1993 Hunter 42 Passage CC: Leaking near a few of the keel bolts. Ulcer time.

[BabuBoat]

Over on the other place (Keel Bolts: OCD or OMG? - Cruisers & Sailing Forums) I've detailed the horror of discovering water slowly seeping into the bilges nearby the keel bolts. This was discovered in a fit of OCD-inspired bilge cleaning and has led to various permutations of the expression, OMG.

I've been fortunate to hear a lot of great advice spanning from "don't worry. The keel will not fall off," to "get her on the hard now before she sinks". As the leaking is very very slow and only seen in three places, all of which are near, but not on, the bolts, I'm taking the middle ground. I'm also not about to do an Atlantic crossing.

It would be helpful to hear from some Hunter owners who have faced this issue. What was your experience? How did you address the issue?

It would also be good to know if (a) it's even possible to drop the keel (on the hard!) without damage to the hull, (b) what the keel bolt and nut are made of and their torque specifications, and (c) what gives with the large hard rubber rings (shock absorbers?) beneath the nuts on the four keel bolts in the main (larger) bilge.

The boat has a hard grounding history, and it's unusual. The previous owner backed into something, destroying the rudder. The entire rudder and its mount was custom rebuilt at huge expense. The hull was inspected and found to be uninjured. Same for her survey when I bought her in January. Now this.

Sympathies appreciated. Advice and info wold be gold.

 

[Ralph Johnstone]

Do you have any idea what this crap is :

It also appears in your other bilge :

Does it appear under all of the keel bolt washers or is this an optical illusion?

 

[BabuBoat]

Boat cancer?

Someone speculated that it might be the (steel plate?) washer, covered in the last fiberglass layer and gelcoated.

Should I peck away at one and... "discover"?

In the first photo, perhaps you can see the tiny pooling of water oozing out of that crack above the bolt?

 

[Ralph Johnstone]

Boat cancer?

That's what I thought for a first guess.

Should I peck away at one and... "discover"?

A little learning is a dangerous thing. Alexander Pope (1688-1744), or Big Al as we used to call him. You've got to find out exactly what you've inherited, warts and all. I can't say I feel well at all looking at what you've got. And I have no idea what you've even got. I'm sitting here wondering, is that nut bearing down on a large SS surface or is it just pressing down on FG and gel coat. There are enough cracks to make you wonder. You really hope for something like this :

In the first photo, perhaps you can see the tiny pooling of water oozing out of that crack above the bolt?

I saw it live in the video. I can't remove it from my retinae, try as I might. Let us know what is under there.

 

[BabuBoat]

Let us know what is under there.

Safe to do, while in water?

 

[jssailem]

Good morning @BabuBoat Welcome to the SBO. Your query about picking at what may be a scab while in the water is one I would not advise. It is unclear what you may discover. Your statement:

The boat has a hard grounding history

If you are equipped with adequate pumping equipment, and have a back up plan to get the boat out of the water if something goes bad, then doing such in water investigation is a captains option. I generally avoid creating holes in the hull while in the water.

Thinking strategically, what do you do if you find something serious. If you are on the hard you can examine all of the structure. You may or may not need to address the keel. What ever you do you want to stop the water from the outside, not put a patch on the inside. A patch means you still have water somewhere in and around the keel and hull. This would be a festering injury to the boat that will gradually do damage.

As you said, and I agree.

I'm also not about to do an Atlantic crossing.

 

[Terry Cox]

It would be helpful to hear from some Hunter owners who have faced this issue. What was your experience? How did you address the issue?

Hunter built their boats in such a way that in order for sea water to bypass the keel stub seal would require some sort of strike that would break that seal. That appears to have happened to our 1991 P42 that caused the keel stub joint to fail (a slight smile). To correct the problem required that we lift the boat off of the keel, clean and fair both parts of the joint and re-bed with 3M5200. It also seems the strike caused a slight stretch in the keel bolt threads, so the yard added FRP shims (washers) to raise the keel bolt nuts into fresh threads.

That repair was done in 2004 and has remained solid ever since after cruising thousands of miles all over PNW waters. Every few years we haul the boat to clean, apply fresh coats of bottom paint and inspect the joint repair. I do not recall the keel bolt torque settings, perhaps MH might know.

 

[kloudie1]

I hate to say it, but those rubber rings were probably added to try to stop water coming in around the bolts.. probably needs to get looked at very closely while on the hard as has been suggested.

 

[Ralph Johnstone]

And I have no idea what you've even got.

Upon further reflection (and morning coffee) I've got to say that what you've inherited is a mess put together by one or more mental black holes. Although I don't think that picking away at one of these bolts to see what's underneath is going to place your boat in any peril, it's definitely a waste of time. The sole purpose of this mess in your bilge was to stop the water from coming in and not to correct the problem from the outside.

I would suggest hauling out and a full cleaning of he bolt heads as a start to the investigation.

 

[BabuBoat]

I hate to say it, but those rubber rings were probably added to try to stop water coming in around the bolts.. probably needs to get looked at very closely while on the hard as has been suggested.

Guess I was optimistic, referring to them as shock absorbers.

Doesn't say much for my surveyor!

