2000 Oceanis 411 Rudder Issue

[RenatoM]

Hi all,
Hoping that someone can help me out with a rudder issue.
We purchased the 411 6 months ago with a very stiff rudder. Figuring that we will haul it out at the end of the season we used the boat as is. The rudder got a bit worse but still usable.
In mean time I purchased the whole bearing kit for the rudder from Beneteau.
Hauled the boat out and dropped the rudder to find out the rudder shaft is carbon fiber and the kit doesn't fit, it was made for stainless steel shaft.
There is no obvious reasons for the rudder to be stiff. Actually it came right out without a problem.
Any info or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Renato

 

[Mechone]

I believe I read somewhere Beneteau farmed out some later 411 rudders to Tides marine. Your rudder and bearing would also come from them, not Beneteau . They made the bearings out of UHMW which I believe is cheapy cheap . Delrin is tensile strength 10,000 psi UNMW 3100 psi and delrin is 10x the cost. I machined my own bearing out of delrin 4 years ago now , zero play and no stiffness

 

[RitSim]

I had the same issue on my 1999 B411. On my rudder, the upper bearing is some type of plastic. There was plenty of grit and dirt on the upper bearing. This caused "threads" of plastic to form from both upper bearing surfaces. I took a lot of measurements. In the end, I 220 grit lightly sanded the threads off of the bearing OD and used a water-wet extra fine cylinder hone to do the same on the upper bearing ID. My lower bearing was a different story. It looked like I had sufficient clearances but had to wait to Spring to reinstall. I did lightly sand the lower bearing OD just to clean it a little. I was able to test the upper bearing clearances by inverting the rudder and inserting it from above- worked well but was a little awkward.
Fast forward to Last Spring. When I tried to install the rudder from below the lower bearing would not go in. The rudder bearing OD had 1/4" surface cracks and tiny blisters at those cracks. I emailed Tides in the beginning and also after finding the cracks. Got good response from Skip Lookabaugh <skipl@tidesmarine.com>. His appraisal of my rudder was that someone had applied a resin (epoxy?) surface layer to the lower bearing. Made the decision to sand the bearing OD (since the resin layer was added by someone after initial manufacture) until I got a good fit. Been smooth sailing for this year. Two of the pics below (202011...)are just after removal and the (202105...) are the cracks and blisters referenced above.

 

[RenatoM]

Thank you guys for great info.
The surfaces on my rudder look really nice. Very light scratches and no play.
I'll pass them with some very fine sandpaper and polish them and reinstall the rudder. Also, I'll contact Skip to verify this.
Should there be some lubricant applied?

 

[RitSim]

If the rudder is stiff, then there are some clearance issues somewhere. As for lubricant. I thought about that but didn't want to introduce grease that would attract more grit/dirt. Graphite is a possibility but getting it to the correct locations would be a challenge. I would want to take some measurements (fore/aft, side/side) at the upper, mid, low side of the bearings ID and OD to see if there is any out or round affecting the operation.

The lower bearing is flooded. Most of my debris was grit in the upper bearing.

 

[JamesG161]

The rudder shaft/bearings may not be the stiffness issue.

Noteworthy is the Helm to rudder control method. Cables and pulleys?
Also many had steering brakes too.

Jim....

 

[bwagner187]

Great advise Jim !!! I keep my rudder amidship with the steering brake nice and snug when she's berthed . I loosen and adjust accordingly to the sailing conditions as needed . I like some steering resistance when sailing . I would check the steering brake . it is located forward of the wheel on the right side . It could even be tightened and frozen and non adjustable. Cheers

 

[KStolten]

Hi there

I am about to throw my self into the project of replacing the rudder bearing soon and was wondering if you have the measurements for how much room I need under the rudder to be able to pull it out. My 411 1999 is on the hard now and it would be nice to know if I need a crane to lift the boat further up or if I can begin the disassembly…

fair winds everyone!

kind regards
Karsten

 

[jssailem]

Karsten. Welcome to SBO.
I would use a tape measure to identify the distance from the boat bottom (inside), to the top of the rudder shaft, then add half a meter.
That should provide you with a way to see how deep you need to make the hole under the rudder. Most of the boat owners I have met dig a meter or more deep hole under the rudder blade to drop the rudder. It would depend on how high the boat is above the ground. Digging a hole is often preferred over hanging in a lift.

Best of luck

 

[KStolten]

Hi jssailem

thanks for the advise! I will try that.

digging will not work for me as the boat is on tarmac. I think the harbor master would not appreciate if I dig holes there

Best regards
Karsten

 

[jssailem]

Understand. I've seen boats moved to a place in the yard where one can accomplish such a task. It is not a quick process.
I've also seen boats set high on blocks and stands to achieve the maximum height under the boat so that the rudder can be pulled.

Hanging in the sling is always an option. However, it is the most costly option around the marina I am in.

 

[smokey73]

Its a little to late for this particular situation but if you think you will need to pull your rudder get everything loosed and ready to pull when you haul the boat. Then when the boat is hauled the rudder can be dropped while in the slings before it is set on its blocks. I did this and it only took about 10 extra minutes or less and four strong guys to lower the rudder from the rudder tube. Likewise, when you get ready to launch, have everything ready and put the rudder into the tube when it is in the slings. This saves a lot of time and some boatyards (at least my boatyard didn't) don't charge anything extra or only a nominal fee since they had the people already there to help with the lift.

 

[Syl]

We have a 1998 B411 with the carbon rudder post. Our helming stiffness only seems to be an issue when it's really hot and humid outside. Last summer, being in New England USA, the stiffness of the helm appeared in mid July and then went away for the rest of the summer. Helm turned very nicely for the rest of summer without any issues. Talked to our boatyard and was told 3 to 5 K to drop the rudder and have the bottom bearing sanded down. I don't want to bash their knowledge but am wondering if it's worth it and am worried about introducing play when it's not hot and humid. I also wanted to check about the accuracy of the bottom bearing being the issue and not the top? I think on the B411 FB page I read someone saying their fix was the top bearing. Finally, would it not be better to sand (if this is the way to fix it) the bushing instead of the the carbon bearing build into the rudder? Seems the bushing is replaceable, whereas the bearing is not... Any input is great appreciated.