Toilet bowl unwanted filling

jviss · Jul 28, 2017

I would be concerned that you could sink the boat! I'm not an expert, but I wouldn't want the "flapper" (joker) valve standing between the boat and the bottom of the sea.

On my 1984 C36, the toilet discharge hose leads to the top of the holding tank. The discharge is from the bottom of the tank to a "T", one branch of which goes to the deck waste fitting, the other to the macerator pump then through-hull with seacock. The seacock is normally closed, handle removed (per USCG regs).

I don't know how, on mine, the toilet could back up, unless the tank was absolutely full - it has tried to back up in this condition, but leaks out the vent onto the deck first.

Note, I do not have a direct, toilet to sea connection; it only goes to the tank.

Peggie Hall HeadMistress · Jul 28, 2017

Let's address the overboard side first: If your toilet is below waterline, sea water is rising in the bowl to the waterline. The solution: a vented loop in the toilet discharge line that's at least 6-8" above waterline at max heel, not just when the boat is at rest...which puts about 2-3 FEET above the bowl on most sailboats. Put it immediately after the toilet...iow, aim the discharge fitting straight up. That requires a 90 degree discharge fitting, if yours is a straight fitting call Jabsco to order a 90. 978-282-5246 is the direct line to Paul Campagna, Jabsco's tech support guy.

You also need a vented loop in the flush water intake line...it does NOT go between the thru-hull and pump...it MUST be installed between the pump and the bowl, which will require replacin the short piece of hose that connects them with two hoses long enough to put it the same height above the toilet as the discharge loop. You'll see illustrations of the correct locations for vented loops in the installation instructions: Jabsco Manual Twist & Lock owners manual Also see the photos I've attached.

Now let's talk about the backup from the holding tank: I'm betting that it's an uphill run from the toilet to the tank and that you're not flushing long enough in the dry mode for the flushes to get there, so they're running back to the bowl. Tank contents may also be spilling into the toilet discharge line when the boat is heeled. The vented loop in the toilet discharge line will keep water from getting TO the bowl from the tank and the thru-hull, but a li'l doodad called a joker valve (one way valve in the toilet discharge fitting...see the exploded drawing in the instruction manual) is needed to keep it OUT of the bowl, and yours is obviously worn out. Joker valves should be replaced in all toilets at least annually.

The vented loop in the toilet discharge line can actually increase the number of flushes your tank can hold while reducing the number of times you have to pump the toilet once you learn how to use the dry mode to do more than just push the last bit of water out of the bowl: Any toilet that's working anywhere close to spec--which includes having a joker valve in good shape--can move bowl contents VERTICALLY up to 4' in the dry mode....more than enough to move 'em over the top of the loop...then gravity can get it the rest of the way to the tank. If your toilet can't push the bowl contents over the loop, replace the joker valve. So--ahead of use, pump a couple of times to wet the bowl if for only urine and TP ...add a couple of beer cupfuls of water from the sink ahead of solid waste. Pump enough times in the DRY mode to push the bowl contents over the top of the loop, then switch to wet for only a few flushes to rinse the line behind the flush.

One more thing: although my book is titled "Get Rid of Boat Odors" (see link in my signature), it's actually a comprehensive "marine toilets and holding tanks 101" manual that will teach you how to prevent 99% of problems instead of having to fix 'em. It's available from the sbo.online store....just click on the link. And I'm always glad to answer any questions it doesn't.

Skipper · Jul 28, 2017

JosefR said:
I'm guessing I'm pumping the same half gallon of water out repeatedly.

This observation tells me it's the joker valve. Either deteriorated, wrong part, or improperly installed.
(I'm assuming the boat has an elevated vented loop).
One way to test this, and also a way to temporarily solve the symptom but not the underlying problem, is to continue to pump after the bowl has been evacuated. Maybe 10 more pumps. This will force out whatever is in the line to the loop top using air. If you put your ear close to the loop top while pumping, you can hear the water passing through until it's empty and silent.
If your bowl does not then refill, then the original problem is almost certainly the joker.

Edit: Peggy beat me to the post

Nother edit: I replace the word "Y valve" with "loop top" in my above post.
My Y valve is right at the loop top (pic) hence my subconscious error.

jviss · Jul 28, 2017

Peggy's post is excellent, thank. Only are where I quibble is that I don't think replacing a joker valve is an annual maintenance task. I hate to say how old mine is, and still working perfectly. I have a spare on board for when I need it.

Ron20324 · Jul 28, 2017

In the Jabsco pump, use the Raritan C253 joker valve. It is of a more robust construction of the duckbill type, whereas Jabsco has three vanes that I found distorts easier.

Peggie Hall HeadMistress · Jul 28, 2017

jviss said:
I don't think replacing a joker valve is an annual maintenance task. I hate to say how old mine is, and still working perfectly.

I don't think so....in fact, if it's more than a couple of years old, you have to pump your toilet up to twice as times as you did when it was new...or the same number of pumps is leaving waste in the line. You don't realize it because it happens so gradually. Find my article "joker valve 101" to learn why.

jviss · Jul 28, 2017

I may, indeed, take a look at it. It seems to work just fine, doesn't back up, normal flushing performance. I got the boat when it was 16 years old, so don't know prior history.