/m

 

[BabuBoat]

Upon further reflection (and morning coffee) I've got to say that what you've inherited is a mess put together by one or more mental black holes. Although I don't think that picking away at one of these bolts to see what's underneath is going to place your boat in any peril, it's definitely a waste of time. The sole purpose of this mess in your bilge was to stop the water from coming in and not to correct the problem from the outside.

I would suggest hauling out and a full cleaning of he bolt heads as a start to the investigation.

You mean, absent removing the keel? I suppose this would be a good first step.. but as water is getting past the keel to hull joint, I'm guessing it will be preferable to "drop" the keel entirely.

On that subject, at least one person suggested that if it's epoxied to the hull, I'm in for a big world of hurt.

Is there a means to determine this on the hard?

 

[Ralph Johnstone]

On that subject, at least one person suggested that if it's epoxied to the hull, I'm in for a big world of hurt.

I'm afraid that's true.

Is there a means to determine this on the hard?

I can't think of anything besides holding the hull up a fraction of an inch above the blocks under the keel and then undoing the nuts on the keel bolts and pray the keel drops away. Only a madman would epoxy the keel to the stub.

 

[BabuBoat]

Once I get her in a sling, I will update progress here. Thanks everyone for their helpful suggestions and special mention to @Terry Cox whose sharing of his Hunter experience set me at ease.

 

[dlochner]

Dropping the keel is probably not necessary. If it becomes necessary to drop the keel, it can be done without any significant damage to the hull unless someone did something really stupid like setting the keel into thickened epoxy. Gravity is your friend along with lots of wedges and Marine Debond to help release the 5200. Best to have an experienced yard to this.

Since the boat has had a hard grounding it is important to check the hull laminate around the keel. When the keel gets jammed up into the hull it can cause the fiberglass to delaminate. Test it by sounding the hull with a plastic hammer. Any dull sounding areas are suspect.

 

[Stephen Griffin]

Greetings...Maybe you've already done this, but make sure your bilge pump is in good working order...It connects either to the boat's 12v system, or can run off shore power with an inverter that's used to step down the voltage...Solar panels can also be used to keep your battery(s) charged, along with a monitor to control the battery's state of charge...Please keep us posted on your diagnosis & your solution(s)...Best of luck!

 

[LoriPetersen]

Sorry you’re going through this, I’ve been through similar from a hard grounding that has never been fully resolved in the 15 yrs since it occurring. Won’t go into the details but I’ve always been told by more than one boatyard that if the keel needs to be removed then the mast must come off first because otherwise it is top-heavy and unsafe. In a nutshell my results were good removing the mast and keel and rebedding the keel but only for about 10 years when it showed leaks on the outside and in the bilge. Granted about 5 years into that repair it experienced another hard grounding (I need to pay more attention when others are at the helm!). Second repair attempt: the yard dug out the old bedding from the outside and rebedded it without removing the keel. This was 3 years ago, it resolved all outside leaking (so far) but I still have the tiniest weepage around one of the keelbolts whenever the boat is not sitting still. It’s good enough for me, I can’t keep throwing money at it and I do not think the keel will fall off. For what its worth removing/resetting mast and keel is about $20-25k, probably more with inflation.

 

[vaddison]

I bought a new H38 in 2006 and it leaked from the keel bolts right from the start. (Bilge pump lighting off was the first clue). I told Hunter to come and get the boat because I was returning it. They insisted they could make it right. First they hauled it and used 5200 under the nuts. (Didn’t work.). Then they hauled it again and put backing plates and 5200. (Didn’t work.) They hauled it a third time and glassed in the joint between the keel and hull from the outside. I haven’t had any problems since.

 

[BabuBoat]

Sorry you’re going through this, I’ve been through similar from a hard grounding that has never been fully resolved in the 15 yrs since it occurring. Won’t go into the details but I’ve always been told by more than one boatyard that if the keel needs to be removed then the mast must come off first because otherwise it is top-heavy and unsafe. In a nutshell my results were good removing the mast and keel and rebedding the keel but only for about 10 years when it showed leaks on the outside and in the bilge. Granted about 5 years into that repair it experienced another hard grounding (I need to pay more attention when others are at the helm!). Second repair attempt: the yard dug out the old bedding from the outside and rebedded it without removing the keel.

Horrors!!

Lori, stainless steel keel bolts? I take it their condition was good enough to use as is? I'm told that hauling and sealing the seam will just lock the nasty water inside and continue the deterioration.

I guessed maybe 10k for the job. Eeek!!!

/m

 

[BabuBoat]

I bought a new H38 in 2006 and it leaked from the keel bolts right from the start. (Bilge pump lighting off was the first clue). I told Hunter to come and get the boat because I was returning it. They insisted they could make it right. First they hauled it and used 5200 under the nuts. (Didn’t work.). Then they hauled it again and put backing plates and 5200. (Didn’t work.) They hauled it a third time and glassed in the joint between the keel and hull from the outside. I haven’t had any problems since.

Third time is a charm? Maybe same here: leaking since the original splash.

This adds more worry about keel bolt condition, if so...

 

[dlochner]

Third time is a charm? Maybe same here: leaking since the original splash.

This adds more worry about keel bolt condition, if so...

Leaking might be a good sign, since it means the water is being fresher and is not stagnating and becoming oxygen deprived.