together like I did.
I went a step further and had the rigger install a quick release backstay lever and it was the best decision I ever made. It's been both a work saver and a time saver on my boat, but these mods if you choose in doing them, can come gradually as you get used to sailing this boat.

To say that this, or that, is the reason for your problem would be pure conjecture for anyone on this forum including me. Maybe if we were to actually view your boat at your home port, we could make a positive evaluation to what is going on. This is where an experienced rigger comes in. I've actually trailered my boat down to D&R Marine a couple of times and had Rudy look at it. You may need to trailer your boat to a local rigger or have him come down and look at it if he'll agree to do that.
Good Luck!
Joe

Many Thanks for the advice... It seems the sound and prudent approach.

 

[Joe11688]

Many Thanks for the advice... It seems the sound and prudent approach.

I think so because if it turns out that the problem was caused by something else other than the back stay, you will have gone through a lot of needless cost and time in trying to correct the problem by shortening up the back stay.

 

[srojoetoo]

Your triangular plate is connected wrong.
Your Mainsheet should be connected to the hole in the plate where your backstay is connected at the top of the plate.
Good Luck!
Joe

Joe

any chance you could post a pic of your set up. Check that, you have a traveller. Anybody else?

 

[Joe11688]

Joe

any chance you could post a pic of your set up. Check that, you have a traveller. Anybody else?

I have pics up the ying yang of just about everything I've done on my boat. I'd be glad to post it for you.

The first pic shows the Johnson Handy-Lock. Above the H.L. is the open turnbuckle which is hidden under the rubber pipe cover. Johnson make a lever release which is a little cheaper than the H.L. and would work just as well. The H.L. allows me to throw enough slack in the fore stay to remove it. It's a "must have" for the trailer sailor. A press button quick pin on the fore stay makes the set up faster and easier. Don't ever use a "Fast Pin" on anything.
The second pic shows my first traveler, a Nico Fico. It was adaquate but not user friendly. I made that Teak beam for the track many years ago and it works like a champ.
I just installed this Harken traveler this past spring. What a difference!