By the way, the link you provided to the Jabsco installation instructions goes to www.xylemflowcontrol.com/files/itemdoc142681.pdf, not the Jabsco instructions.
Update: found it! http://www.xylemflowcontrol.com/files/29090_29120-2000_43000-0686.pdf

jviss · Jul 28, 2017

I'd like to see the Jabsco instructions. I don't think I've ever seen a vented loop in the waste line. Mine has a vented loop in the salt water input line, and I think it's before the pump.

DayDreamer41 · Jul 28, 2017

http://www.marlow-hunter.com/wp-content/themes/marlowhunter/export/Vendor-Manuals/

Look at Jabsco Manual Flush cut sheet

jviss · Jul 28, 2017

I don't think I've ever seen a vented loop in the waste line, since I've only seen toilets plumbed to holding tanks. Mine has a vented loop in the salt water input line, and I think it's before the pump.

I don't think a vented loop is necessary for a waste line that goes only to a tank. If there's a "Y" valve between toilet and tank with one branch going to a through-hull, then yes, for sure.

"Joker valves should be replaced in all toilets at least annually." If not annually, then how often?

Newport Bob · Jul 28, 2017

Josef,
Another thought, the handle is in the off position BUT is the valve closed?

Peggie Hall HeadMistress · Jul 28, 2017

jviss said:
"Joker valves should be replaced in all toilets at least annually." If not annually, then how often?

A liveaboard cruising couple with only one head who are continuously aboard might need to change it every six months. A "weekend warrior" in a climate that has a short season might be able to get away with replacing it every other year as part of spring recommissioning.

So you "may indeed take a look" at the joker valve 101 article... Afraid you might learn something if you do?

jviss said:
I'd like to see the Jabsco instructions. I don't think I've ever seen a vented loop in the waste line. Mine has a vented loop in the salt water input line, and I think it's before the pump.

If it is, it's in the wrong place.

This set of instructions is a bit more complete than the ones you found Jabsco Manual Twist & Lock owners manual (and btw, I updated the link in my previous post to match this one...thanks for catching it). The drawings on page 4 show the correct locations for inlet and discharge vented loops, not only on Jabsco manual toilets, but you'll also find similar drawings in the instructions for all manual toilets and also for electric toilets that have a hose connecting the pump to the bowl.

Although vented loops are needed in the discharge line on any toilet that flushes directly overboard, even if there's a y-valve in the line that provides a choice of going overboard or into the tank. As you'll see in the photo I posted above, the best place to put it is immediately after the toilet before the y-valve because the same loop will also prevent runback from the tank from reaching the toilet. A loop--though it doesn't have to be a vented loop--in the line from a toilet that only flushes into a tank can serve the same purpose and also help to reduce the amount of flush water needed (see post #2).

jviss · Jul 29, 2017

Can you please provide a link to the article?

SFS · Jul 29, 2017

jviss said:
Can you please provide a link to the article?

She may be talking about a chapter in her very good (and IMHO, indispensable) book. In the meantime, check out this thread, and pay particular attention to posts 5 and 14:

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f115/joker-replacement-64456.html

Peggie Hall HeadMistress · Jul 29, 2017

Post # 14 in that thread. However a search of the archives on this site should turn up at least 3 times that I've posted it here...and yes, it's also in my book, available from the online store on this site (see link in my signature).

jviss · Jul 29, 2017

Peggie Hall HeadMistress said:
Post # 14 in that thread. However a search of the archives on this site should turn up at least 3 times that I've posted it here...and yes, it's also in my book, available from the online store on this site (see link in my signature).

Got it, thanks.

jviss · Jul 29, 2017

The whole truth, now. O.K., so I'm on my boat, a 1984 Catalina 36, with a Wilcox-Crittenden Head-Mate. I have never rebuilt or otherwise repaired it, except to tighten the packing nut on the pump shaft, maybe ever couple of years, only when it needed it. I've had the boat since 2001. We only flush with salt water, make sure we flush well, i.e., lots of water. We use the boat most weekends in the summer, and at least two whole weeks of cruising each year.

On the boat when I bought it was a rebuild kit, part number 1520, and the date on the kit is 09/19/1991. So, I doubt the head has ever been rebuilt. The kit is pretty complete, I think, since it includes the inlet valve cover, inlet valve cam, vacuum breaker finger, and some other parts that are apparently no longer included, and less some parts the new kits include, like a pump handle. The rubber parts seem very good, none the worse for age.

I may actually take a whack at a rebuild, as soon as I can get some Sea Lube. I think my boat yards chandlery carries. it. I will try to make an objective measurement or observation of performance, before and after, and report back, if I get to it.

JamesG161 · Jul 29, 2017

I never replace my Joker Valve per se. I found this was better.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001794BS0/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1

This gets it all. Cleaner to change too.

________
Anecdote: The previous owner had 4 rebuild kits on board. Each kit about $60 each. The Sea Trails mechanic noted one head was leaking. He bought a brand new rebuild kit and couldn't stop a "salt water" leak on pump top. Gave me credit because the rebuild didn't work either. The problem was the PO used a long wood screw as substitute for one of the 4 screws and the mechanic didn't notice it either.

Jim...

PS: On my boat there is a "high point" loop from Head to Hold tank. Mine is NOT vented type. It is called a "seal loop" , similar to my Diesel engine exhaust. The height of the top of the seal loop is higher than the healed waterline.

Toilet bowl unwanted filling

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